Aspiring law student seeking info from lawyers

[Anonymous]

I went to a mid-tier law school on a full scholarship, and am really grateful for the opportunities that no law school debt provided. I went to work for the federal government after law school, and enjoy what I do, for the most part. It is a lot of research and writing, but I like doing that, so it works for me. What I do not like is having constant confrontations with opposing counsel - I did not realize what a large part of the job stupid discovery disputes etc. would be.

[Anonymous]

Govt lawyer here with a SAHW. I hated law school and never had aspirations to be Perry Mason. I still get angry half way through reading my alumni mag and crumple it up and then rip it to shreds to get out my frustrations and I don't send them money, it's pathetic, less than 10% of graduates do because unless you were in the top 10% you probably hated it too. At least it was a state school with low tuition so I could pay off my debt fast and it was a good state school in the top 50.

Fortunately I found my sub specialization field in law school (despite not being on law review, having good grades, getting any interviews or even having a job lined up afterwards) and then got an LL.M. at a very prestigious school in the field and did extremely well which then helped me get a job. It is all about the first job in a field. Once you get that, then perhaps a few publications or speaking engagements, some contacts, a good reputation and then 10 years out I feel in control of my life with options.

Still though I had no idea that when I started I would end up in this area of law. I think law school is a little like a crap shoot in terms of what field you'll end up in. I know people who really wanted to do criminal law and then would up doing anti trust. So I would not view it as a done deal that you would end up in family law.

In this economy, I would never go to a private school unless it was a top 20, e.g., Harvard, Georgetown, Yale, etc. I would consider going to any good state school if you could get in state tuition after a year but that might not be possible since you'd have to relocate your family--UVA is pretty far away, U MD is close by but you might not be able to get in state tuition.

Even going to a very reasonable tuition school (I'll say down right cheap) and then getting an LL.M. at a private school I was still $100K in debt 10 years ago. So I worked private sector for 5 years, paid it all off, and then saved a ton. None of that would have been possible without doing very well in an LL.M. program. Also I never would have been able to work in Govt straight out, debt is too high, and starting salaries suck.

So in short, unless you do very well or don't have to worry about the cost, law school is a hit or miss proposition. I know people way smarter than I am that have not found their way and who I would say, law school was a waste.

[Anonymous]

Some people advise going to a good law school (but not top 20) and then doing very well, i.e., being in top 10% of your class. This is easier said than done. Every student thinks they are going to be in the top 10% but obviously only 10% are. I think you'd still be better going to a top 20 school rather than assuming you'll be a super stud at a less well known school.

Law school is all encompassing. You could do it when married without kids and I know some people that did it with small kids but you're asking a hell of a lot from your spouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Tuitions aren't that different - but a lower tier school is much more likely to offer a full-ride if you have high LSATS blah blah blah. It's a trade-off though, and don't let anyone tell you differently. People still look at the school even if you graduated at the top of your class. Plus, the connections you make at a top tier school are valuable, and you are much more likely to be considered for a clerkship - of any sort. That said, in this economy it does feel good to not have any student debt. And there is no guarantee at a lower-tier school that you will graduate top of your class - there are others that are just as smart if not smarter than you there as well.

Repeat after me: OP does not want to go into BigLaw. She does not need a clerkship. What she needs is an internship with a non-profit in the field in which she is interested. Plus, I hate to disabuse you, but I clerked for a US Court of Appeals Judge coming out of a third tier law school. The only time I thought my lack of a big name school might have held me back was for a Supreme Court clerkship - I didn't get it even though I did get the interview. I know several people who clerked for the Supremes, and I can assure you none of them were scraping by in the top 20%, 30% or 40% at their top tier schools. You do not get a free pass on your crappy grades in life just because your diploma say H/Y/S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some people advise going to a good law school (but not top 20) and then doing very well, i.e., being in top 10% of your class. This is easier said than done. Every student thinks they are going to be in the top 10% but obviously only 10% are. I think you'd still be better going to a top 20 school rather than assuming you'll be a super stud at a less well known school.

Law school is all encompassing. You could do it when married without kids and I know some people that did it with small kids but you're asking a hell of a lot from your spouse.

This. Very much like a playing the lottery--this kind of lottery is played by very intelligent law school students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to a mid-tier law school on a full scholarship, and am really grateful for the opportunities that no law school debt provided. I went to work for the federal government after law school, and enjoy what I do, for the most part. It is a lot of research and writing, but I like doing that, so it works for me. What I do not like is having constant confrontations with opposing counsel - I did not realize what a large part of the job stupid discovery disputes etc. would be.

This is me, too.

I do litigation for a govt. agency and find that Plaintiff's counsel often take cases based on very little information and/or are not very discriminating in their case selection. Then, it is a constant battle as they search for something -anything- to help them make the case that they never should have brought in the first place. I really dislike the constant disputes over every little, tiny thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Repeat after me: OP does not want to go into BigLaw. She does not need a clerkship. What she needs is an internship with a non-profit in the field in which she is interested. Plus, I hate to disabuse you, but I clerked for a US Court of Appeals Judge coming out of a third tier law school. The only time I thought my lack of a big name school might have held me back was for a Supreme Court clerkship - I didn't get it even though I did get the interview. I know several people who clerked for the Supremes, and I can assure you none of them were scraping by in the top 20%, 30% or 40% at their top tier schools. You do not get a free pass on your crappy grades in life just because your diploma say H/Y/S.

Yeah, you do, if you have the right connections. But, don't get me wrong, clerkships are a whole 'nother thing - and I certainly wasn't implying that they are easy to get if you are Ivy League - just easier to get your foot in the door - you still have to have amazing writing and verbal skills as well as razor-sharp intellect (from what I've seen anyway). And you're right, a clerkship is not necessary - I was getting sidetracked by the ancillary argument of top tier vs. other tier schools.

To your point, yes, she needs an internship in the field she wants - but the best way to get internships is through connections, and it just seems that top law schools do a better job of networking its grads than lower-tier (from an outsider looking in). That said, if she already has connections from her prior experience, maybe she doesn't need this help.

To the OP's question though, if I had to do it again, I would, but I don't think I would if I had been married with kids. That first year is a doozy for messing with your head.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the others - don't do it.

I graduated from a state u. law school with only $10K in debt, so didn't/don't have the financial challenges some of the PPs do, but I still wouldn't do it all over again.

[Anonymous]

Haven't read all of these replies but my DH is in law school right now and we've been doing a LOT of research on the various loan forgiveness plans. if you are going to be doing something low paying in the public interest sector then there are lots of options and there are more being put into effect right now. I will ask him for some resources and report back if you are interested.

I'm not a lawyer but I will tell you that my DH talked about going to law school from the minute I met him. He left a great job to do it and while a risk, I never wanted him to regret not taking the chance and going. Its what he has always wanted to do - if that means things are tight financially for us for a while then so be it. We're living on 1 income and doing just fine and he LOVES law school and is so much happier now!

[Anonymous]

"To your point, yes, she needs an internship in the field she wants - but the best way to get internships is through connections, and it just seems that top law schools do a better job of networking its grads than lower-tier (from an outsider looking in)."

I totally disagree with this - that is a very Big Law attitude. There are many legal employers, especially in the legal aid/social services sector, who don't want to hire someone from a top tier law school or with big law experience. They don't want to deal with a (perceived) prima donna who may demand salary/benefits/support staff that they can't provide, or they don't want to hire someone who is going to leave to go to the next best thing in a few years, or they don't want to hire someone who is going to have an attitude and second-guess their supervision, or they don't believe that 1-2 years at Big Law has actually trained someone to go to court without supervision, to handle her cases independently, etc.

There is a whole other world of legal work, albeit lower paying legal work, that most Big Law/top tier school types never see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"

I totally disagree with this - that is a very Big Law attitude. There are many legal employers, especially in the legal aid/social services sector, who don't want to hire someone from a top tier law school or with big law experience. They don't want to deal with a (perceived) prima donna who may demand salary/benefits/support staff that they can't provide, or they don't want to hire someone who is going to leave to go to the next best thing in a few years, or they don't want to hire someone who is going to have an attitude and second-guess their supervision, or they don't believe that 1-2 years at Big Law has actually trained someone to go to court without supervision, to handle her cases independently, etc.

There is a whole other world of legal work, albeit lower paying legal work, that most Big Law/top tier school types never see.

So, if you do go to a lower tier school, paradoxically, don't you dare take a big law position if offered to pay off those loans because then you're 2x stigmatized when you want to go gov't or non-profit.

[Anonymous]

PP, I both agree and disagree. I think that the competition for ALL legal jobs has gotten fierce as the market has tanked. What about all of the firms who paid their incoming classes to take a public interest job for a year. Places that do impact litigation like the ACLU hire from Ivies. I agree that public interest places try to screen out prima donas but there are plenty of top Gtown grads with a lot of public interest experience and top grades. All sectors of the legal market are under huge pressure right now.

Not surprised that PP's husband is happy in law school, for many lawyers it's the happiest time of their lives. Then reality hits.

OP, I think with a counseling background that you should be able to work your way into a very satisfying advocacy type job withou a law degree. The opportunity cost on every level of going back to school is tremendous. There are already far more lawyes who have passed the bar in this area than there will ever be legal jobs for. None of them forsaw it and you can't guarantee it won't be you. Given the economic realities, changing fields doesn't come with any safety net these days. I would guess that counseling would satisfy a need to help people. What is it you are lookinf for in a job? What about working at something like the Women's Center that provides support and advocacy on many levels? What about dipping your toe into the legal field and looking for a paralegal job?

[Anonymous]

I think Adequate Parent has nailed it.

People go to law school for many reasons and want a lot of things that they think come with the practice of law. For some it's a feeling of status, prestige, a stamp of being "smart". For others it is saving the world. With your background you are in a better position than most to sort out what you are look for OP.

Then set about finding a way to make a difference now, without huge financial investments and a huge shift in focus away from the career and family you have for 3-4 years with absolutely no guarantee of a legal job of any sort. There is a huge restructuring going on in the legal field. You need to think of the degree as an economic investment and at this point in time it does not make sense. Don't roll the dice to meet emotional needs.

If you are a SAHM start volunteering. If not, sometimes places like Bread for the City or Whitman Walker offer legal service clinics on weekends or in the evenings. There is a lot that a non-lawyer can be trained to do, from helping with SSI apps, landlord tenant or immigration issues, you could help kids as a CASA volunteer. Ramp up your prior career and then try to move in a direction that satisfies your longer term goals.

[Anonymous]

Man. I loved law school, love being a lawyer, and love my biglaw litigation job. Really.

[Anonymous]

I'm the one who mentioned the deferral fellowships, sorry to be unclear. Point was that you can't just say that "wanna be poor do gooders" are the only ones who are competing for PI jobs. I have 2009 grad friends who had good grades and good experience and they couldn't compete with "free" help that year. One is actually in danger of losing her house, she is "overqualified" for non-legal jobs and underqualified for legal jobs due to the competition. She is volunteering right now for experience and bartending at night.

OP, I don't mean to snark but several SAHM friends kind of feel like when they go back to work it has to somehow be "ideal" or meet a lot of emotional needs of theirs. It may even be difficult to get a job in your old field if you haven't been working. The time and $ invested in a legal career as a second career in this market just makes no sense financially and I'm not saying that you want to make a mint. A lot of people who lost their jobs went back to work.