Aspiring law student seeking info from lawyers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Start your exploration by talking to people at the Children's Law Center and WEAVE. There are tons of non-profits in the DC area on almost every issue. Even if you end up deciding not to go to law school, you may be able to get involved in the issues about which you care throughvolunteering with these groups.

I don't agree that you need to go immerse yourself in Above the Law. Although I agree with the PPs that law school is very expensive now, and that the top paying law firm jobs are hard to get, I don't think that is necessarily the end of your inquiry. If you are not shooting for a job at a top firm, it doesn't matter that you went to George Mason or UMD instead of Yale. The posters on Above the Law tend to post about a very small part of the legal profession - top firms in major cities. I am not sure that the chasing of the almighty dollar that goes on at ATL in boom times (NY to 190K anybody?) and the hysteria about big firm layoffs in bust times is particularly relevant to you.

The bottom line is that you shouldn't go into massive debt for a professional degree period. If you can't figure out another way to make it work, then keep looking.

While I agree that this isn't relevant to the poster in the sense she should read up on it on ATL, I do think it's relevant in that because law firms are laying off, former firm employees are now competing for the same public interest jobs in which OP is interested. So just as law firm employment is more competitive, so is public interest.

[Anonymous]

Agree with the PP. There is fierce competition for low(er) paying public interest and prosecution jobs. These jobs are often either quite prestigious despite the lower pay (see lots of prosecutor jobs) or are considered great stepping stones, particularly for people with political aspirations.

[Anonymous]

I don't think you can equate an in-house job at a small non-profit with a position in the US Attorney's Office or DOJ. From time to time I see job postings for non-profits looking for lawyers because they have not been able to fill the position without a broad search. I'm not saying the OP will have her choice of six positions, but I think people are overstating the problem a little bit. There are not that many big firm associates who start as first years at $160K a year who are then willing to turn around and work for $45K-60K. Plus they have no relevant experience. Securities litigation does not a domestic violence expert make. I also think OP's background gives her a leg up.

[Anonymous]

OP,
Lawyer here married to another lawyer who just finished law school as a second career. I did a lot of public interest legal work early in my career. I think, with your background, that you should try to find a job using the skill set that you have. Law school has become insanely expensive and going to school with little kids is a huge burden on a family in the short and long term. I can speak to that from my own recent experience. It sounds like doing some type of advocacy work is your dream? Can you articulate in more detail what your goals are? I am confident that you will be able to find some way to achieve them and bring about a lot of good in the world without incurring $140,000 plus interest in debt. Seriously, you need to think about your retirement and college tuition, and in most places that is mortgage debt. When it would take you many years of work to significantly pay it back, I would think about what needs you are looking to satisfy. Is it prestige? Even public interest places will take the top grads if they can get them and more people than you think are independently wealthy or have a very well paid spouse. I'd seriously think about the kind of work you can do, which is of more immediate value to kids than most things a lawyer can do. You might be sad to find the types of jobs you will be forced to take with that kind of debt, and working 2,000 plus hours per year is not a family friendly career. Could you go back to your old career and get the legal "hit" by becoming a CASA volunteer?

[Anonymous]

Personally, there is no way I could have managed law school for three years while taking care of kids. Law school is all-consuming, as is studying for the Bar. Secondly, I'm not sure it's worth the financial investment unless (1) you're financially independent and money isn't an issue or (2) you paln to work at a firm, which isn't conducive to a balanced work-family life. I am a govt. lawyer because I wanted a low stress job that gave me an opportunity to spend time with my family. I am one of the lucky few whose family paid for law school. If I had law school debt, I'm not sure if I would even break even after paying taxes and childcare.

[Anonymous]

I am also a lawyer married to a lawyer, and both of us are unsure we would do it again if we could go back in time. We both had to take out loans to pay for it, and the cumulative total of all of that is massive and depressing. It's also frustrating to be "stuck" in this field because I have to make a certain salary to pay the loans back. I went straight to law school from college, which was an incredibly stupid decision. At the time I had no concept of how much it was going to cost me and I'm not sure I even thought about whether or not I would actually like the job. I think I was more focused on the schooling. Also, the fact that in general, lawyers deal with conflicts and problems is so against my anti-confrontational personality. I did end up with a pretty easy and very family-friendly attorney job, but I don't get paid as well as I could, and we will be paying back student loans forever.

I would echo what others have said, to get some real information from attorneys working in the exact field you would want to end up in. I would strongly advise against anyone going to law school unless they know exactly what they want to do, and they have a very specific goal/plan in mind. Unless you have it paid for by some other means, it is a HUGE debt to take on, and in my opinion, not really worth it.

Sorry this comes off so negatively!

[Anonymous]

I agree with the general chorus OP that law school is not a very good idea unless you know exactly what you will do after or are independently wealthy. I would disagree though that you need to go to a top school. You are better off doing very well at a lower ranked school where you will graduate with less debt than you are doing ok at a top ranked school with lots of debt. Job prospects will be similar. If finances are a concern I would advise: night school at Georgetown, George Mason or GW (do they have a night program?) (of these three pick the cheapest one for you) and spend your days interning or volunteering at the type of organization that you want to work at. Work your butt off to get great grades, and hopefully you can get a job at one of the places you interned when you graduate.

[Anonymous]

Maybe get a grad degree in social work OP ...it sounds like that would be a better fit and much cheaper. I am lawyer and I talked to a friend at a huge law firm that used to hire 30 summer associates a year. Now they only hire 2 a year. Very sad.

[Anonymous]

Amen, 16:54. People like to think there is only one path (like the only way you can get your son to an Ivy-league college is to get him into St. Albans, but that's another thread!). There isn't. Going to a not-so-great law school but getting very top grades means practically any job is open to you (except perhaps clerking for the Supreme Court), but you will have far less debt at the end of the day than your peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Amen, 16:54. People like to think there is only one path (like the only way you can get your son to an Ivy-league college is to get him into St. Albans, but that's another thread!). There isn't. Going to a not-so-great law school but getting very top grades means practically any job is open to you (except perhaps clerking for the Supreme Court), but you will have far less debt at the end of the day than your peers.

I was not aware that tuitions are all that different?

OP, are you currently working? How much control do you have over your time? Government lawyers may have better hours than people at big firms but the pay scale is vastly different. As in, the top salary in the govt after many years is lower than the firm starting salary. Since the big firm market has tanked, the competition for those jobs has become intense, like 100s of resumes for a single position.

Whether you go to a lower tier school like AU or an upper tier school like Gtown you will owe an incredible amount of money. My spouse went to Gtown at night as a third career and he graduated owing over $120,000. He hates his big firm job and we actually have less money now than before he was a lawyer due to the crushing loan payments. Law school can be really fun but then reality hits. Many of his classmates still don't have jobs. If you were willing to move to an area with a lower cost of living and go to a state school it would be cheaper, but still very expensive (like Ohio State).

I'd try to figure out a way to do good that doesn't require you to pay for another degree. If you have a counseling background, do you have an MSW? Can you look for a position at an advocacy organization? Much of what lawyers do at non-profits is not actually practicing law anyway. I have friends who are non-practicing lawyers who do work like organizing.

[Anonymous]

Tuitions aren't that different.

http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/tuition.php/3/desc/State08

For some reason they lump most of the DC area schools into MD, although some are actually in DC. Gtown costs about $2,000 more than AU. I don't think UDC is an accredited school anymore but that may have changed. Otherwise, not a huge difference to my eye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amen, 16:54. People like to think there is only one path (like the only way you can get your son to an Ivy-league college is to get him into St. Albans, but that's another thread!). There isn't. Going to a not-so-great law school but getting very top grades means practically any job is open to you (except perhaps clerking for the Supreme Court), but you will have far less debt at the end of the day than your peers.

I was not aware that tuitions are all that different?

OP, are you currently working? How much control do you have over your time? Government lawyers may have better hours than people at big firms but the pay scale is vastly different. As in, the top salary in the govt after many years is lower than the firm starting salary. Since the big firm market has tanked, the competition for those jobs has become intense, like 100s of resumes for a single position.

Whether you go to a lower tier school like AU or an upper tier school like Gtown you will owe an incredible amount of money. My spouse went to Gtown at night as a third career and he graduated owing over $120,000. He hates his big firm job and we actually have less money now than before he was a lawyer due to the crushing loan payments. Law school can be really fun but then reality hits. Many of his classmates still don't have jobs. If you were willing to move to an area with a lower cost of living and go to a state school it would be cheaper, but still very expensive (like Ohio State).

I'd try to figure out a way to do good that doesn't require you to pay for another degree. If you have a counseling background, do you have an MSW? Can you look for a position at an advocacy organization? Much of what lawyers do at non-profits is not actually practicing law anyway. I have friends who are non-practicing lawyers who do work like organizing.

The tuitions usually aren't what's different (unless you are in a state that subzisides public law school tuition), but what's different are the scholarships that are more widespread at lower ranked schools. My DH and I both went to a T2 school--we both got scholarships, although he got many more than I did and only owed about 20K after law school.

[Anonymous]

to 16:54 and 17:08 - the problem with going to a less prestigious school and getting top grades vs going to a top school is that there's no guarantee you'll be able to make those top grades. And because most students see being in the top 10% of the class as essential at such schools, the competition is extremely intense. OTOH, a top school isn't going to lose its reputation overnight, and hitting at least the top half or so is a pretty attainable goal (especially since a lot of top schools don't rank, and grades are very bunched together, making it hard for employers to distinguish b/w 40th and 60th percentiles)

[Anonymous]

17:08 here. You all are forgetting that the OP does NOT want a job at a megafirm. When I was coming out of school, also in a recession (yes, I am am ancient), to get a job at a very top firm out of a second or third tier school, you had to have a single digit class rank (not percentage; hard number) at the end of your first year and been invited to join the law review. And they don't hire as deep as the top 40% even in a top school, either, so your calculations about the relative difficulty of getting the needed grades depending on schools may be a little off. In any event, those aren't the kind of jobs OP is trying to get. And the PP is right: there are a lot more scholarships available at the non-top schools. How do I know? I had one - and the single digit class rank, etc. (and less than a third or maybe even a quarter of the debt my colleagues who went to big name schools had). By the time the scholarships were all in, I think my tuition was $2900 a semester, so I borrowed only living expenses. I know all about the BigLaw game. That is not the game OP wants to play. She actually wants to help people and isn't in it for the money or the prestige of saying she works at a V5 firm. Stop making her think there is no way this can work. Let her at least look into it and try, and please keep the BigLaw goggles off for this discussion. She doesn't need to be in the top 20% at Harvard to have a prayer of getting hired by a non-profit in DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tuitions aren't that different.

http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/tuition.php/3/desc/State08

For some reason they lump most of the DC area schools into MD, although some are actually in DC. Gtown costs about $2,000 more than AU. I don't think UDC is an accredited school anymore but that may have changed. Otherwise, not a huge difference to my eye.

Tuitions aren't that different - but a lower tier school is much more likely to offer a full-ride if you have high LSATS blah blah blah. It's a trade-off though, and don't let anyone tell you differently. People still look at the school even if you graduated at the top of your class. Plus, the connections you make at a top tier school are valuable, and you are much more likely to be considered for a clerkship - of any sort. That said, in this economy it does feel good to not have any student debt. And there is no guarantee at a lower-tier school that you will graduate top of your class - there are others that are just as smart if not smarter than you there as well.