AP Statistics as a 10th grade elective

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Statistician here. There's a huge amount of calculus needed for Statistics but that doesn't mean it can't be taught at a basic level without calc.

Years ago the AP Stat exam I took had very little calculus in it, and yes it was an easier test than Calc BC

However I do think whatever course you take should have a practical component - will they teach R, SAS, Stata etc. Otherwise it's not that helpful for Research purposes...just my opinion.

Agree with the practical component, but not sure about R etc. the basics could be easily done in google sheets, or even on a graphing calculator like TI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Statistician here. There's a huge amount of calculus needed for Statistics but that doesn't mean it can't be taught at a basic level without calc.

Years ago the AP Stat exam I took had very little calculus in it, and yes it was an easier test than Calc BC

However I do think whatever course you take should have a practical component - will they teach R, SAS, Stata etc. Otherwise it's not that helpful for Research purposes...just my opinion.

Agree with the practical component, but not sure about R etc. the basics could be easily done in google sheets, or even on a graphing calculator like TI.

DP. That's what they did when my kid took it, about 5 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Statistician here. There's a huge amount of calculus needed for Statistics but that doesn't mean it can't be taught at a basic level without calc.

Years ago the AP Stat exam I took had very little calculus in it, and yes it was an easier test than Calc BC

However I do think whatever course you take should have a practical component - will they teach R, SAS, Stata etc. Otherwise it's not that helpful for Research purposes...just my opinion.

Agree with the practical component, but not sure about R etc. the basics could be easily done in google sheets, or even on a graphing calculator like TI.

AP Teacher--we play around in R after the AP test, but my seniors all leave at that point so basically only the underclassmen get the lesson. There is no time for doing it before the test (since it's not on the test). My goal is to help kids pass the exam, and until it is part of the exam I won't cover it before May.

Hopefully the exam updates the standards in the future-, but I don't think statistical software will show up for a while.

[Anonymous]

It’s the easiest math class in the entire curriculum

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s the easiest math class in the entire curriculum

It's the most important math class in the entire curriculum, in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

It’s not bothering me that you’re teaching the prescribed recipe that college board wants you to, it’s more that you decide posts are misinformation based on how you are teaching your own class, which from what you say, doesn’t seem too rigorous.

The response to the OP, there is the nuance that the same AP stats class can be taught differently before and after calculus, and often when taken early, like in the 10th grade, there are a lot of shortcuts, simplifications, ‘conceptualization’, and brushing over that can result in a poor score on the AP exam.

It's the same class, whether you take it in 10th grade, 11th grade, or 12th grade.

This. You have a mix of students with all different backgrounds. Usually there are 20-30 students per class. You cannot customize much for individual students. And don’t make the mistake of thinking that conceptual means easy. AP Physics 1 is conceptual but most students don’t find it an easy class or easy AP exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

It’s not bothering me that you’re teaching the prescribed recipe that college board wants you to, it’s more that you decide posts are misinformation based on how you are teaching your own class, which from what you say, doesn’t seem too rigorous.

The response to the OP, there is the nuance that the same AP stats class can be taught differently before and after calculus, and often when taken early, like in the 10th grade, there are a lot of shortcuts, simplifications, ‘conceptualization’, and brushing over that can result in a poor score on the AP exam.

It's the same class, whether you take it in 10th grade, 11th grade, or 12th grade.

This. You have a mix of students with all different backgrounds. Usually there are 20-30 students per class. You cannot customize much for individual students. And don’t make the mistake of thinking that conceptual means easy. AP Physics 1 is conceptual but most students don’t find it an easy class or easy AP exam.

Unfortunately in education speak, conceptual almost always means watered down, and nowhere is that more obvious than in the AP Physics 1 course. Among all AP math and science classes AP Physics 1&2 are probably the most misguided of all, they don’t do a good job in teaching the fundamentals, are not good for STEM major credits, and take way too long (2 years) for what is an introductory course. It’s so bad that I can’t think of a good situation to recommend it. For first encounter with physics, a high school level class works fine, for the students advanced in math, AP physics C is much better.

For statistics, I get that students come at different levels, but you often see just formulas thrown around when it would really be beneficial to spend a few minutes on the how and why. I’ve also seen AP Stat classes that never mention the explicit formula for the normal distribution and college board or not, there’s no excuse for it to be missing in what is a college level class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s the easiest math class in the entire curriculum

Only on the surface. I’ve posted before that fewer students get a 5 in AP Statistics than students getting a 5 in Calculus BC, only to have some clueless poster say it’s because stronger students take BC the weak students take Stat, and give some talking points they read somewhere on the internet.

For the interested here are the numbers:
https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-score-distributions-by-subject-2023.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

It’s not bothering me that you’re teaching the prescribed recipe that college board wants you to, it’s more that you decide posts are misinformation based on how you are teaching your own class, which from what you say, doesn’t seem too rigorous.

The response to the OP, there is the nuance that the same AP stats class can be taught differently before and after calculus, and often when taken early, like in the 10th grade, there are a lot of shortcuts, simplifications, ‘conceptualization’, and brushing over that can result in a poor score on the AP exam.

It's the same class, whether you take it in 10th grade, 11th grade, or 12th grade.

This. You have a mix of students with all different backgrounds. Usually there are 20-30 students per class. You cannot customize much for individual students. And don’t make the mistake of thinking that conceptual means easy. AP Physics 1 is conceptual but most students don’t find it an easy class or easy AP exam.

Unfortunately in education speak, conceptual almost always means watered down, and nowhere is that more obvious than in the AP Physics 1 course. Among all AP math and science classes AP Physics 1&2 are probably the most misguided of all, they don’t do a good job in teaching the fundamentals, are not good for STEM major credits, and take way too long (2 years) for what is an introductory course. It’s so bad that I can’t think of a good situation to recommend it. For first encounter with physics, a high school level class works fine, for the students advanced in math, AP physics C is much better.

For statistics, I get that students come at different levels, but you often see just formulas thrown around when it would really be beneficial to spend a few minutes on the how and why. I’ve also seen AP Stat classes that never mention the explicit formula for the normal distribution and college board or not, there’s no excuse for it to be missing in what is a college level class.

We will have to agree to disagree. AP Physics 1 has a very low pass rate.
It is a good foundational course that really gets students to think about physics. Perhaps you have only encountered bad AP Physics 1 teachers. My son had an amazing AP Physics 1 teacher in HS and he loved the class. He breezed through first year college physics as an engineering major as he said he had already developed a deep conceptual understanding of Mechanics in his AP Physics 1 class. You sound overly rigid and opinionated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

It’s not bothering me that you’re teaching the prescribed recipe that college board wants you to, it’s more that you decide posts are misinformation based on how you are teaching your own class, which from what you say, doesn’t seem too rigorous.

The response to the OP, there is the nuance that the same AP stats class can be taught differently before and after calculus, and often when taken early, like in the 10th grade, there are a lot of shortcuts, simplifications, ‘conceptualization’, and brushing over that can result in a poor score on the AP exam.

It's the same class, whether you take it in 10th grade, 11th grade, or 12th grade.

This. You have a mix of students with all different backgrounds. Usually there are 20-30 students per class. You cannot customize much for individual students. And don’t make the mistake of thinking that conceptual means easy. AP Physics 1 is conceptual but most students don’t find it an easy class or easy AP exam.

Unfortunately in education speak, conceptual almost always means watered down, and nowhere is that more obvious than in the AP Physics 1 course. Among all AP math and science classes AP Physics 1&2 are probably the most misguided of all, they don’t do a good job in teaching the fundamentals, are not good for STEM major credits, and take way too long (2 years) for what is an introductory course. It’s so bad that I can’t think of a good situation to recommend it. For first encounter with physics, a high school level class works fine, for the students advanced in math, AP physics C is much better.

For statistics, I get that students come at different levels, but you often see just formulas thrown around when it would really be beneficial to spend a few minutes on the how and why. I’ve also seen AP Stat classes that never mention the explicit formula for the normal distribution and college board or not, there’s no excuse for it to be missing in what is a college level class.

We will have to agree to disagree. AP Physics 1 has a very low pass rate.
It is a good foundational course that really gets students to think about physics. Perhaps you have only encountered bad AP Physics 1 teachers. My son had an amazing AP Physics 1 teacher in HS and he loved the class. He breezed through first year college physics as an engineering major as he said he had already developed a deep conceptual understanding of Mechanics in his AP Physics 1 class. You sound overly rigid and opinionated.

We’re definitely disagreeing on this. I’m glad that your son enjoyed the class, that does matter the most, but if I were to recommend one class it would be dual enrollment 3 semester calculus based physics.

Signed,
Course 8 PhD, ‘11

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

The PP is talking about the AP statistics course, and not the field of statistics in general. When DC did AP statistics, they did not need to apply calculus.

Here is what Collegeboard says about the prerequisites for AP statistics (https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-statistics-course-overview.pdf)

The AP Statistics course is an excellent option for any secondary
school student who has successfully completed a second-year course
in algebra and who possesses sufficient mathematical maturity and
quantitative reasoning ability. Because second-year algebra is the
prerequisite course, AP Statistics is usually taken in either the junior or
senior year.

You should take this issue up with Collegeboard instead of being rude to anonymous teachers here.

-- DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

The PP is talking about the AP statistics course, and not the field of statistics in general. When DC did AP statistics, they did not need to apply calculus.

Here is what Collegeboard says about the prerequisites for AP statistics (https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-statistics-course-overview.pdf)

The AP Statistics course is an excellent option for any secondary
school student who has successfully completed a second-year course
in algebra and who possesses sufficient mathematical maturity and
quantitative reasoning ability. Because second-year algebra is the
prerequisite course, AP Statistics is usually taken in either the junior or
senior year.

You should take this issue up with Collegeboard instead of being rude to anonymous teachers here.

-- DP

I’m can give my opinion on taking AP Statistics early. I stand by my view that one of the issues students should be aware is that the course is using calculus concepts, but it’s masking it by over reliance on formulaic recipes and looking up values in tables. Some students might find it hard to follow because sometimes it is taught as a course heavy on memorization without deep understanding.

We can surely go beyond a college board brochure to judge the contents of the course.

I would not be happy if my child’s Statistics teacher didn’t know as much. That’s why we want teacher with advanced degrees in math, so they give the student the principles, context implications. If the class is turned into a huge decision tree, like read carefully and decide what formula to apply, then that’s a disservice to the student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

It "feels" fluffy?? Well, Duh Sherlock, of course it's highly fluffy without calculus, and by extension, without a hint of how any of the formulas are derived! I counter your claim that "they want to spit out straight calculations"; the strong math students actually want to see at least some proofs and derivations, especially if they've taken calculus. So yes, the class IS fluffy, because you can't just handwave stuff and call it "logic" without actually covering some of the math behind it! You see the logic there?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Statistician here. There's a huge amount of calculus needed for Statistics but that doesn't mean it can't be taught at a basic level without calc.

Years ago the AP Stat exam I took had very little calculus in it, and yes it was an easier test than Calc BC

However I do think whatever course you take should have a practical component - will they teach R, SAS, Stata etc. Otherwise it's not that helpful for Research purposes...just my opinion.

No of course not, the AP Stats curriculum is worthless since it doesn't teach any language or practical way to understand the concepts. Therefore almost no students can actually learn anything; neither the kids who took calculus because it doesn't make logical sense without calculus, nor the ones who have never studied it and have to take for granted a bunch of formulas but don't have any way to build their intuition as you suggested through programming or practical applications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Stats at an IB school.

Yes, AP Stats is frequently taken as an elective before starting the IB sequence (at my school you take IB Analysis 1 followed by IB analysis 2, so keeping those two courses together is ideal). The only prerequisite for the course is algebra 2.

The prior posters have a bit of misinformation in their comments. There is no calculus, it is taught from a purely algebraic/conceptual standpoint, and honestly the kids who have already taken calculus have a tougher time with stats because they want to spit out straight calculations and stats is more logic/interpretation than calculation. It is a very conceptual course. The kids who go back to IB from AP stats tend to write very strong IAs.

The super strong math kids honestly have a hard time with stats because it feels "fluffy" to them. It's a logic course with an undertone of math, but it's not pure calculations.

If you teach Statistics and claim there are no calculus concepts in the class, then that’s really concerning, not being aware of basic things that calculating probabilities from critical z scores involves integration, I’m wondering if you actually have a degree in math, or what your professional background is.

Even your claims that statistics is more logic/interpretation than calculation and that it is a very conceptual course tell me all I need to know about how good of a teacher you are. Sure, your class is conceptual with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas but that doesn’t mean that’s what statistics is.

My degree is in math and I was a computer programmer before I became a teacher. The AP Statistics curriculum is extremely prescribed, there is no real room for going off into calculus. 90% of the kids who take the class haven't seen calculus, and only about half have even seen precalc. There is no room for calculus in the intro level material.

Sorry that bothers you. Please complain to the college board--I didn't decide what should be taught, I just teach it.

It’s not bothering me that you’re teaching the prescribed recipe that college board wants you to, it’s more that you decide posts are misinformation based on how you are teaching your own class, which from what you say, doesn’t seem too rigorous.

The response to the OP, there is the nuance that the same AP stats class can be taught differently before and after calculus, and often when taken early, like in the 10th grade, there are a lot of shortcuts, simplifications, ‘conceptualization’, and brushing over that can result in a poor score on the AP exam.

It's the same class, whether you take it in 10th grade, 11th grade, or 12th grade.

This. You have a mix of students with all different backgrounds. Usually there are 20-30 students per class. You cannot customize much for individual students. And don’t make the mistake of thinking that conceptual means easy. AP Physics 1 is conceptual but most students don’t find it an easy class or easy AP exam.

And the reason the AP Physics 1 is not easy to understand, is because... you guesses it... there is NO CALCULUS in it! It's exactly the same problem, without an excellent teacher who will go to greater lengths to explain the intuition behind the concepts and without any calculus, of course students will not see physics as logical and interconnected! It's the same situation as the the poor AP stats teacher earlier in the thread who was admitting that their only goal is to teach to the test!