Can someone explain the lure of selective colleges?
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Anonymous
Most of us don't know or care what the difference is. DP |
Anonymous
Flagship is more prestigious. |
Anonymous
I am sure there are many that went to those schools that are way more successful than you (considering, you likely don't have the last name of Bezos, Musk, Gates...although is this Warren Buffet on DCUM?). What is the median income of your Midwest state flagship after 10 years, 20 years, 40 years...is it the same or better than the elite schools (even accounting for the inherited wealth of elite grads)? |
Anonymous
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You get to name drop at cocktail parties put an an impressive magnet on you car. Honestly, it seems to be more about pride than substance. Because a college can be “prestigious” and not great for your kid’s specific needs, their goals, their area of study. Hello MIT English majors! I’m sure they are brilliant and MIT is also a hard admit in humanities. But my first thought is: so you couldn’t hack hardcore STEM. Because if you have credentials trial to get into MIT humanities, there are lots of highly ranked, less STEM-centric options.
In many cases IDK that selectivity of the college *overall* matters. VT Engineering bs VT College of Arts and Sciences are completely different ballgames, admissions wise. My kids will go on to grad school and terminal degree matters more. So USNWR overall ranking/ undergrad prestige name is much less important to us than rankings in undergrad teaching, class size, research/internship/ study abroad opportunities, the ever elusive “fit” and postgrad placement from their academic department. I want to see good grad school placement, Fulbright, Peace Corp and other fellowship placements (depending on major/career goals), good first job placement (if most kids don’t go to grad school), high starting salary etc. Some people would want to look at law, medical or business school placement. The name, in and of itself, doesn’t matter to me if the school doesn’t give my kid a rigorous education (including a lot of discussion and writing and essay based exams), have classes taught by professors, accessible professors and if it won’t get them where they want to go. Example: I went to a T25 school, was phi beta kappa, summa cum laude, etc. won departmental awards, hit the 99% on my GREs and majored in a department generally considered strong at the at school. I was 0/8 on PhD applications in my major. And 8/8 in law schools applications, including Duke, UVA (OOS),etc. Most law schools, including Duke, gave me merit aid. Turns out my college hadn’t placed anyone in a PhD program in my major or any adjacent in more than ten years. The school itself was widely considered to best for pre-professional students. But ROI and placement weren’t as big a deal 30 years ago and my parents never asked about it. My kids wouldn't know to check if we weren’t providing guidance. It’s probably best 22 year old me didn’t go for a humanities PhD. That wasn’t an employable idea. And my undergrad professors were great in many areas. But even knowing that my goal was a PhD, no one guided me toward the undergrad research and publishing that I would have needed to be competitive or gave me any advice on content of applications, where to apply, etc. Both my kids are in formal programs at their school that tell them each year what they need to be doing to meet post-grad goals. My undergrad college had strong pre-professional advising but zero humanities pre-Phd advising. It’s something I wish I had known going in. Strong department in selective school, but poor placement. And no amount of cocktail party name dropping/ impressive college stickers would have gotten me into a PhD program. Another example. I had a kid graduate from TJ. Which is selective and in certain circles is deemed impressive. I remain convinced it was the right choice for this particular kid because of their particular needs as a 2e student. The amount of hands on work in classes like prototyping was very helpful. But it was hard on everyone in our family, stressful and the kid got into the same range of schools as my base school kid. Would I have sent a kid just because it is selective/ impressive/ brag worthy? Heck to the NO. Was it enough better for my particular kid to justify the stress? IDK. I have one kid at WM the other at a SLAC. The schools check the boxes we care about listed above for small classes, placement in the field of study, etc. Now is WM selective? Increasingly so for NOVA, but obviously it’s a completely different (lower) level than the Ivys and Ivy adjacent schools. Is it impressive or prestigious? I guess more so than CNU and UMW, and less so than Michigan, UNC a top UC from OOS. What’s interesting is that the people who are most impressed with WM are the ones who have gone through college admissions recently— Gen X age. (And some parents who told me my kid could “do better” when they applied to WM ED or that my kid “should at least try for UVA” (my kid wasn’t interested) were a lot quieter in April when UVA and WM RD decisions came back and their kid/ May impressive kids were locked out. They started the college application process certain their kid would go to UVA (or VT Engineering) and referred to WM as a safety. But they underestimated the competition for these schools right now. And the kids are now at JMU, CNU, VCU, VT Arts and Sciences, GMU or less selective OOS flagships (THE Ohio State, Penn State, UC- Boulder, Illinois-Bloomington). Millennials and Boomers who went through college or put kids through college at a less competitive (less expensive for privates) time and seem to see WM as neutral. Not bad, but not that impressive. Of course, no one has heard of my other kid’s SLAC.  which by admission rates is more selective than WM.
IMO, there is actual selectivity and perceived selectivity and neither matter if it’s a bad fit, the school is weak in your kids area, or it’s my alma mater and you want a humanities PhD instead of law school. |
Anonymous
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Prestige and self-image that is self-perpetuating in certain circles are the main reasons.
There are tons of very wealthy people at state schools and at easier to get into private schools too. You get out of what you put into education and can get just as good of an education or better at many research flagships as any Ivy or whatever. |
Anonymous
So it's all about future income? I had a summer job (not even an internship) at the FAA in college. This is all so bizarre to me. |
Anonymous
I don't see it strictly as a class thing, but sure probably some of it is. The first one of the network is appealing because it benefits you professionally your whole life. The second one, well if you want to go into one of these fields, you can do it. Otherwise, it would be much more of struggle. The third one, some of us want to have an experience beyond how and where we grew up. I don't think everyone does and that's fine. |
Anonymous
But it IS hard for many people in the country to understand why working yourself to death to make $300k per year makes sense, when they have pretty much everything they ever wanted on an income of $100k per year. They just don’t get why it’s better to have 30 pairs of shoes than 10 pairs. Or why a $5k watch is better than a $200 watch. Or why a degree from Yale is worth all the fuss when Iowa State is just fine and a lot more fun. |
Anonymous
What are you basing this on though? There is zero question grads of these elite institutions continue to be over represented in higher levels of business, government, and culture in our society. So the fact that you've done better than 5 people you know who went to one of these schools doesn't really mean diddly. |
Anonymous
| So your kid can grow up to be like Senator Hawley, Senator Cruz, Senator Kennedy, Governor DeSantis or Donald Trump...the true Coastal Elites! |
Anonymous
Why? |
Anonymous
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I think these schools can be an absolute game changer for first gen kids and I would put that beyond even children of immigrants or first kids who went to college in their family. Even just game changer for genuinely working class American kids whose parents might have gone to college but are still just mostly getting by. It can launch a kid into another league of possibilities.
For kids already in that league by virtue of the family and wealth level they were born into, I don't think it's that big of a deal. These places are all about connections and relationships and the web of those connections and relationships and the benefits it provides. So either you have it already through your family of origin or you get into one of these places. |
Anonymous
Ask the people who care about such things. I suppose because land-grant and normal schools were geared toward farmers, ex-military, and black students? |
Anonymous
You’re showing your Midwest roots. Most on this board do not regard 250k as UMC, at all. |
Anonymous
LMAO |