150k/yr is bad now

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:anything under 200k for family of 4 is lower middle class.

fool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:anything under 200k for family of 4 is lower middle class.

That's a top 20% hhi in MD. I'd hardly call that lower middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…it isn’t short term inflation that gives you the impression $150k is bad. Also, it is still a freaking great salary in the grand scheme of things. Plenty to live on. Not sure where you’re coming from.

150k now is 120k in 2016 dollars according to CPI, 20% decline but other costs have gone up 30-40% since then like cars, housing, food, then if you include higher interest rates for mortgages this can effectively be a 50-100% cost increase. So for certain things 150k is like 75k just several years ago.

100% increase is a little nuts and afaik not backed up by facts. However one big thing you're noting is why we have to take on this as public policy -- cost of housing both to rent and to purchase is batshit insane and is in many ways the expense that makes people feel their pay isn't enough. Those of us who were privileged to be older millennials with stable jobs who could buy at the bottom of the market post 2008, and refinance to a freaking low rate are in a different financial position from someone who doesn't own now and is facing higher and higher rents. We need more housing, we need more housing that is available, attainable, and afforable to those at all income levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…it isn’t short term inflation that gives you the impression $150k is bad. Also, it is still a freaking great salary in the grand scheme of things. Plenty to live on. Not sure where you’re coming from.

150k now is 120k in 2016 dollars according to CPI, 20% decline but other costs have gone up 30-40% since then like cars, housing, food, then if you include higher interest rates for mortgages this can effectively be a 50-100% cost increase. So for certain things 150k is like 75k just several years ago.

100% increase is a little nuts and afaik not backed up by facts. However one big thing you're noting is why we have to take on this as public policy -- cost of housing both to rent and to purchase is batshit insane and is in many ways the expense that makes people feel their pay isn't enough. Those of us who were privileged to be older millennials with stable jobs who could buy at the bottom of the market post 2008, and refinance to a freaking low rate are in a different financial position from someone who doesn't own now and is facing higher and higher rents. We need more housing, we need more housing that is available, attainable, and afforable to those at all income levels.

True, but you know who is first in line to decry the building of more affordable housing for working and lower middle and even middle class people?

The people who lucked into the timing of buying during the bottom of the market in post-2008, refinanced to a sub 3% rate in the last few years, and are now living in homes they bought for 400k that are worth 1.4m. Those folks (you) see the dollar signs from their "smart financial choices" (read: incredibly fortunate timing) lining up and don't like the idea of building additional housing that might impact how that works out for them. Y'all are looking at early retirement, selling out to go mortgage free. Some of you snapped up multiple properties, or have pre-marital properties you've held onto and rented out, and now you're thinking about passive income and quitting the rat race altogether.

You don't want affordable housing. You're capitalists now. You want high rents and high housing prices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…it isn’t short term inflation that gives you the impression $150k is bad. Also, it is still a freaking great salary in the grand scheme of things. Plenty to live on. Not sure where you’re coming from.

150k now is 120k in 2016 dollars according to CPI, 20% decline but other costs have gone up 30-40% since then like cars, housing, food, then if you include higher interest rates for mortgages this can effectively be a 50-100% cost increase. So for certain things 150k is like 75k just several years ago.

100% increase is a little nuts and afaik not backed up by facts. However one big thing you're noting is why we have to take on this as public policy -- cost of housing both to rent and to purchase is batshit insane and is in many ways the expense that makes people feel their pay isn't enough. Those of us who were privileged to be older millennials with stable jobs who could buy at the bottom of the market post 2008, and refinance to a freaking low rate are in a different financial position from someone who doesn't own now and is facing higher and higher rents. We need more housing, we need more housing that is available, attainable, and afforable to those at all income levels.

100% isn’t inaccurate, it’s even higher than that in some cases. My house P&I is in the low $1500’s and if I were to buy my house today at the current rates and prices my P&I payment would be $3600. I literally bought my house a few months before Covid and refinanced to a low 2’s rate, before the refi I was paying mid 1900’s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…it isn’t short term inflation that gives you the impression $150k is bad. Also, it is still a freaking great salary in the grand scheme of things. Plenty to live on. Not sure where you’re coming from.

150k now is 120k in 2016 dollars according to CPI, 20% decline but other costs have gone up 30-40% since then like cars, housing, food, then if you include higher interest rates for mortgages this can effectively be a 50-100% cost increase. So for certain things 150k is like 75k just several years ago.

100% increase is a little nuts and afaik not backed up by facts. However one big thing you're noting is why we have to take on this as public policy -- cost of housing both to rent and to purchase is batshit insane and is in many ways the expense that makes people feel their pay isn't enough. Those of us who were privileged to be older millennials with stable jobs who could buy at the bottom of the market post 2008, and refinance to a freaking low rate are in a different financial position from someone who doesn't own now and is facing higher and higher rents. We need more housing, we need more housing that is available, attainable, and afforable to those at all income levels.

True, but you know who is first in line to decry the building of more affordable housing for working and lower middle and even middle class people?

The people who lucked into the timing of buying during the bottom of the market in post-2008, refinanced to a sub 3% rate in the last few years, and are now living in homes they bought for 400k that are worth 1.4m. Those folks (you) see the dollar signs from their "smart financial choices" (read: incredibly fortunate timing) lining up and don't like the idea of building additional housing that might impact how that works out for them. Y'all are looking at early retirement, selling out to go mortgage free. Some of you snapped up multiple properties, or have pre-marital properties you've held onto and rented out, and now you're thinking about passive income and quitting the rat race altogether.

You don't want affordable housing. You're capitalists now. You want high rents and high housing prices.

i'm going to do something unusual on DCUM and say this -- you're right. Doesn't matter that I personally don't fit the mold you lay out (also hence why I come here and elsewhere talking about and advocating for improvements housing policy and building more housing), you are very right about people like me and the opportunities we hoard.

[Anonymous]

what matters is what you keep. A person who makes 50k a year and saves $5 a year is wealthier than a person who makes a million and spends it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is our current HHI and sometimes we feel like it's not enough, but it's the combination of this area and inflation. If we moved almost anywhere else, we'd be extremely comfortable. Unfortunately, our jobs are currently not portable.

I think the most challenging thing is that living in this area, it is very hard to save on this income. We are lucky to own a home (small condo, so minimal appreciation) so at least we have a savings mechanism built into that.

We are hoping to be able to shift career wise to allow us to move within the next 6 years, so if we can pay down as much of the condo as possible in that time, and not incur anymore debt, if we can even just maintain this income but move to a lower COL area, I think it will get a lot easier.

It's really just that this area is incredibly expensive. I wish I had been more prescient about the trajectory of the economy here when we settled here and took these jobs. Then we had a kid and have to factor in schools, so we feel in a bind where we can't afford to move and stay IB for good schools. It's a frustrating compromise that we would not have to make in other areas (I mean, yes in places like NY/SF/LA, probably Seattle, but not in Chicago, Minneapolis, Philly, Pittsburgh and other cities we're looking at).

But I try to remind myself that we'll be able to walk away with enough equity in our 2-bedroom condo to probably buy a 3-4 bedroom house outright in a good suburban school district in one of those places. It will work out in the end. We've just got to make it through.

Our friends moved to Philly and are much happier. I dont blame them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…it isn’t short term inflation that gives you the impression $150k is bad. Also, it is still a freaking great salary in the grand scheme of things. Plenty to live on. Not sure where you’re coming from.

150k now is 120k in 2016 dollars according to CPI, 20% decline but other costs have gone up 30-40% since then like cars, housing, food, then if you include higher interest rates for mortgages this can effectively be a 50-100% cost increase. So for certain things 150k is like 75k just several years ago.

100% increase is a little nuts and afaik not backed up by facts. However one big thing you're noting is why we have to take on this as public policy -- cost of housing both to rent and to purchase is batshit insane and is in many ways the expense that makes people feel their pay isn't enough. Those of us who were privileged to be older millennials with stable jobs who could buy at the bottom of the market post 2008, and refinance to a freaking low rate are in a different financial position from someone who doesn't own now and is facing higher and higher rents. We need more housing, we need more housing that is available, attainable, and afforable to those at all income levels.

100% isn’t inaccurate, it’s even higher than that in some cases. My house P&I is in the low $1500’s and if I were to buy my house today at the current rates and prices my P&I payment would be $3600. I literally bought my house a few months before Covid and refinanced to a low 2’s rate, before the refi I was paying mid 1900’s.

Same poster - btw this is a townhouse in what would be considered an “exurb” here so not really desirable. 3600/mo + taxes and insurance would bring the PITI to 4000/month which is pretty much half of the take home pay on 150k/yr.

Yeah, 150k/yr is definitely not an aspirational lifestyle these days if this is what it gets you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:what matters is what you keep. A person who makes 50k a year and saves $5 a year is wealthier than a person who makes a million and spends it all.

boom

And if 150k is "bad" you have budget issues

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…it isn’t short term inflation that gives you the impression $150k is bad. Also, it is still a freaking great salary in the grand scheme of things. Plenty to live on. Not sure where you’re coming from.

150k now is 120k in 2016 dollars according to CPI, 20% decline but other costs have gone up 30-40% since then like cars, housing, food, then if you include higher interest rates for mortgages this can effectively be a 50-100% cost increase. So for certain things 150k is like 75k just several years ago.

100% increase is a little nuts and afaik not backed up by facts. However one big thing you're noting is why we have to take on this as public policy -- cost of housing both to rent and to purchase is batshit insane and is in many ways the expense that makes people feel their pay isn't enough. Those of us who were privileged to be older millennials with stable jobs who could buy at the bottom of the market post 2008, and refinance to a freaking low rate are in a different financial position from someone who doesn't own now and is facing higher and higher rents. We need more housing, we need more housing that is available, attainable, and afforable to those at all income levels.

True, but you know who is first in line to decry the building of more affordable housing for working and lower middle and even middle class people?

The people who lucked into the timing of buying during the bottom of the market in post-2008, refinanced to a sub 3% rate in the last few years, and are now living in homes they bought for 400k that are worth 1.4m. Those folks (you) see the dollar signs from their "smart financial choices" (read: incredibly fortunate timing) lining up and don't like the idea of building additional housing that might impact how that works out for them. Y'all are looking at early retirement, selling out to go mortgage free. Some of you snapped up multiple properties, or have pre-marital properties you've held onto and rented out, and now you're thinking about passive income and quitting the rat race altogether.

You don't want affordable housing. You're capitalists now. You want high rents and high housing prices.

400 to 1.4 m is an exaggeration. We bought at 460 sub 3% and now it’s around 600. But what does it matter if I can’t sell it to anyone and buy somewhere else without taking a 100k interest hit. Market is frozen. That money is a mirage.

[Anonymous]

250k is the new 150k. Just being honest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Funny how I raised two kids on much less in this area, then! Do you really want to go through life being miserable and feeling deprived? Try to be content with what you have, or hustle to make more.

So your kids are already grown? Yeah no shizz, $150k back when your kids were kids was a lot better of a salary

My kids are 13 and 18 (one is in college).

So not that long ago, and we're still living as a family of 4 on less than 150K.

Happiness is a choice and sometimes it's work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what matters is what you keep. A person who makes 50k a year and saves $5 a year is wealthier than a person who makes a million and spends it all.

boom

And if 150k is "bad" you have budget issues

You’re out of touch. It’s not bad if you live out in the middle of nowhere or don’t need to buy a house or car because you already have them, but if you’re just starting out it simply doesn’t get you much. Can you survive on 150 here? Yes. Can you live anywhere near a nice middle class lifestyle while raising kids here? No.

You can be happy if you find contentment in a very frugal life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…it isn’t short term inflation that gives you the impression $150k is bad. Also, it is still a freaking great salary in the grand scheme of things. Plenty to live on. Not sure where you’re coming from.

150k now is 120k in 2016 dollars according to CPI, 20% decline but other costs have gone up 30-40% since then like cars, housing, food, then if you include higher interest rates for mortgages this can effectively be a 50-100% cost increase. So for certain things 150k is like 75k just several years ago.

100% increase is a little nuts and afaik not backed up by facts. However one big thing you're noting is why we have to take on this as public policy -- cost of housing both to rent and to purchase is batshit insane and is in many ways the expense that makes people feel their pay isn't enough. Those of us who were privileged to be older millennials with stable jobs who could buy at the bottom of the market post 2008, and refinance to a freaking low rate are in a different financial position from someone who doesn't own now and is facing higher and higher rents. We need more housing, we need more housing that is available, attainable, and afforable to those at all income levels.

True, but you know who is first in line to decry the building of more affordable housing for working and lower middle and even middle class people?

The people who lucked into the timing of buying during the bottom of the market in post-2008, refinanced to a sub 3% rate in the last few years, and are now living in homes they bought for 400k that are worth 1.4m. Those folks (you) see the dollar signs from their "smart financial choices" (read: incredibly fortunate timing) lining up and don't like the idea of building additional housing that might impact how that works out for them. Y'all are looking at early retirement, selling out to go mortgage free. Some of you snapped up multiple properties, or have pre-marital properties you've held onto and rented out, and now you're thinking about passive income and quitting the rat race altogether.

You don't want affordable housing. You're capitalists now. You want high rents and high housing prices.

400 to 1.4 m is an exaggeration. We bought at 460 sub 3% and now it’s around 600. But what does it matter if I can’t sell it to anyone and buy somewhere else without taking a 100k interest hit. Market is frozen. That money is a mirage.

400k in 2009 to 1.4k in 2023 is not an exaggeration in some neighborhoods. I know people who bought on the Hill in 2009ish for around 300k who could sell for a million now, and that is without additional upgrades. Depends a bit on where in the neighborhood and and school zones, but not unheard of. If you move up the ladder a bit, it can be even more. There's a house in Eastern Market that sold in 2009 for 700k -- a lot but very manageable for dual Big Law or consulting. It sold last year for 2 million. Zero upgrades. $1.3m net -- okay fine let's subtract closing costs and other expenses, $1.2m. For nothing. And now the sellers can take their profit (including the equity built over 14 years) and roll into a 4 bedroom house in a good school district that they can buy outright, so who cares about interest rates.

There were some BIG winners in the real estate cycle from 2008-2023. But the thing that is frustrating for people who didn't get to participate in it on even modest levels is that there was no bust. There's no sell off. That house that sold for 2 million last year is probably worth 2.1 this year. For no reason other than limited inventory.

So it's frustrating to get financial advice from people who had the timing for that. Their advice is basically "be born 10 years earlier, have more capital." Okay, I'll get right on that.