How exactly do children get selected for AAP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Friend’s kid at low SES school. 99 percentile cogat. Rejected AAP.

I knew a few kids that were rejected with scores in the 97th - 99th percentile rejected from AAP. All of them appealed and only one got in. Guess which one? The one with scores in the 99th percentile. We're in a mid level SES area btw.
If you are not an URM scores in the mid/upper 90th percentile will certainly get you in. White/Asian, no chance.

This makes me really curious to know what percent of say 2nd graders in FCPS is in this range (90th-99th). It must be the case that 99th is not sufficiently discriminating if a child from a low SES school can score that way and not get in.

Isn't it the case that they need to be in the top 20% at their school? Maybe in a given lower SES school you still may have 30% who score this way on the COGAT. Lower SES doesn't mean most kids are doing poorly.

AAP takes around 20% of the FCPS kids. In the old pool system, with a cutoff of 132 on either the NNAT or CogAT, around 12% of kids were "in pool". It probably is the case that a kid scoring in the 90th percentile nationally would be on the bubble of being in the top 20% across FCPS.

That being said, the AAP equity report showed that GBRS is much more important than test scores. Many kids are admitted into AAP with lower test scores, high GBRS, strong commentary in the GBRS form, and solid work samples. Many kids with 99th percentile test scores are rejected from AAP if the GBRS score is low, the GBRS commentary is weak, or the work samples seem sub-par for AAP. Thanks to so many kids prepping, the committee seems to assume that if the kid has a 99th percentile score, but the teacher isn't seeing giftedness, the kid is probably prepped.

Also, the AART at my kids' school has flat out acknowledged the randomness of the process. Every year, some kids from my kids' school are admitted with nothing whatsoever in the AAP packet suggesting AAP placement. Also, every year, some kids that the AART thought were obvious admits with very strong packets get rejected. If the school is supporting your kid for AAP placement, but the kid gets rejected, the AART suggested reapplying and appealing each year. Eventually, any kid who has the school's support will get in.

This is very helpful, thanks. I realize that I still lack some basic understanding of the process. What percentage at each school automatically gets a packet? And with that, goes GBRS at minimum and more if parents want to put in work samples, etc? And in additions, parents and teachers can refer those who are not in pool? Can teachers ever remove a child who is in pool from consideration?

Also you mention the committee could reason that if the teacher isn't seeing giftedness, the kid is probably prepped and they thus reject the kid, but my understanding is that it's not about giftedness so much as readiness for more advanced work (truly gifted would be a small %). If a child can be prepped to obtain stellar scores on these tests, I'd think it'd be unlikely that they'd be completely unprepared for advanced work? Not that I'm looking to intensively prep my kid because that sounds exhausting and would not be something DC would go for anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the most part, if your kid has test scores around the 96th percentile or higher, and your kid is above grade level in both math and language arts, your kid will probably get admitted. Some kids who have lower scores, or have high scores in just one area, with lower in the other will get in. If they think a kid is disadvantaged, or if something in the kid's work samples really stands out, then they'll let a kid in who on paper doesn't have the stats.

Some kids with 99th percentile scores across the board and who are advanced in every subject will get rejected. Sometimes, the teacher doesn't understand the kid and gives a low GBRS. Sometimes, the kid still has a high GBRS, and the rejection is a mystery to the teachers and AART.

The conventional wisdom is that 50% of appeals are accepted. Keep in mind, though, that people only tend to appeal if they think they have a strong case. Most of the kids admitted on appeal ought to have been selected the first time and already had the high test scores or high GBRS.

There is no magic ticket and no real way to "buy a diagnosis" like the troll keeps suggesting. If your kid is solidly in the top 20% of their 2nd grade cohort, there's a decent chance that they'll be admitted. If they're not admitted in 2nd, they'll probably get in in 3rd or 4th. If anything, FCPS errs by admitting entirely too many kids who aren't especially advanced. If your kid is 2+ years above grade level, they will likely find AAP pretty slow.

Thanks, this is a really helpful response!

Forgive me, but I wasn’t identified as gifted as a student. I truly do not understand this post at all. Maybe it’s the abbreviations? Read and re-read and it seems incredibly complicated and confusing.

Can you imagine being a parent who struggles with the English language? Didn’t grow up here in the US? Has no time to research the nuances and procedures to get a DC in AAP?

I contend that for these reasons alone, AAP is inequitable and discriminatory.

I know I’d need assistance to navigate these procedures. I have 2 FCPS graduates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the most part, if your kid has test scores around the 96th percentile or higher, and your kid is above grade level in both math and language arts, your kid will probably get admitted. Some kids who have lower scores, or have high scores in just one area, with lower in the other will get in. If they think a kid is disadvantaged, or if something in the kid's work samples really stands out, then they'll let a kid in who on paper doesn't have the stats.

Some kids with 99th percentile scores across the board and who are advanced in every subject will get rejected. Sometimes, the teacher doesn't understand the kid and gives a low GBRS. Sometimes, the kid still has a high GBRS, and the rejection is a mystery to the teachers and AART.

The conventional wisdom is that 50% of appeals are accepted. Keep in mind, though, that people only tend to appeal if they think they have a strong case. Most of the kids admitted on appeal ought to have been selected the first time and already had the high test scores or high GBRS.

There is no magic ticket and no real way to "buy a diagnosis" like the troll keeps suggesting. If your kid is solidly in the top 20% of their 2nd grade cohort, there's a decent chance that they'll be admitted. If they're not admitted in 2nd, they'll probably get in in 3rd or 4th. If anything, FCPS errs by admitting entirely too many kids who aren't especially advanced. If your kid is 2+ years above grade level, they will likely find AAP pretty slow.

Thanks, this is a really helpful response!

Forgive me, but I wasn’t identified as gifted as a student. I truly do not understand this post at all. Maybe it’s the abbreviations? Read and re-read and it seems incredibly complicated and confusing.

Can you imagine being a parent who struggles with the English language? Didn’t grow up here in the US? Has no time to research the nuances and procedures to get a DC in AAP?

I contend that for these reasons alone, AAP is inequitable and discriminatory.

I know I’d need assistance to navigate these procedures. I have 2 FCPS graduates.

How about instead of imagining, actually talking to people? There are many who do not speak English well but want the best for their child and will find ways to understand the system. It has to do with what people value. And certainly FCPS should do everything they can to remove barriers so that children with strong potential can get what they need from school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Friend’s kid at low SES school. 99 percentile cogat. Rejected AAP.

I knew a few kids that were rejected with scores in the 97th - 99th percentile rejected from AAP. All of them appealed and only one got in. Guess which one? The one with scores in the 99th percentile. We're in a mid level SES area btw.
If you are not an URM scores in the mid/upper 90th percentile will certainly get you in. White/Asian, no chance.

This makes me really curious to know what percent of say 2nd graders in FCPS is in this range (90th-99th). It must be the case that 99th is not sufficiently discriminating if a child from a low SES school can score that way and not get in.

Isn't it the case that they need to be in the top 20% at their school? Maybe in a given lower SES school you still may have 30% who score this way on the COGAT. Lower SES doesn't mean most kids are doing poorly.

AAP takes around 20% of the FCPS kids. In the old pool system, with a cutoff of 132 on either the NNAT or CogAT, around 12% of kids were "in pool". It probably is the case that a kid scoring in the 90th percentile nationally would be on the bubble of being in the top 20% across FCPS.

That being said, the AAP equity report showed that GBRS is much more important than test scores. Many kids are admitted into AAP with lower test scores, high GBRS, strong commentary in the GBRS form, and solid work samples. Many kids with 99th percentile test scores are rejected from AAP if the GBRS score is low, the GBRS commentary is weak, or the work samples seem sub-par for AAP. Thanks to so many kids prepping, the committee seems to assume that if the kid has a 99th percentile score, but the teacher isn't seeing giftedness, the kid is probably prepped.

Also, the AART at my kids' school has flat out acknowledged the randomness of the process. Every year, some kids from my kids' school are admitted with nothing whatsoever in the AAP packet suggesting AAP placement. Also, every year, some kids that the AART thought were obvious admits with very strong packets get rejected. If the school is supporting your kid for AAP placement, but the kid gets rejected, the AART suggested reapplying and appealing each year. Eventually, any kid who has the school's support will get in.

This is very helpful, thanks. I realize that I still lack some basic understanding of the process. What percentage at each school automatically gets a packet? And with that, goes GBRS at minimum and more if parents want to put in work samples, etc? And in additions, parents and teachers can refer those who are not in pool? Can teachers ever remove a child who is in pool from consideration?

Also you mention the committee could reason that if the teacher isn't seeing giftedness, the kid is probably prepped and they thus reject the kid, but my understanding is that it's not about giftedness so much as readiness for more advanced work (truly gifted would be a small %). If a child can be prepped to obtain stellar scores on these tests, I'd think it'd be unlikely that they'd be completely unprepared for advanced work? Not that I'm looking to intensively prep my kid because that sounds exhausting and would not be something DC would go for anyway.

10% at each school are in pool and automatically get a packet. Any parent can refer any child not in pool, and the child will then get a packet. If the teacher thinks a child should be considered for AAP, but the parents aren't likely to refer the child, the teacher can do so. Every child that is in pool or is referred will have the school generate a packet that includes test scores, a GBRS with commentary, and work samples produced at school. Parents can submit the questionnaire form and additional work samples. All of this goes in the packet. Teachers cannot remove a child from consideration if the parents want the child considered.

I agree with you that any kid who is above grade level in math and language arts and who also has high test scores belongs in AAP, regardless of what the teacher sees or doesn't see. Some gifted kids are disengaged in the 2nd grade classroom because it's too basic for them. Some kids have LDs that can mask giftedness to the teacher. Some teachers wouldn't understand giftedness if it bit them on the ass. The FCPS committee defers pretty strongly to the teacher's view on the child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the most part, if your kid has test scores around the 96th percentile or higher, and your kid is above grade level in both math and language arts, your kid will probably get admitted. Some kids who have lower scores, or have high scores in just one area, with lower in the other will get in. If they think a kid is disadvantaged, or if something in the kid's work samples really stands out, then they'll let a kid in who on paper doesn't have the stats.

Some kids with 99th percentile scores across the board and who are advanced in every subject will get rejected. Sometimes, the teacher doesn't understand the kid and gives a low GBRS. Sometimes, the kid still has a high GBRS, and the rejection is a mystery to the teachers and AART.

The conventional wisdom is that 50% of appeals are accepted. Keep in mind, though, that people only tend to appeal if they think they have a strong case. Most of the kids admitted on appeal ought to have been selected the first time and already had the high test scores or high GBRS.

There is no magic ticket and no real way to "buy a diagnosis" like the troll keeps suggesting. If your kid is solidly in the top 20% of their 2nd grade cohort, there's a decent chance that they'll be admitted. If they're not admitted in 2nd, they'll probably get in in 3rd or 4th. If anything, FCPS errs by admitting entirely too many kids who aren't especially advanced. If your kid is 2+ years above grade level, they will likely find AAP pretty slow.

Thanks, this is a really helpful response!

Forgive me, but I wasn’t identified as gifted as a student. I truly do not understand this post at all. Maybe it’s the abbreviations? Read and re-read and it seems incredibly complicated and confusing.

Can you imagine being a parent who struggles with the English language? Didn’t grow up here in the US? Has no time to research the nuances and procedures to get a DC in AAP?

I contend that for these reasons alone, AAP is inequitable and discriminatory.

I know I’d need assistance to navigate these procedures. I have 2 FCPS graduates.

Any child who scores in the top 10% of their school will automatically be referred. The parent doesn't need to do anything at all. If a child is bright but is poor or has parents who aren't fluent in English, and the child is below the top 10% threshold, then the school should refer the child. The AAP equity report showed that many kids are referred by their teachers for AAP. In this case, the parents also don't have to do anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
10% at each school are in pool and automatically get a packet. Any parent can refer any child not in pool, and the child will then get a packet. If the teacher thinks a child should be considered for AAP, but the parents aren't likely to refer the child, the teacher can do so. Every child that is in pool or is referred will have the school generate a packet that includes test scores, a GBRS with commentary, and work samples produced at school. Parents can submit the questionnaire form and additional work samples. All of this goes in the packet. Teachers cannot remove a child from consideration if the parents want the child considered.

I agree with you that any kid who is above grade level in math and language arts and who also has high test scores belongs in AAP, regardless of what the teacher sees or doesn't see. Some gifted kids are disengaged in the 2nd grade classroom because it's too basic for them. Some kids have LDs that can mask giftedness to the teacher. Some teachers wouldn't understand giftedness if it bit them on the ass. The FCPS committee defers pretty strongly to the teacher's view on the child.

Thanks. It's surprises me that kids who are in pool are rejected so frequently if there's no cap on how many can be selected for AAP. Of standard scores and teacher evaluations, standard scores are more objective even if prepping can improve a score to some degree. Seems wrong to reject kids who are objectively capable of advanced work.

One more q: what happens if a child doesn't have a lot of experience with their teacher? Like if they came from another school or were homeschooled?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
10% at each school are in pool and automatically get a packet. Any parent can refer any child not in pool, and the child will then get a packet. If the teacher thinks a child should be considered for AAP, but the parents aren't likely to refer the child, the teacher can do so. Every child that is in pool or is referred will have the school generate a packet that includes test scores, a GBRS with commentary, and work samples produced at school. Parents can submit the questionnaire form and additional work samples. All of this goes in the packet. Teachers cannot remove a child from consideration if the parents want the child considered.

I agree with you that any kid who is above grade level in math and language arts and who also has high test scores belongs in AAP, regardless of what the teacher sees or doesn't see. Some gifted kids are disengaged in the 2nd grade classroom because it's too basic for them. Some kids have LDs that can mask giftedness to the teacher. Some teachers wouldn't understand giftedness if it bit them on the ass. The FCPS committee defers pretty strongly to the teacher's view on the child.

Thanks. It's surprises me that kids who are in pool are rejected so frequently if there's no cap on how many can be selected for AAP. Of standard scores and teacher evaluations, standard scores are more objective even if prepping can improve a score to some degree. Seems wrong to reject kids who are objectively capable of advanced work.

One more q: what happens if a child doesn't have a lot of experience with their teacher? Like if they came from another school or were homeschooled?

Oh, there are definitely caps, FCPS just doesn’t publicly acknowledge them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
10% at each school are in pool and automatically get a packet. Any parent can refer any child not in pool, and the child will then get a packet. If the teacher thinks a child should be considered for AAP, but the parents aren't likely to refer the child, the teacher can do so. Every child that is in pool or is referred will have the school generate a packet that includes test scores, a GBRS with commentary, and work samples produced at school. Parents can submit the questionnaire form and additional work samples. All of this goes in the packet. Teachers cannot remove a child from consideration if the parents want the child considered.

I agree with you that any kid who is above grade level in math and language arts and who also has high test scores belongs in AAP, regardless of what the teacher sees or doesn't see. Some gifted kids are disengaged in the 2nd grade classroom because it's too basic for them. Some kids have LDs that can mask giftedness to the teacher. Some teachers wouldn't understand giftedness if it bit them on the ass. The FCPS committee defers pretty strongly to the teacher's view on the child.

Thanks. It's surprises me that kids who are in pool are rejected so frequently if there's no cap on how many can be selected for AAP. Of standard scores and teacher evaluations, standard scores are more objective even if prepping can improve a score to some degree. Seems wrong to reject kids who are objectively capable of advanced work.

One more q: what happens if a child doesn't have a lot of experience with their teacher? Like if they came from another school or were homeschooled?

They say that there is no cap but a good number of people believe that there is a cap. It might be different for each Center and LLIV school but there is no way that they are going to allow for schools to have so many AAP classes that they need to add additional trailers at schools. The County has a good idea about how many kids will move from a base school to the Center and how many will stay for LLIV and they most likely use that information to set the number of kids selected for AAP at specific Centers.

I understand that the official policy is that there is no cap but it just doesn’t strike me as feasible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
10% at each school are in pool and automatically get a packet. Any parent can refer any child not in pool, and the child will then get a packet. If the teacher thinks a child should be considered for AAP, but the parents aren't likely to refer the child, the teacher can do so. Every child that is in pool or is referred will have the school generate a packet that includes test scores, a GBRS with commentary, and work samples produced at school. Parents can submit the questionnaire form and additional work samples. All of this goes in the packet. Teachers cannot remove a child from consideration if the parents want the child considered.

I agree with you that any kid who is above grade level in math and language arts and who also has high test scores belongs in AAP, regardless of what the teacher sees or doesn't see. Some gifted kids are disengaged in the 2nd grade classroom because it's too basic for them. Some kids have LDs that can mask giftedness to the teacher. Some teachers wouldn't understand giftedness if it bit them on the ass. The FCPS committee defers pretty strongly to the teacher's view on the child.

Thanks. It's surprises me that kids who are in pool are rejected so frequently if there's no cap on how many can be selected for AAP. Of standard scores and teacher evaluations, standard scores are more objective even if prepping can improve a score to some degree. Seems wrong to reject kids who are objectively capable of advanced work.

One more q: what happens if a child doesn't have a lot of experience with their teacher? Like if they came from another school or were homeschooled?

Oh, there are definitely caps, FCPS just doesn’t publicly acknowledge them.

They say that there is no cap but a good number of people believe that there is a cap. It might be different for each Center and LLIV school but there is no way that they are going to allow for schools to have so many AAP classes that they need to add additional trailers at schools. The County has a good idea about how many kids will move from a base school to the Center and how many will stay for LLIV and they most likely use that information to set the number of kids selected for AAP at specific Centers.

I understand that the official policy is that there is no cap but it just doesn’t strike me as feasible.

[Anonymous]

Sorry for the double post, I had a weird error and didn’t see the first post.

[Anonymous]

What are the logistics for a child going to classes at haycock from sherman elementary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are the logistics for a child going to classes at haycock from sherman elementary?

I’m not sure what you mean by logistics. If they get into AAP and choose to go to haycock, that is now their new school and they attend haycock as a full-time student. They take a bus to go there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the most part, if your kid has test scores around the 96th percentile or higher, and your kid is above grade level in both math and language arts, your kid will probably get admitted. Some kids who have lower scores, or have high scores in just one area, with lower in the other will get in. If they think a kid is disadvantaged, or if something in the kid's work samples really stands out, then they'll let a kid in who on paper doesn't have the stats.

Some kids with 99th percentile scores across the board and who are advanced in every subject will get rejected. Sometimes, the teacher doesn't understand the kid and gives a low GBRS. Sometimes, the kid still has a high GBRS, and the rejection is a mystery to the teachers and AART.

The conventional wisdom is that 50% of appeals are accepted. Keep in mind, though, that people only tend to appeal if they think they have a strong case. Most of the kids admitted on appeal ought to have been selected the first time and already had the high test scores or high GBRS.

There is no magic ticket and no real way to "buy a diagnosis" like the troll keeps suggesting. If your kid is solidly in the top 20% of their 2nd grade cohort, there's a decent chance that they'll be admitted. If they're not admitted in 2nd, they'll probably get in in 3rd or 4th. If anything, FCPS errs by admitting entirely too many kids who aren't especially advanced. If your kid is 2+ years above grade level, they will likely find AAP pretty slow.

Thanks, this is a really helpful response!

Forgive me, but I wasn’t identified as gifted as a student. I truly do not understand this post at all. Maybe it’s the abbreviations? Read and re-read and it seems incredibly complicated and confusing.

Can you imagine being a parent who struggles with the English language? Didn’t grow up here in the US? Has no time to research the nuances and procedures to get a DC in AAP?

I contend that for these reasons alone, AAP is inequitable and discriminatory.

I know I’d need assistance to navigate these procedures. I have 2 FCPS graduates.

I guess that it is a good thing that they have meetings with the AART every year that discuss AAP. They have a general one, that discusses LII for K-6, Young Scholars, and touches on LIII and LIV. Then there is a separate meeting that discusses the process for 2nd graders. Those meetings discuss every term in the above posts. And they have a power point available. And it is available in multiple languages.

We have one kid and navigated the process fine. I mean, my start ended up being here when we got an NNAT score home in first grade and I went “What is this?” And found that the AART at our school wasn’t all that helpful. Her response to my question about the test was that DS would probably be in pool for LIV services but didn’t tell me what that meant. The FCPS page had basic info on it but I wanted to learn more so I googled it and got links that brought me here.

I know people who received those tests and did nothing. I know that our school had hardly anyone attend the AART’s AAP meetings, I did. There were maybe 20 parents at the general meeting and 10 at the LIII/LIV meeting. But we are a small school so maybe those numbers are not small.

There is plenty of info out there and plenty of ways for parents to get a hold of it. I would guess Title 1 schools have further outreach to parents but that is a guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, of course AAP is going to be be harder to get into at certain high SES schools, because the average kid there is so much more prepared and so the average classroom is also much more advanced. AAP represents enrichment beyond what is possible with the average classroom/cohort. We are at Churchill Rd and the average Cogat/scores for example to get into AAP feels higher than higher than some of the other schools (anecdotal) but that’s fine because that means the average curriculum/classroom is also more advanced! Buying a home in a lower performing school district seems insane for this reason.

In high SES schools, the regular classroom is almost exactly like AAP. Don't sweat it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, of course AAP is going to be be harder to get into at certain high SES schools, because the average kid there is so much more prepared and so the average classroom is also much more advanced. AAP represents enrichment beyond what is possible with the average classroom/cohort. We are at Churchill Rd and the average Cogat/scores for example to get into AAP feels higher than higher than some of the other schools (anecdotal) but that’s fine because that means the average curriculum/classroom is also more advanced! Buying a home in a lower performing school district seems insane for this reason.

In high SES schools, the regular classroom is almost exactly like AAP. Don't sweat it.

It’s not.