Is integration hurting our kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What about a child who has dyslexia or is hard of hearing or needs glasses or is blind? Should they be sequestered elsewhere too?

If they need glasses or hearing aids to bring them up to the same level as the build of the kids they’re not slowing down or interrupting the class.

[Anonymous]

I’m all for IEPs except there are not enough staff to handle each child’s individual needs. I have a friend who teaches 5th grade. One kids IEP literally says the teacher had to do all their work that had to be written. There are 5 kids in the class with IEPs.
We need more teachers and smaller classes and more paras. How one teacher can remember and implement the 5 individual plans and teach the rest of the kids I don’t know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m all for IEPs except there are not enough staff to handle each child’s individual needs. I have a friend who teaches 5th grade. One kids IEP literally says the teacher had to do all their work that had to be written. There are 5 kids in the class with IEPs.
We need more teachers and smaller classes and more paras. How one teacher can remember and implement the 5 individual plans and teach the rest of the kids I don’t know.

Wait! I thought DCUM says teachers are lazy and ...

[Anonymous]

“ When I was in school, those who had behavioral concerns or other special challenges were out of the classroom for most of the day with support that could help them thrive and learn.....”

I had a family member who was in this environment in the past thrive and learn is not what they get. I also am curious how you came to that conclusion that it was considering they were presumably in a separate (but I’m sure you would say equal) classroom from these types of students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m all for IEPs except there are not enough staff to handle each child’s individual needs. I have a friend who teaches 5th grade. One kids IEP literally says the teacher had to do all their work that had to be written. There are 5 kids in the class with IEPs.
We need more teachers and smaller classes and more paras. How one teacher can remember and implement the 5 individual plans and teach the rest of the kids I don’t know.

+1. I’m a teacher as well as a parent with a child with SN. My inclusion middle school classes have 7 children with IEPs out of 29 students. My para and I work like dogs to meet all their accommodations, but of course we miss things and get emails from advocates pointing out our failures. Meanwhile, I also feel like there’s never enough time for the other 22 kids.

MCPS needs to fund smaller class sizes and a lower ratio of students with SN per class.

[Anonymous]

Inclusion only works if we are willing to fund supports needed. In the 90s I had 1 kid with extra support needs in a class if 30. Now my kids have over 7 in a class if 29 and 10 in a class if 28.
One child in each class is physically aggressive and has melt downs.
Minimal learning can be done when the class has to vacate the room 5 times a day for safety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It depends on the kid. I'm a special educator. TBH, most of the inclusion I see sucks. Badly. For everyone involved. And isn't so inclusive. But some classes and teachers do it beautifully and everyone thrives.

I've been in art classes where the mainstream kids are doing something like pottery and the sped kids are with a para in a corner coloring with crayons. That is utter crap.

And I've been in classes where they do group projects and help each other and everyone participates equally at the level they can. Teachers modify activities so that they are accessible to all and allows everyone to stretch themselves just enough. But this is unbelievably rare in my experience.

When done correctly it's a beautiful thing. When done poorly it's not worth doing at all.

So, it's not as much kid-dependent as implementation of an appropriate, supportive environment. That's been my experience as well.

I don't know why people think 'separate but equal' would ever be 'equal' when there isn't nearly enough resources for the current model. Parents who complain about inclusion should direct their energies towards increasing school funding - or shut up and homeschool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What about a child who has dyslexia or is hard of hearing or needs glasses or is blind? Should they be sequestered elsewhere too?

No, these are the children that benefit from being included, and their classmates benefit as well, imo.

I think this is a fairly individual path - you should not generalize even with the same diagnosis. The pathways exist for this individual approach but it’s often the parents that stand in the way. Elsewhere it’s badly managed resources or bad administrators. Both, the needs of the one child and the whole class need to be taken into account. Inclusion for everyone and at any price is clearly not the right answer. Many kids that are in the general classroom should not be, and I think we all know that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:WTH is "specialized detention"?

A sign that this thread, which is generally a nice thread, was probably started by some kind of social media professional, like a Russian social media person, or an ad agency rep trying to get more hits for the ads placed here, or a low-end reporter trying to gather information for a feature story. Or, even AI trying to gather information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about a child who has dyslexia or is hard of hearing or needs glasses or is blind? Should they be sequestered elsewhere too?

They often are placed in dyslexia-focused classrooms and schools for deaf and blind, respectively.

? I have a deaf child who is totally mainstreamed and doing amazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WTH is "specialized detention"?

A sign that this thread, which is generally a nice thread, was probably started by some kind of social media professional, like a Russian social media person, or an ad agency rep trying to get more hits for the ads placed here, or a low-end reporter trying to gather information for a feature story. Or, even AI trying to gather information.

Lol. Put on your Tim hat

[Anonymous]

I am a self-contained teacher and I have to say it depends on the child. All of my kids go to specials (art, music, etc.) with a general education classroom and it's chaos. No differentiation and too many students.

The problem is not necessarily inclusion itself but systemic.

My students could be in gen ed given -
A smaller class of no more than 12 students (up to 5 students with IEPs)
A gen ed teacher who is also a special educator. Or another sped teacher (co-teach model)
A minimum of 4-5 paras - that is 6 adults total for a 1:2 ratio
Curriculum that is partially interest-based
Constant differentiation
Sensory room and/or breaks as needed

I have a class of 8 students and 4 adults and it's still a lot to manage. Some of them actually need a 1:1 aide but the district will not supply one.

The little list above is also not comprehensive and would never happen in a public general education classroom. The funding is absolutely not there and the staffing/training.

Self-contained is also quite stigmatized for a number of reasons. The principal surely promotes our specialized programs but not our self-contained program. No parent wants their child to be in it, despite the number of accolades I personally receive from my school and parents. Which I take no personal issue with, the goal is always to get kids the support they need and hopefully they can get out and go to gen ed.


All in all integration can hurt but it's not inclusion that is the issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in school, those who had behavioral concerns or other special challenges were out of the classroom for most of the day with support that could help them thrive and learn..... By forcing integration on children, do you think those with special needs and behavioral concerns as well as those without are actually benefiting from this new system? Because to be honest I would rather have specialized detention than full integration but I think I'm alone on that.

First of all - you mean inclusion not integration - you're using a word that means non-segregated by race.

Also it's too big of a group you're talking about to make blanket statements. Some kids w/ special needs are absolutely benefiting from inclusion and their gen ed peers also benefit from having them there.

Other special needs kids are being kept from better options for them because it's too expensive. And that is wrong and helps no one.

All of this. Inclusion is not the problem; lack of adequate financial support for special education is. Well supported inclusion is actually great for everyone because the NT kids get a chance to get to know the SN kids and vice versa.

I am 100% in favor of self contained classrooms when it serves the needs of the SN kids, but not ok with the idea that they should be put there so they stop bothering the NT kids. Unfortunately, when you have bad inclusion programs the rest of the SN programs are often awful, too. Because money.

Your response reminds me of supporters of communism, or libertarianism, and all the other humanly unrealistic schemes that only work in perfect worlds. The fact is if your desired system cannot be implemented despite generations of trying, it is likely harmful to keep pushing for its total implementation. I'm not saying discard it altogether, but fixing what everyone sees as broken begins with understanding that inclusion is the problem as currently pursued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a self-contained teacher and I have to say it depends on the child. All of my kids go to specials (art, music, etc.) with a general education classroom and it's chaos. No differentiation and too many students.

The problem is not necessarily inclusion itself but systemic.

My students could be in gen ed given -
A smaller class of no more than 12 students (up to 5 students with IEPs)
A gen ed teacher who is also a special educator. Or another sped teacher (co-teach model)
A minimum of 4-5 paras - that is 6 adults total for a 1:2 ratio
Curriculum that is partially interest-based
Constant differentiation
Sensory room and/or breaks as needed

I have a class of 8 students and 4 adults and it's still a lot to manage. Some of them actually need a 1:1 aide but the district will not supply one.

The little list above is also not comprehensive and would never happen in a public general education classroom. The funding is absolutely not there and the staffing/training.

Self-contained is also quite stigmatized for a number of reasons. The principal surely promotes our specialized programs but not our self-contained program. No parent wants their child to be in it, despite the number of accolades I personally receive from my school and parents. Which I take no personal issue with, the goal is always to get kids the support they need and hopefully they can get out and go to gen ed.


All in all integration can hurt but it's not inclusion that is the issue.

Thanks for your input. I feel like parents on here actually do often give accolades to the MCPS programs like ESESES, Bridge, RICA, GT/LD and the Aspbergers programs. Not universally but there’s often a lot of positive feedback.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in school, those who had behavioral concerns or other special challenges were out of the classroom for most of the day with support that could help them thrive and learn..... By forcing integration on children, do you think those with special needs and behavioral concerns as well as those without are actually benefiting from this new system? Because to be honest I would rather have specialized detention than full integration but I think I'm alone on that.

First of all - you mean inclusion not integration - you're using a word that means non-segregated by race.

Also it's too big of a group you're talking about to make blanket statements. Some kids w/ special needs are absolutely benefiting from inclusion and their gen ed peers also benefit from having them there.

Other special needs kids are being kept from better options for them because it's too expensive. And that is wrong and helps no one.

All of this. Inclusion is not the problem; lack of adequate financial support for special education is. Well supported inclusion is actually great for everyone because the NT kids get a chance to get to know the SN kids and vice versa.

I am 100% in favor of self contained classrooms when it serves the needs of the SN kids, but not ok with the idea that they should be put there so they stop bothering the NT kids. Unfortunately, when you have bad inclusion programs the rest of the SN programs are often awful, too. Because money.

Your response reminds me of supporters of communism, or libertarianism, and all the other humanly unrealistic schemes that only work in perfect worlds. The fact is if your desired system cannot be implemented despite generations of trying, it is likely harmful to keep pushing for its total implementation. I'm not saying discard it altogether, but fixing what everyone sees as broken begins with understanding that inclusion is the problem as currently pursued.

Wow. No. You need to back that up with a lot more evidence