Why is horse racing legal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

You can let a horse run without flying them all over the planet when they don't understand what's happening. These horses are subjected to stressful conditions routinely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

I think this was a specious argument (by Penny Chenery). Secretariat was the result of centuries of breeding with the sole intent of creating a horse with not only the conformation and lung capacity to run, but also the desire to run and compete. He didn’t just pop up out of the plains. It’s like saying, “Well, Holsteins produce so much milk that we have to use them as dairy cows”. Well, duh. That’s the way we made them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:horse racing is an ancient sport and I don’t think it will disappear and fade the way greyhound racing is fading. It’s mostly because there is a lot of money in horse racing. A great deal of the money in us thoroughbred racing has an inexhaustible reserve - it comes from the Middle East. Many American horses are owned by Saudi oil barons. The richest race in the world is the Saudi cup, but the real money is in collecting stud fees of successful stallions. Financially, the racing industry feeds the breeding business, not the other way around.

Horse racing in Europe and Asia have fewer fatalities because of two main reasons - they don’t use all the drugs that American trainers use, and they race mostly on turf, which is softer than dirt, thus causing fewer injuries. Why don’t American horses race more on turf? It’s slower than dirt, and the races unfold in a different way. On turf, the ride builds gradually and usually comes down to a tight sprint at the end. On dirt, the pace is faster and there is usually more separation among horses at the end, as they tire and slow down.

Sadly, I don’t think concern for animal welfare is enough to shut down horse racing. There have been truly horrific incidents aside from the more well known events like Eight Belles and the recent spate of deaths. Google Maria Borell, Ferdinand, Alydar, Rick Dutrow, Medina Spirit and Bob Baffert, Jason Servis, Santa Anita deaths. The list goes on forever.

There have been some efforts to address the problems. Lasix has been banned from some tracks. Lasix is a diuretic (Lasix = lasts 6 hours) and is, I believe, where the phrase “pees like a racehorse” originated. But every crackdown reveals more and more rot. The crazy amounts of money being poured into American racing makes it difficult, if not impossible to truly reform.

Horse racing is fading. It used to be a major sport and we’re down to one race that anyone cares about. The Maryland tracks all have to be subsidized by gambling other than betting on races to survive. It’s a niche sports that is all but dead, but with supporters powerful enough to get the government to step in

This is what many people think because they don’t pay attention to a sport they don’t care for. It’s like when people are shocked to find out nascar is so popular. But horse racing is not fading in the us.

https://www.americasbestracing.net/the-sport/2022-us-horse-racing-betting-industry-handle-surges-highest-years

“The U.S. horse racing industry just recorded its largest annual wagering handle numbers since 2009. It’s important to note that this occurred across over 30% fewer races overall.”

“U.S. purses exceeded $1.1 billion, a 35.77% increase over the previous year
U.S. race days and total races jumped by more than 20% over last year”

Breeders Cup is the biggest racing event of the year, not the Derby. A lot of ignorance showing on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s no better than bullfighting in its brutality. They torture the horses. Six had to be euthanized from injuries this week at Churchill Downs /Kentucky Derby and another one died. In 2019 FORTY horses died at one track. It’s barbaric. Horses are such noble animals, and these trainers push them past their physical limits for money then shoot them when they break.

Why would it be not legal? Isn't this what these animals were bred for? It's what they do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

You can let a horse run without flying them all over the planet when they don't understand what's happening. These horses are subjected to stressful conditions routinely.

Do you have issues with other types of show horses (dressage)? Or just race horses?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

You can let a horse run without flying them all over the planet when they don't understand what's happening. These horses are subjected to stressful conditions routinely.

So, animal biologist, you think we should not be subjecting all animals in our care to something stressful they don't understand? Life in the wild is stressful. Being raised in pens and cages is stressful. Being kept in a house all day while the owners are gone is stressful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:horse racing is an ancient sport and I don’t think it will disappear and fade the way greyhound racing is fading. It’s mostly because there is a lot of money in horse racing. A great deal of the money in us thoroughbred racing has an inexhaustible reserve - it comes from the Middle East. Many American horses are owned by Saudi oil barons. The richest race in the world is the Saudi cup, but the real money is in collecting stud fees of successful stallions. Financially, the racing industry feeds the breeding business, not the other way around.

Horse racing in Europe and Asia have fewer fatalities because of two main reasons - they don’t use all the drugs that American trainers use, and they race mostly on turf, which is softer than dirt, thus causing fewer injuries. Why don’t American horses race more on turf? It’s slower than dirt, and the races unfold in a different way. On turf, the ride builds gradually and usually comes down to a tight sprint at the end. On dirt, the pace is faster and there is usually more separation among horses at the end, as they tire and slow down.

Sadly, I don’t think concern for animal welfare is enough to shut down horse racing. There have been truly horrific incidents aside from the more well known events like Eight Belles and the recent spate of deaths. Google Maria Borell, Ferdinand, Alydar, Rick Dutrow, Medina Spirit and Bob Baffert, Jason Servis, Santa Anita deaths. The list goes on forever.

There have been some efforts to address the problems. Lasix has been banned from some tracks. Lasix is a diuretic (Lasix = lasts 6 hours) and is, I believe, where the phrase “pees like a racehorse” originated. But every crackdown reveals more and more rot. The crazy amounts of money being poured into American racing makes it difficult, if not impossible to truly reform.

Horse racing is fading. It used to be a major sport and we’re down to one race that anyone cares about. The Maryland tracks all have to be subsidized by gambling other than betting on races to survive. It’s a niche sports that is all but dead, but with supporters powerful enough to get the government to step in

This is what many people think because they don’t pay attention to a sport they don’t care for. It’s like when people are shocked to find out nascar is so popular. But horse racing is not fading in the us.

https://www.americasbestracing.net/the-sport/2022-us-horse-racing-betting-industry-handle-surges-highest-years

“The U.S. horse racing industry just recorded its largest annual wagering handle numbers since 2009. It’s important to note that this occurred across over 30% fewer races overall.”

“U.S. purses exceeded $1.1 billion, a 35.77% increase over the previous year
U.S. race days and total races jumped by more than 20% over last year”

Breeders Cup is the biggest racing event of the year, not the Derby. A lot of ignorance showing on this thread.

In the us, yes. But not abroad. Ascot, Dubai, Saudi cup, prix de l’arc de triomphe, Epsom, Melbourne are all big races/race meets. And every day, Hong Kong, which has a tiny population compared to the us, has a betting turnover 5 times greater per race than the us, and most people can’t name a race there.

[Anonymous]

In the first half of the last century, it was common for horses to race until they were 4/5/6 or even older. Stakes races were longer. Horses raced much more frequently. The combination favored the creation of tough distance horses, campaigners who could take a licking and keep on ticking.

As racing evolved, a couple things happened. Stud fees went through the roof, so that your horse became worth much more in the breeding shed than he was in the starting gate. Better to retire and syndicate him after a big win at 3 than to keep him racing and risk injury. The longer races gradually disappeared, because there weren’t as many quality horses who were campaigning at the “marathon” distances of 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 miles. Better to make quick money with your 2-3 yo sprinting 5 or 6 furlongs (5/8-6/8 of a mile), then send him off to meet the ladies. And if you want a horse who can produce a good race record quickly, you breed for speed, not staying power. And with that, you give up some of that old campaigning toughness in favor of quick wins. Then some of these sires become fashionable, and wind up in pedigree after pedigree. (I’m looking at you, Storm Cat.) Throw in year-round racing, without annual downtime chilling in the pasture at the owner’s farm, and you also lose the benefits of everyone’s two favorite injury vets, Dr. Green and Dr. Time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:horse racing is an ancient sport and I don’t think it will disappear and fade the way greyhound racing is fading. It’s mostly because there is a lot of money in horse racing. A great deal of the money in us thoroughbred racing has an inexhaustible reserve - it comes from the Middle East. Many American horses are owned by Saudi oil barons. The richest race in the world is the Saudi cup, but the real money is in collecting stud fees of successful stallions. Financially, the racing industry feeds the breeding business, not the other way around.

Horse racing in Europe and Asia have fewer fatalities because of two main reasons - they don’t use all the drugs that American trainers use, and they race mostly on turf, which is softer than dirt, thus causing fewer injuries. Why don’t American horses race more on turf? It’s slower than dirt, and the races unfold in a different way. On turf, the ride builds gradually and usually comes down to a tight sprint at the end. On dirt, the pace is faster and there is usually more separation among horses at the end, as they tire and slow down.

Sadly, I don’t think concern for animal welfare is enough to shut down horse racing. There have been truly horrific incidents aside from the more well known events like Eight Belles and the recent spate of deaths. Google Maria Borell, Ferdinand, Alydar, Rick Dutrow, Medina Spirit and Bob Baffert, Jason Servis, Santa Anita deaths. The list goes on forever.

There have been some efforts to address the problems. Lasix has been banned from some tracks. Lasix is a diuretic (Lasix = lasts 6 hours) and is, I believe, where the phrase “pees like a racehorse” originated. But every crackdown reveals more and more rot. The crazy amounts of money being poured into American racing makes it difficult, if not impossible to truly reform.

Horse racing is fading. It used to be a major sport and we’re down to one race that anyone cares about. The Maryland tracks all have to be subsidized by gambling other than betting on races to survive. It’s a niche sports that is all but dead, but with supporters powerful enough to get the government to step in

This is what many people think because they don’t pay attention to a sport they don’t care for. It’s like when people are shocked to find out nascar is so popular. But horse racing is not fading in the us.

https://www.americasbestracing.net/the-sport/2022-us-horse-racing-betting-industry-handle-surges-highest-years

“The U.S. horse racing industry just recorded its largest annual wagering handle numbers since 2009. It’s important to note that this occurred across over 30% fewer races overall.”

“U.S. purses exceeded $1.1 billion, a 35.77% increase over the previous year
U.S. race days and total races jumped by more than 20% over last year”

Breeders Cup is the biggest racing event of the year, not the Derby. A lot of ignorance showing on this thread.

In the us, yes. But not abroad. Ascot, Dubai, Saudi cup, prix de l’arc de triomphe, Epsom, Melbourne are all big races/race meets. And every day, Hong Kong, which has a tiny population compared to the us, has a betting turnover 5 times greater per race than the us, and most people can’t name a race there.

Yes, agree. PP was referring to the US, I believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

I think this was a specious argument (by Penny Chenery). Secretariat was the result of centuries of breeding with the sole intent of creating a horse with not only the conformation and lung capacity to run, but also the desire to run and compete. He didn’t just pop up out of the plains. It’s like saying, “Well, Holsteins produce so much milk that we have to use them as dairy cows”. Well, duh. That’s the way we made them.

I think it’s a complicated half truth, for sure. It is true that any horse will be perfectly content living in a field, anyone who says otherwise is lying. But it’s also true that you can’t beat or scare a horse into winning any race of significance and perhaps even more so in the other disciplines. One of the reasons mares and geldings and stallions of different ages and breeds show up at the top levels of show jumping and eventing is that it’s not only a question of athletic ability, the horse’s willingness to try and to be careful is a huge factor. Yes, people do questionable things like poling to enhance performance but that really only works at the margins if at all.

They’re domesticated animals, they exist to work with us. I think it’s misleading that we refer to “wild” horses in this country. They’re much more feral than wild.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

You can let a horse run without flying them all over the planet when they don't understand what's happening. These horses are subjected to stressful conditions routinely.

Do you have issues with other types of show horses (dressage)? Or just race horses?

NP. I have problems with show jumping. They are removing it from the Olympic pentathlon. Most horses like humans would rather walk around a 5 foot high obstacle if possible rather than jump over it, particularly with an adult human on their back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the first half of the last century, it was common for horses to race until they were 4/5/6 or even older. Stakes races were longer. Horses raced much more frequently. The combination favored the creation of tough distance horses, campaigners who could take a licking and keep on ticking.

As racing evolved, a couple things happened. Stud fees went through the roof, so that your horse became worth much more in the breeding shed than he was in the starting gate. Better to retire and syndicate him after a big win at 3 than to keep him racing and risk injury. The longer races gradually disappeared, because there weren’t as many quality horses who were campaigning at the “marathon” distances of 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 miles. Better to make quick money with your 2-3 yo sprinting 5 or 6 furlongs (5/8-6/8 of a mile), then send him off to meet the ladies. And if you want a horse who can produce a good race record quickly, you breed for speed, not staying power. And with that, you give up some of that old campaigning toughness in favor of quick wins. Then some of these sires become fashionable, and wind up in pedigree after pedigree. (I’m looking at you, Storm Cat.) Throw in year-round racing, without annual downtime chilling in the pasture at the owner’s farm, and you also lose the benefits of everyone’s two favorite injury vets, Dr. Green and Dr. Time.

Thank you for this explanation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

You can let a horse run without flying them all over the planet when they don't understand what's happening. These horses are subjected to stressful conditions routinely.

Do you have issues with other types of show horses (dressage)? Or just race horses?

NP. I have problems with show jumping. They are removing it from the Olympic pentathlon. Most horses like humans would rather walk around a 5 foot high obstacle if possible rather than jump over it, particularly with an adult human on their back.

NP. Some horses like to jump and will happily jump obstacles in their paddock for fun. Some people like to jump and will jump obstacles and choose hurdles rather than flat.

Jumpers are horses who like to jump. Otherwise they just wouldn't do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I eat animals and use their fur, wool and skin to clothe myself, so I can't point fingers.

Also, I remember what Secretariat's owner always pointed out - that this was a horse who WANTED to run. He was good at it, he knew it, and that's what he liked to do.

The problem is interacting closely with other species when we cannot always know what they want, and how they feel. Homo Sapiens has domesticated animals for millenia, and most of these breeds would not survive in the wild now.

How can we treat them with respect, and stimulate them mentally with the activities they are good at and want to do? It's not enough to give them food and shelter.

As an animal biologist, I've always wondered about this.

You can let a horse run without flying them all over the planet when they don't understand what's happening. These horses are subjected to stressful conditions routinely.

Do you have issues with other types of show horses (dressage)? Or just race horses?

NP. I have problems with show jumping. They are removing it from the Olympic pentathlon. Most horses like humans would rather walk around a 5 foot high obstacle if possible rather than jump over it, particularly with an adult human on their back.

Okay but Pentathalon is a bad argument. Everyone (I think, or nearly everyone?) is in favor of removing it from Pentathalon because of the rules. You’re allowed to keep going and remount even if you crash and fall off, which is nuts. No other discipline has rules like that. And the horses are borrowed, which is hard on everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tbh racing wouldn’t be at the top of my list for HORSE abuse, to say nothing of animal abuse in general.

Are you kidding? How would you feel if they euthanized dogs for dog races?

Treating a broken leg on a dog is doable, and, if unsuccessful, the limb can be amputated. Tripod dogs and cats are mobile and functional. Horses can only be treated for leg injuries im certain circumstances, and it's very expensive with no guarantee of success. Euthanasia is usually the best course for the horse.

Yes but its the conditions in which they push the horse that cause the injuries. It's not a humane sport.

+1