Arlington "missing middle"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I live near Rocklands in Virginia Square. We have SFHs, duplexes, multiplexes, and apartment buildings all on the same square block. We are fine and living here is great. Not sure why people are so pissed off. Most of Arlington near the rosslyn-ballston corridor is already dense and we have vibrant neighborhoods with diverse housing options.

That’s great for you that you prefer a denser neighborhood. I have friends in dense parts of DC as well that love it. They would never dream of moving to Westover or Maywood or any other similar place.

Those of us that deliberately chose non-dense neighborhoods even those with smaller and older homes did so because we don’t want that lifestyle. I like being surrounded by other homes and yards and not having the street filled with cars. That’s not racist, it’s not classist. It’s a lifestyle preference. And yes, as soon as a neighbor sells and their home is replaced by a 6 or 8 plex I will absolutely lose a ton of equity in my own home so this impacts my financial future as well.

If your neighbor's 1-unit building is replaced by a 6-unit or 8-unit building, your property value will increase.

DP- I don’t give a flip about the property value. This is my home where we intend to stay. I didn’t move here to have a bunch of condos/dense housing. I chose my neighborhood specifically for the quiet lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

As far as the whole "we need homes for teachers, and cops, etc"

OK, lets just run the numbers then.

a 750,000 duplex, condo, whatever , is a 600k mortgage. And thats asumming they can scare up 150 to get 20% down and avoid PMI.

Thats still 4k a month.

Who is swinging that? Not some GS12 and teacher partner.

Just call it what it is- upzoning. Greater density. It's not "missing middle", or middle class affordable. That couple is still going to buy a place for 550 somewhere way farther out.

[Anonymous]

I'm in 22207 and am fine with the proposal.

But in order to realistically pass, I wish they'd just start with allowing duplexes everywhere and then see what happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I live near Rocklands in Virginia Square. We have SFHs, duplexes, multiplexes, and apartment buildings all on the same square block. We are fine and living here is great. Not sure why people are so pissed off. Most of Arlington near the rosslyn-ballston corridor is already dense and we have vibrant neighborhoods with diverse housing options.

That’s great for you that you prefer a denser neighborhood. I have friends in dense parts of DC as well that love it. They would never dream of moving to Westover or Maywood or any other similar place.

Those of us that deliberately chose non-dense neighborhoods even those with smaller and older homes did so because we don’t want that lifestyle. I like being surrounded by other homes and yards and not having the street filled with cars. That’s not racist, it’s not classist. It’s a lifestyle preference. And yes, as soon as a neighbor sells and their home is replaced by a 6 or 8 plex I will absolutely lose a ton of equity in my own home so this impacts my financial future as well.

If your neighbor's 1-unit building is replaced by a 6-unit or 8-unit building, your property value will increase.

DP- I don’t give a flip about the property value. This is my home where we intend to stay. I didn’t move here to have a bunch of condos/dense housing. I chose my neighborhood specifically for the quiet lifestyle.

OK, but other people are using the "but my property value" argument.

I don't know why a duplex or a fourplex would be louder than a oneplex, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As far as the whole "we need homes for teachers, and cops, etc"

OK, lets just run the numbers then.

a 750,000 duplex, condo, whatever , is a 600k mortgage. And thats asumming they can scare up 150 to get 20% down and avoid PMI.

Thats still 4k a month.

Who is swinging that? Not some GS12 and teacher partner.

Just call it what it is- upzoning. Greater density. It's not "missing middle", or middle class affordable. That couple is still going to buy a place for 550 somewhere way farther out.

Let's run the numbers. Right now, egg producers are only allowed to produce and sell two sizes of eggs: extra large eggs and small eggs. The middle class can't afford extra large eggs. In the future, however, egg producers will also be allowed to produce and sell "missing middle" eggs, so: extra large eggs, large eggs, medium eggs, and small eggs. In addition, more eggs will be available, total.

Will more people be able to afford eggs once egg producers are also allowed to produce and sell large eggs and medium eggs, and more eggs are available, total?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As far as the whole "we need homes for teachers, and cops, etc"

OK, lets just run the numbers then.

a 750,000 duplex, condo, whatever , is a 600k mortgage. And thats asumming they can scare up 150 to get 20% down and avoid PMI.

Thats still 4k a month.

Who is swinging that? Not some GS12 and teacher partner.

Just call it what it is- upzoning. Greater density. It's not "missing middle", or middle class affordable. That couple is still going to buy a place for 550 somewhere way farther out.

Let's run the numbers. Right now, egg producers are only allowed to produce and sell two sizes of eggs: extra large eggs and small eggs. The middle class can't afford extra large eggs. In the future, however, egg producers will also be allowed to produce and sell "missing middle" eggs, so: extra large eggs, large eggs, medium eggs, and small eggs. In addition, more eggs will be available, total.

Will more people be able to afford eggs once egg producers are also allowed to produce and sell large eggs and medium eggs, and more eggs are available, total?

Youre ignoring my point.

So the 750k condo gets bought by... whomever can afford and chooses that. But it isnt the middle class the plan pretends it will be.

Will that help the overall macro housing shortage? Sure. But its being sold as a way to allow teachers and firefighters and whoever to live where they work. And that is patently false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As far as the whole "we need homes for teachers, and cops, etc"

OK, lets just run the numbers then.

a 750,000 duplex, condo, whatever , is a 600k mortgage. And thats asumming they can scare up 150 to get 20% down and avoid PMI.

Thats still 4k a month.

Who is swinging that? Not some GS12 and teacher partner.

Just call it what it is- upzoning. Greater density. It's not "missing middle", or middle class affordable. That couple is still going to buy a place for 550 somewhere way farther out.

Let's run the numbers. Right now, egg producers are only allowed to produce and sell two sizes of eggs: extra large eggs and small eggs. The middle class can't afford extra large eggs. In the future, however, egg producers will also be allowed to produce and sell "missing middle" eggs, so: extra large eggs, large eggs, medium eggs, and small eggs. In addition, more eggs will be available, total.

Will more people be able to afford eggs once egg producers are also allowed to produce and sell large eggs and medium eggs, and more eggs are available, total?

Youre ignoring my point.

So the 750k condo gets bought by... whomever can afford and chooses that. But it isnt the middle class the plan pretends it will be.

Will that help the overall macro housing shortage? Sure. But its being sold as a way to allow teachers and firefighters and whoever to live where they work. And that is patently false.

Individual housing units exist in a housing market. If they built one duplex in North Arlington, just one duplex, nothing else anywhere, would a teacher or firefighter be able to afford that one single solitary unique duplex? Probably not. But they are not going to build just that one duplex and nothing else anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I live near Rocklands in Virginia Square. We have SFHs, duplexes, multiplexes, and apartment buildings all on the same square block. We are fine and living here is great. Not sure why people are so pissed off. Most of Arlington near the rosslyn-ballston corridor is already dense and we have vibrant neighborhoods with diverse housing options.

That’s great for you that you prefer a denser neighborhood. I have friends in dense parts of DC as well that love it. They would never dream of moving to Westover or Maywood or any other similar place.

Those of us that deliberately chose non-dense neighborhoods even those with smaller and older homes did so because we don’t want that lifestyle. I like being surrounded by other homes and yards and not having the street filled with cars. That’s not racist, it’s not classist. It’s a lifestyle preference. And yes, as soon as a neighbor sells and their home is replaced by a 6 or 8 plex I will absolutely lose a ton of equity in my own home so this impacts my financial future as well.

If your neighbor's 1-unit building is replaced by a 6-unit or 8-unit building, your property value will increase.

DP- I don’t give a flip about the property value. This is my home where we intend to stay. I didn’t move here to have a bunch of condos/dense housing. I chose my neighborhood specifically for the quiet lifestyle.

OK, but other people are using the "but my property value" argument.

I don't know why a duplex or a fourplex would be louder than a oneplex, though.

I'm a PP pointing to both. While I am living there I chose a quiet neighborhood, not the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor for a reason. Second, yes property values. If it's your turn to buy a new house in a quiet neighborhood, you're no longer looking at mine since it's next to a 6-unit apartment building. The potential breadth of buyers has constricted dramatically. So in the short and long term I lose.

Did someone really ask why a 6 plex will cause more noise than a SFH? Really? That's now 6 units' worth of families, 6 units' worth of cars, 6 units' worth of garbage cans being dragged to the street, and so on and so on. It's increased density and that includes noise. Again, which some of us specifically did not want and now potentially could have forced upon us.

The argument is "well they'll start by only approving 40 or 50 per year". That's all well and good unless you're on the block where one of those is being built.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I live near Rocklands in Virginia Square. We have SFHs, duplexes, multiplexes, and apartment buildings all on the same square block. We are fine and living here is great. Not sure why people are so pissed off. Most of Arlington near the rosslyn-ballston corridor is already dense and we have vibrant neighborhoods with diverse housing options.

That’s great for you that you prefer a denser neighborhood. I have friends in dense parts of DC as well that love it. They would never dream of moving to Westover or Maywood or any other similar place.

Those of us that deliberately chose non-dense neighborhoods even those with smaller and older homes did so because we don’t want that lifestyle. I like being surrounded by other homes and yards and not having the street filled with cars. That’s not racist, it’s not classist. It’s a lifestyle preference. And yes, as soon as a neighbor sells and their home is replaced by a 6 or 8 plex I will absolutely lose a ton of equity in my own home so this impacts my financial future as well.

If your neighbor's 1-unit building is replaced by a 6-unit or 8-unit building, your property value will increase.

DP- I don’t give a flip about the property value. This is my home where we intend to stay. I didn’t move here to have a bunch of condos/dense housing. I chose my neighborhood specifically for the quiet lifestyle.

OK, but other people are using the "but my property value" argument.

I don't know why a duplex or a fourplex would be louder than a oneplex, though.

I'm a PP pointing to both. While I am living there I chose a quiet neighborhood, not the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor for a reason. Second, yes property values. If it's your turn to buy a new house in a quiet neighborhood, you're no longer looking at mine since it's next to a 6-unit apartment building. The potential breadth of buyers has constricted dramatically. So in the short and long term I lose.

Did someone really ask why a 6 plex will cause more noise than a SFH? Really? That's now 6 units' worth of families, 6 units' worth of cars, 6 units' worth of garbage cans being dragged to the street, and so on and so on. It's increased density and that includes noise. Again, which some of us specifically did not want and now potentially could have forced upon us.

The argument is "well they'll start by only approving 40 or 50 per year". That's all well and good unless you're on the block where one of those is being built.

People against more neighbors...

You're empirically wrong about property values, though. If it's possible to build a six-plex on your property, your property value will increase, not decrease.

[Anonymous]

I live in a dense south arlington neighborhood on a small block of SFHs. Our lots down here are tiny, but I know that my ex neighbor would have added as many units as possible with no parking to up his profit. I support adding duplexes everywhere, triplexes on larger lots, but the six and 8 plexes make no sense right now. Plus, they ARE NOT AFFORDABLE. Teachers will not be buying these up. I agree the county could use more density, but its South Arlington that will have even more added density since it is cheaper to buy, while also making SFHs harder to buy everywhere for those that think they are entitled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I live near Rocklands in Virginia Square. We have SFHs, duplexes, multiplexes, and apartment buildings all on the same square block. We are fine and living here is great. Not sure why people are so pissed off. Most of Arlington near the rosslyn-ballston corridor is already dense and we have vibrant neighborhoods with diverse housing options.

That’s great for you that you prefer a denser neighborhood. I have friends in dense parts of DC as well that love it. They would never dream of moving to Westover or Maywood or any other similar place.

Those of us that deliberately chose non-dense neighborhoods even those with smaller and older homes did so because we don’t want that lifestyle. I like being surrounded by other homes and yards and not having the street filled with cars. That’s not racist, it’s not classist. It’s a lifestyle preference. And yes, as soon as a neighbor sells and their home is replaced by a 6 or 8 plex I will absolutely lose a ton of equity in my own home so this impacts my financial future as well.

If your neighbor's 1-unit building is replaced by a 6-unit or 8-unit building, your property value will increase.

DP- I don’t give a flip about the property value. This is my home where we intend to stay. I didn’t move here to have a bunch of condos/dense housing. I chose my neighborhood specifically for the quiet lifestyle.

OK, but other people are using the "but my property value" argument.

I don't know why a duplex or a fourplex would be louder than a oneplex, though.

I'm a PP pointing to both. While I am living there I chose a quiet neighborhood, not the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor for a reason. Second, yes property values. If it's your turn to buy a new house in a quiet neighborhood, you're no longer looking at mine since it's next to a 6-unit apartment building. The potential breadth of buyers has constricted dramatically. So in the short and long term I lose.

Did someone really ask why a 6 plex will cause more noise than a SFH? Really? That's now 6 units' worth of families, 6 units' worth of cars, 6 units' worth of garbage cans being dragged to the street, and so on and so on. It's increased density and that includes noise. Again, which some of us specifically did not want and now potentially could have forced upon us.

The argument is "well they'll start by only approving 40 or 50 per year". That's all well and good unless you're on the block where one of those is being built.

Which is louder, a 6-unit building with 1-3 people per unit, or a one-unit building of equivalent size with a nuclear family with four kids plus grandparents plus some adult siblings?

[Anonymous]

At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I live near Rocklands in Virginia Square. We have SFHs, duplexes, multiplexes, and apartment buildings all on the same square block. We are fine and living here is great. Not sure why people are so pissed off. Most of Arlington near the rosslyn-ballston corridor is already dense and we have vibrant neighborhoods with diverse housing options.

That’s great for you that you prefer a denser neighborhood. I have friends in dense parts of DC as well that love it. They would never dream of moving to Westover or Maywood or any other similar place.

Those of us that deliberately chose non-dense neighborhoods even those with smaller and older homes did so because we don’t want that lifestyle. I like being surrounded by other homes and yards and not having the street filled with cars. That’s not racist, it’s not classist. It’s a lifestyle preference. And yes, as soon as a neighbor sells and their home is replaced by a 6 or 8 plex I will absolutely lose a ton of equity in my own home so this impacts my financial future as well.

If your neighbor's 1-unit building is replaced by a 6-unit or 8-unit building, your property value will increase.

DP- I don’t give a flip about the property value. This is my home where we intend to stay. I didn’t move here to have a bunch of condos/dense housing. I chose my neighborhood specifically for the quiet lifestyle.

OK, but other people are using the "but my property value" argument.

I don't know why a duplex or a fourplex would be louder than a oneplex, though.

I'm a PP pointing to both. While I am living there I chose a quiet neighborhood, not the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor for a reason. Second, yes property values. If it's your turn to buy a new house in a quiet neighborhood, you're no longer looking at mine since it's next to a 6-unit apartment building. The potential breadth of buyers has constricted dramatically. So in the short and long term I lose.

Did someone really ask why a 6 plex will cause more noise than a SFH? Really? That's now 6 units' worth of families, 6 units' worth of cars, 6 units' worth of garbage cans being dragged to the street, and so on and so on. It's increased density and that includes noise. Again, which some of us specifically did not want and now potentially could have forced upon us.

The argument is "well they'll start by only approving 40 or 50 per year". That's all well and good unless you're on the block where one of those is being built.

Which is louder, a 6-unit building with 1-3 people per unit, or a one-unit building of equivalent size with a nuclear family with four kids plus grandparents plus some adult siblings?

Unquestionably the 6 unit building. That’s 18 adults — likely at least one or two units will be young and social and have frequent parties (you have 6 chances) and another will have a garage band or video game habit. Let’s be honest, any neighbor is a gamble, but with a 6-pled you really stack the odds to have a conflict.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

Yep.

And its fine to debate the merits of increasing the density, but its insulting to suggest families are going to be buying these 750k duplexes or condos. It will be young yuppies. Lets at least ne honest about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, no middle class families are moving into 4-plexes. Like everyone else, they want a SFH, not some lame townhouse with zero parking.

Adding density just brings in more young people, mostly those that used to live in DC but now want a bigger place to support WFH.

I think you don't know a wide range of middle-class families under the age of 45.