Middle school magnet lottery cutoffs finally revealed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

Apologies, but I'm just not willing to take your anecdotal experiences as data. If you're argument is that students from the highest FARMS schools who achieve those scores are not able to succeed in the magnet program, then you're going to need something beyond what you claim your first grader scored on their MAP test one time.

What? I did not give you an anecdote. I gave you actual, literal data! Scores are data: statistics and facts. Anecdotes are funny stories.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

It wasn't the same test. The test that 1st graders take is different from the test that 5th graders take. The scores aren't comparable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

Your kid is too young to know this but in 3rd grade the MAP scoring changes, and scores drop. It's not linear. But ThAnKs FoR yOuR InPuT!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

Your kid is too young to know this but in 3rd grade the MAP scoring changes, and scores drop. It's not linear. But ThAnKs FoR yOuR InPuT!

My kid is now a rising 6th grader who scored dozens of points over the 99th percentile this year and every year, so I actually do know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

It wasn't the same test. The test that 1st graders take is different from the test that 5th graders take. The scores aren't comparable.

60th percentile literally means 40 percent of students scored higher. Why on earth would a very limited seat program designed for the most gifted learners think that a student who understood content less well than 40 percent of students would be the appropriate candidate for this limited resource?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

It wasn't the same test. The test that 1st graders take is different from the test that 5th graders take. The scores aren't comparable.

60th percentile literally means 40 percent of students scored higher. Why on earth would a very limited seat program designed for the most gifted learners think that a student who understood content less well than 40 percent of students would be the appropriate candidate for this limited resource?

So, the 60th percentile figure is national, not local. So, a kid in the 60th percentile at one of those 5 or so absolutely highest needs schools in the district represent the top 15 percent of their school. By the same token, the kids above the 93rd percentile at the wealthiest schools in the county represent the top 15 percent of their schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

Your kid is too young to know this but in 3rd grade the MAP scoring changes, and scores drop. It's not linear. But ThAnKs FoR yOuR InPuT!

My kid is now a rising 6th grader who scored dozens of points over the 99th percentile this year and every year, so I actually do know.

Not the PP, but you don't actually know because you are comparing scores on two different tests that have different content. The Early Learners MAP Growth test for math basically caps out at content around 3-D shapes. The MAP-M used for magnet placement has higher level content and it is very common for learners, even gifted learners, to see substantial score drops between 2nd and 3rd grades, which is when the test shifts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

It wasn't the same test. The test that 1st graders take is different from the test that 5th graders take. The scores aren't comparable.

60th percentile literally means 40 percent of students scored higher. Why on earth would a very limited seat program designed for the most gifted learners think that a student who understood content less well than 40 percent of students would be the appropriate candidate for this limited resource?

So, the 60th percentile figure is national, not local. So, a kid in the 60th percentile at one of those 5 or so absolutely highest needs schools in the district represent the top 15 percent of their school. By the same token, the kids above the 93rd percentile at the wealthiest schools in the county represent the top 15 percent of their schools.

I understand all of that. I am still of the opinion that the lowest threshold from any school should be higher than a 60th percentile nationally, particularly because the program is so small and is not available to all the students whose data suggests they need accelerated and enriched rigor and pacing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

Your kid is too young to know this but in 3rd grade the MAP scoring changes, and scores drop. It's not linear. But ThAnKs FoR yOuR InPuT!

My kid is now a rising 6th grader who scored dozens of points over the 99th percentile this year and every year, so I actually do know.

Not the PP, but you don't actually know because you are comparing scores on two different tests that have different content. The Early Learners MAP Growth test for math basically caps out at content around 3-D shapes. The MAP-M used for magnet placement has higher level content and it is very common for learners, even gifted learners, to see substantial score drops between 2nd and 3rd grades, which is when the test shifts.

Yes, my child experienced a small dip between 2nd and 3rd but never dipped below either of those scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

Your kid is too young to know this but in 3rd grade the MAP scoring changes, and scores drop. It's not linear. But ThAnKs FoR yOuR InPuT!

My kid is now a rising 6th grader who scored dozens of points over the 99th percentile this year and every year, so I actually do know.

Not the PP, but you don't actually know because you are comparing scores on two different tests that have different content. The Early Learners MAP Growth test for math basically caps out at content around 3-D shapes. The MAP-M used for magnet placement has higher level content and it is very common for learners, even gifted learners, to see substantial score drops between 2nd and 3rd grades, which is when the test shifts.

NP. You don't know what you are talking about. Yes the tests are different but NWEA designed it so the scores are comparable even between tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

It wasn't the same test. The test that 1st graders take is different from the test that 5th graders take. The scores aren't comparable.

60th percentile literally means 40 percent of students scored higher. Why on earth would a very limited seat program designed for the most gifted learners think that a student who understood content less well than 40 percent of students would be the appropriate candidate for this limited resource?

So, the 60th percentile figure is national, not local. So, a kid in the 60th percentile at one of those 5 or so absolutely highest needs schools in the district represent the top 15 percent of their school. By the same token, the kids above the 93rd percentile at the wealthiest schools in the county represent the top 15 percent of their schools.

I understand all of that. I am still of the opinion that the lowest threshold from any school should be higher than a 60th percentile nationally, particularly because the program is so small and is not available to all the students whose data suggests they need accelerated and enriched rigor and pacing.

I think the strongest argument was made by a PP who said that the kid who really suffers is the 90th percentile kid at a high FARMS school who should be picked because they are really outliers but instead has bad luck and the classmate who is scoring at the 60th percentile gets to go the magnet leaving that 90th percentile kid with peers who are nowhere close to them.

[Anonymous]

Those are really low MAP scores even in the lowest FARMS group. When the lottery was first used I remember so many posters claiming there's very little difference in performance between high FARMS and low FARMS schools. They literally said it can't be more than a few percentages despite all the evidence to the contrary.

People get so stuck on this idea that they don't want to offend anyone by claiming there are differences in achievement but now you have it. There are huge differences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You guys. Let me say this to you another way.

The students from the highest FARMS schools needed a MAP score of 213 in 5th grade to get into the lottery pool. Let me put this in perspective for you. My recently graduated 5th grader had 217 as a 6 year old 1st grader. We do not supplement and he clearly did not have enough math background or knowledge to enter into a gifted math middle school program at that time! That score is nowhere close to the gifted range for a 5th grader no matter what their SES or circumstances. At this point, they might as well enter all students into the lottery because these thresholds are absolutely ridiculous.

It wasn't the same test. The test that 1st graders take is different from the test that 5th graders take. The scores aren't comparable.

60th percentile literally means 40 percent of students scored higher. Why on earth would a very limited seat program designed for the most gifted learners think that a student who understood content less well than 40 percent of students would be the appropriate candidate for this limited resource?

So, the 60th percentile figure is national, not local. So, a kid in the 60th percentile at one of those 5 or so absolutely highest needs schools in the district represent the top 15 percent of their school. By the same token, the kids above the 93rd percentile at the wealthiest schools in the county represent the top 15 percent of their schools.

I understand all of that. I am still of the opinion that the lowest threshold from any school should be higher than a 60th percentile nationally, particularly because the program is so small and is not available to all the students whose data suggests they need accelerated and enriched rigor and pacing.

I think the strongest argument was made by a PP who said that the kid who really suffers is the 90th percentile kid at a high FARMS school who should be picked because they are really outliers but instead has bad luck and the classmate who is scoring at the 60th percentile gets to go the magnet leaving that 90th percentile kid with peers who are nowhere close to them.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those are really low MAP scores even in the lowest FARMS group. When the lottery was first used I remember so many posters claiming there's very little difference in performance between high FARMS and low FARMS schools. They literally said it can't be more than a few percentages despite all the evidence to the contrary.

People get so stuck on this idea that they don't want to offend anyone by claiming there are differences in achievement but now you have it. There are huge differences.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Responding to MPIAs from MCCPTA's Gifted Education Committee, MCPS finally revealed middle school magnet lottery cutoffs.

(1) MCPS divides all elementary schools into 5 groups based on FARMS:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/120BRtShXf9_kQcNvKSxHKG4nJhnyTjL7/view?fbclid=IwAR1hrS0Ar1xsi_W8Ew3ow3Zz6aE84gkeAVZTu08rz_33TCvXCfTSRLDtX_w

low
low moderate
moderate
moderate high
high

(2) MCPS uses different cutoffs for these 5 groups:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e0Szg2jJ8F1rL2BZSqCV1fb_R1gLwaRl/view?fbclid=IwAR36sMGZsbuKGYKnvEj9f5B2o0ioaZeiaZ7YQJLJVxPxP_m-Jr9-tUG5wq8

The cutoffs are national normed percentile (= 85% locally normed)

Math
low 93%
low moderate 92%
moderate 84%
moderate high 65%
high 60%

Humanites
low 92%
low moderate 92%
moderate 88%
moderate high 76%
high 70%


This means in a low-FARMS school, one needs 93%/92% to enter lottery.
In a high-FARMS school, one needs 60%/70% to enter lottery.

You can score 60% in math and 70% in reading to go to Takoma Park and Eastern magnets.

What percentage of the kids at a high-farms school have 70%+?

At least 60-70% of the students in high farms would have the scores to make the cut off

No. It's saying kids who attend high farms schools and score at least 70%ile on the test are in-pool.

It's not the same as scoring 99%ile, but at a lot of high farms schools the barriers to learning and achievement are greater, so what MCPS is saying is that a kid who scores 70%ile at a high farms schools, at age 8, demonstrates the same potential academically as a kid who scores a 95%ile at a W feeder. Which having been at both, I do think sounds fair.

If you hate this I can see that. But it's equitable. Equitable measures being introduced may mean that certain people's odds change. I don't take issues with this, but I do think a blind lottery post-cutoff is a mistake. It is meaningful to have teachers weigh in on things, and the outcomes for equity can be increased without resorting to straight up lottery. In the end though, what MCPS needs is increased access to enrichment for way more children, and perhaps they should consider re-adding a selective process for these more selective cohorts of highly capable kids (and yes, my kid was admitted to two of those in the past, so I can speak to the quality - they were/are excellent).

+2 I'll add that folks on this very site were claiming within recent memory that a 99th percentile kid couldn't possibly be expected to learn alongside a 95th percentile kid.

While I do think that 60th percentile is too low, I'd note that the schools in that category are among the absolute poorest in the district. It is not, as previously assumed, every single Title I school. It's the schools where the overwhelming majority of kids are living in poverty and/or have experienced trauma. Scoring a 70th percentile under those circumstances may well demonstrate more potential than a kid scoring in the 93rd percentile with every advantage possible.

+3

I teach in one of these MS magnets. We also see more resilience and innovation in the students coming from higher FARMS schools.