A Question about HS Math

[Anonymous]

Honors pre-calc is a very challenging course. DD's friends who were pretty good at math and in honors all the way through dropped down to regular pre calc.

I don't know about most of those courses except stats (which isn't that difficult). But responding to folks recommending the AP sequences-- regular (not honors) pre calc puts you on track for AP AB Calc. Honors pre-calc gives you background necessary for AP BC calc-- at our school about half the kids finishing Honors pre calc go to AB and about half go to BC.

You can't go from regular pre calc to BC because the "A" material (in AB) is covered in Honors pre calc but not regular pre calc). That's the way it is at Churchill, at least.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good discussion. As a high school math teacher, I would question taking both Calculus with Applications and AP Calculus AB. There is a huge overlap in content. Students usually don't need a year of limits, derivatives, and integrals, followed by another year of the same general content. If they are seeking an AP course after 11th grade Calculus with Applications, then they might better take AP Stat, which is applicable to more career paths in college. If they see themselves becoming an engineer, physicist, etc., it might be best to take AP Calc AB or BC in 11th and multivariable in 12th.

Colleges want to see AP Calculus. For a student who is not interested in math or STEM taking Calc with Applications gives the student a foundation for taking AP Calc. MCPS doesn’t have many options for slowing down the math track but this is one possibility. And Honors Precalc is not actually a foundation for AP Calc.

Sorry, but I have to kindly disagree on a number of fronts.

Colleges do not want to necessarily see AP Calculus any more than any other course (AP Biology, AP History...). If a student is vying for a competitive STEM program in college, then AP Calculus might be an important factor; otherwise, colleges are looking at many things, including GPA, overall rigor of a student's high school courses, letters of recommendation, student essays, extra-curriculars, and work/volunteer experiences. I have written hundreds of college recommendation letters for my students and students who have not taken AP Calculus are accepted to top colleges.

A student not interested in math or STEM does not have to take either Calculus with Applications (an honors math course) or AP Calculus. There are other pathways to college and career success. A student who has demonstrated excellence in writing, history, or art, for instance, can still get offers from top colleges - even if their math courses in high school did not include Calculus. For these students, following up Algebra 2 with, just say, Pre-Calculus and Statistics is a fine path to take.

Taking Calculus with Applications is not just a "foundation" for AP Calculus as it overlaps much of the same content. It's like saying that on-level U.S. History is a foundation for Honors U.S. History. In most situations, taking Calculus with Applications and then taking AP Calculus is going to be somewhat wasteful, as so much of the content is the same. It would be like taking Spanish 3 one year and then Honors Spanish 3 the next. Although there are some unique student situations out there, taking both the honors and AP Calculus courses is probably not the best path.

I'm not sure how you concluded that Honors Pre-Calculus is not a foundation for AP Calculus. AP Calculus certainly builds on the skills learned in Pre-Calculus. It is true that Pre-Calculus is not the ONLY foundation for AP Calculus, as AP Calculus also requires content learned in Algebra and Algebra 2, and to a lesser extent, Geometry.

There are no other options if you have a child who takes honors precalc in 10th. I’ve talked to the math resource teacher. What classes do you suggest for 11th and 12th after honors precalc that do not include AP Calc?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine went from Hon Pre Calc to on level Pre Calc in 10th. He will be taking Calculus with Applications in 11th. 12th is to be determined, but most likely AP Calc (not sure if it will be AB or BC). He has a much better foundation now after going to on level for pre calculus. Having Algebra 2 virtually was not great for him to actually learn and retain anything.

OP here yes, this is the issue we've been having too, the foundation years of Algebra 1 & Geometry which were virtual are all but forgotten (I know they were also 60% missing). The 4 page math revision work provided by the HS is only half done because my kid now cannot remember how to do the rest. And that was in person last year.

This might cause problems for SAT testing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine went from Hon Pre Calc to on level Pre Calc in 10th. He will be taking Calculus with Applications in 11th. 12th is to be determined, but most likely AP Calc (not sure if it will be AB or BC). He has a much better foundation now after going to on level for pre calculus. Having Algebra 2 virtually was not great for him to actually learn and retain anything.

OP here yes, this is the issue we've been having too, the foundation years of Algebra 1 & Geometry which were virtual are all but forgotten (I know they were also 60% missing). The 4 page math revision work provided by the HS is only half done because my kid now cannot remember how to do the rest. And that was in person last year.

This might cause problems for SAT testing.

Yes, I expect so too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine went from Hon Pre Calc to on level Pre Calc in 10th. He will be taking Calculus with Applications in 11th. 12th is to be determined, but most likely AP Calc (not sure if it will be AB or BC). He has a much better foundation now after going to on level for pre calculus. Having Algebra 2 virtually was not great for him to actually learn and retain anything.

OP here yes, this is the issue we've been having too, the foundation years of Algebra 1 & Geometry which were virtual are all but forgotten (I know they were also 60% missing). The 4 page math revision work provided by the HS is only half done because my kid now cannot remember how to do the rest. And that was in person last year.

This might cause problems for SAT testing.

Yes, I expect so too.

My child is experiencing the same. She had part of Geometry and all of Algebra 2 online. Did not learn anything. She’s been studying for the ACT this summer and her math score is the lowest of the 4 scores. I’m not sure what to do. School is not concerned because she has gotten all As in math (including in person Hon Precalc). Even though she took precalc in person she was able to redo every test and I suspect that the students were all sharing answers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine went from Hon Pre Calc to on level Pre Calc in 10th. He will be taking Calculus with Applications in 11th. 12th is to be determined, but most likely AP Calc (not sure if it will be AB or BC). He has a much better foundation now after going to on level for pre calculus. Having Algebra 2 virtually was not great for him to actually learn and retain anything.

OP here yes, this is the issue we've been having too, the foundation years of Algebra 1 & Geometry which were virtual are all but forgotten (I know they were also 60% missing). The 4 page math revision work provided by the HS is only half done because my kid now cannot remember how to do the rest. And that was in person last year.

This might cause problems for SAT testing.

Yes, I expect so too.

My child is experiencing the same. She had part of Geometry and all of Algebra 2 online. Did not learn anything. She’s been studying for the ACT this summer and her math score is the lowest of the 4 scores. I’m not sure what to do. School is not concerned because she has gotten all As in math (including in person Hon Precalc). Even though she took precalc in person she was able to redo every test and I suspect that the students were all sharing answers.

redoing answers often helps with learning (as well as grades)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine went from Hon Pre Calc to on level Pre Calc in 10th. He will be taking Calculus with Applications in 11th. 12th is to be determined, but most likely AP Calc (not sure if it will be AB or BC). He has a much better foundation now after going to on level for pre calculus. Having Algebra 2 virtually was not great for him to actually learn and retain anything.

OP here yes, this is the issue we've been having too, the foundation years of Algebra 1 & Geometry which were virtual are all but forgotten (I know they were also 60% missing). The 4 page math revision work provided by the HS is only half done because my kid now cannot remember how to do the rest. And that was in person last year.

This might cause problems for SAT testing.

Yes, I expect so too.

My child is experiencing the same. She had part of Geometry and all of Algebra 2 online. Did not learn anything. She’s been studying for the ACT this summer and her math score is the lowest of the 4 scores. I’m not sure what to do. School is not concerned because she has gotten all As in math (including in person Hon Precalc). Even though she took precalc in person she was able to redo every test and I suspect that the students were all sharing answers.

Get a Tutor to focus on math for standardized testing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine went from Hon Pre Calc to on level Pre Calc in 10th. He will be taking Calculus with Applications in 11th. 12th is to be determined, but most likely AP Calc (not sure if it will be AB or BC). He has a much better foundation now after going to on level for pre calculus. Having Algebra 2 virtually was not great for him to actually learn and retain anything.

OP here yes, this is the issue we've been having too, the foundation years of Algebra 1 & Geometry which were virtual are all but forgotten (I know they were also 60% missing). The 4 page math revision work provided by the HS is only half done because my kid now cannot remember how to do the rest. And that was in person last year.

This might cause problems for SAT testing.

Yes, I expect so too.

My child is experiencing the same. She had part of Geometry and all of Algebra 2 online. Did not learn anything. She’s been studying for the ACT this summer and her math score is the lowest of the 4 scores. I’m not sure what to do. School is not concerned because she has gotten all As in math (including in person Hon Precalc). Even though she took precalc in person she was able to redo every test and I suspect that the students were all sharing answers.

redoing answers often helps with learning (as well as grades)

It doesn’t help if they are cheating

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good discussion. As a high school math teacher, I would question taking both Calculus with Applications and AP Calculus AB. There is a huge overlap in content. Students usually don't need a year of limits, derivatives, and integrals, followed by another year of the same general content. If they are seeking an AP course after 11th grade Calculus with Applications, then they might better take AP Stat, which is applicable to more career paths in college. If they see themselves becoming an engineer, physicist, etc., it might be best to take AP Calc AB or BC in 11th and multivariable in 12th.

Colleges want to see AP Calculus. For a student who is not interested in math or STEM taking Calc with Applications gives the student a foundation for taking AP Calc. MCPS doesn’t have many options for slowing down the math track but this is one possibility. And Honors Precalc is not actually a foundation for AP Calc.

Sorry, but I have to kindly disagree on a number of fronts.

Colleges do not want to necessarily see AP Calculus any more than any other course (AP Biology, AP History...). If a student is vying for a competitive STEM program in college, then AP Calculus might be an important factor; otherwise, colleges are looking at many things, including GPA, overall rigor of a student's high school courses, letters of recommendation, student essays, extra-curriculars, and work/volunteer experiences. I have written hundreds of college recommendation letters for my students and students who have not taken AP Calculus are accepted to top colleges.

A student not interested in math or STEM does not have to take either Calculus with Applications (an honors math course) or AP Calculus. There are other pathways to college and career success. A student who has demonstrated excellence in writing, history, or art, for instance, can still get offers from top colleges - even if their math courses in high school did not include Calculus. For these students, following up Algebra 2 with, just say, Pre-Calculus and Statistics is a fine path to take.

Taking Calculus with Applications is not just a "foundation" for AP Calculus as it overlaps much of the same content. It's like saying that on-level U.S. History is a foundation for Honors U.S. History. In most situations, taking Calculus with Applications and then taking AP Calculus is going to be somewhat wasteful, as so much of the content is the same. It would be like taking Spanish 3 one year and then Honors Spanish 3 the next. Although there are some unique student situations out there, taking both the honors and AP Calculus courses is probably not the best path.

I'm not sure how you concluded that Honors Pre-Calculus is not a foundation for AP Calculus. AP Calculus certainly builds on the skills learned in Pre-Calculus. It is true that Pre-Calculus is not the ONLY foundation for AP Calculus, as AP Calculus also requires content learned in Algebra and Algebra 2, and to a lesser extent, Geometry.

There are no other options if you have a child who takes honors precalc in 10th. I’ve talked to the math resource teacher. What classes do you suggest for 11th and 12th after honors precalc that do not include AP Calc?

Pretty sure others above have recommended regular Calc, not AP, and AP Statistics. I believe there is also the option of doing Montgomery College math classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good discussion. As a high school math teacher, I would question taking both Calculus with Applications and AP Calculus AB. There is a huge overlap in content. Students usually don't need a year of limits, derivatives, and integrals, followed by another year of the same general content. If they are seeking an AP course after 11th grade Calculus with Applications, then they might better take AP Stat, which is applicable to more career paths in college. If they see themselves becoming an engineer, physicist, etc., it might be best to take AP Calc AB or BC in 11th and multivariable in 12th.

Colleges want to see AP Calculus. For a student who is not interested in math or STEM taking Calc with Applications gives the student a foundation for taking AP Calc. MCPS doesn’t have many options for slowing down the math track but this is one possibility. And Honors Precalc is not actually a foundation for AP Calc.

Sorry, but I have to kindly disagree on a number of fronts.

Colleges do not want to necessarily see AP Calculus any more than any other course (AP Biology, AP History...). If a student is vying for a competitive STEM program in college, then AP Calculus might be an important factor; otherwise, colleges are looking at many things, including GPA, overall rigor of a student's high school courses, letters of recommendation, student essays, extra-curriculars, and work/volunteer experiences. I have written hundreds of college recommendation letters for my students and students who have not taken AP Calculus are accepted to top colleges.

A student not interested in math or STEM does not have to take either Calculus with Applications (an honors math course) or AP Calculus. There are other pathways to college and career success. A student who has demonstrated excellence in writing, history, or art, for instance, can still get offers from top colleges - even if their math courses in high school did not include Calculus. For these students, following up Algebra 2 with, just say, Pre-Calculus and Statistics is a fine path to take.

Taking Calculus with Applications is not just a "foundation" for AP Calculus as it overlaps much of the same content. It's like saying that on-level U.S. History is a foundation for Honors U.S. History. In most situations, taking Calculus with Applications and then taking AP Calculus is going to be somewhat wasteful, as so much of the content is the same. It would be like taking Spanish 3 one year and then Honors Spanish 3 the next. Although there are some unique student situations out there, taking both the honors and AP Calculus courses is probably not the best path.

I'm not sure how you concluded that Honors Pre-Calculus is not a foundation for AP Calculus. AP Calculus certainly builds on the skills learned in Pre-Calculus. It is true that Pre-Calculus is not the ONLY foundation for AP Calculus, as AP Calculus also requires content learned in Algebra and Algebra 2, and to a lesser extent, Geometry.

There are no other options if you have a child who takes honors precalc in 10th. I’ve talked to the math resource teacher. What classes do you suggest for 11th and 12th after honors precalc that do not include AP Calc?

Pretty sure others above have recommended regular Calc, not AP, and AP Statistics. I believe there is also the option of doing Montgomery College math classes

OP here I didn't ask that question, though it might appear it was from me. I have been reading all the answers in detail and that looks like someone who hasn't yet had the chance to do so.

Thanks everyone it has been really helpful and enlightening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good discussion. As a high school math teacher, I would question taking both Calculus with Applications and AP Calculus AB. There is a huge overlap in content. Students usually don't need a year of limits, derivatives, and integrals, followed by another year of the same general content. If they are seeking an AP course after 11th grade Calculus with Applications, then they might better take AP Stat, which is applicable to more career paths in college. If they see themselves becoming an engineer, physicist, etc., it might be best to take AP Calc AB or BC in 11th and multivariable in 12th.

Colleges want to see AP Calculus. For a student who is not interested in math or STEM taking Calc with Applications gives the student a foundation for taking AP Calc. MCPS doesn’t have many options for slowing down the math track but this is one possibility. And Honors Precalc is not actually a foundation for AP Calc.

Sorry, but I have to kindly disagree on a number of fronts.

Colleges do not want to necessarily see AP Calculus any more than any other course (AP Biology, AP History...). If a student is vying for a competitive STEM program in college, then AP Calculus might be an important factor; otherwise, colleges are looking at many things, including GPA, overall rigor of a student's high school courses, letters of recommendation, student essays, extra-curriculars, and work/volunteer experiences. I have written hundreds of college recommendation letters for my students and students who have not taken AP Calculus are accepted to top colleges.

A student not interested in math or STEM does not have to take either Calculus with Applications (an honors math course) or AP Calculus. There are other pathways to college and career success. A student who has demonstrated excellence in writing, history, or art, for instance, can still get offers from top colleges - even if their math courses in high school did not include Calculus. For these students, following up Algebra 2 with, just say, Pre-Calculus and Statistics is a fine path to take.

Taking Calculus with Applications is not just a "foundation" for AP Calculus as it overlaps much of the same content. It's like saying that on-level U.S. History is a foundation for Honors U.S. History. In most situations, taking Calculus with Applications and then taking AP Calculus is going to be somewhat wasteful, as so much of the content is the same. It would be like taking Spanish 3 one year and then Honors Spanish 3 the next. Although there are some unique student situations out there, taking both the honors and AP Calculus courses is probably not the best path.

I'm not sure how you concluded that Honors Pre-Calculus is not a foundation for AP Calculus. AP Calculus certainly builds on the skills learned in Pre-Calculus. It is true that Pre-Calculus is not the ONLY foundation for AP Calculus, as AP Calculus also requires content learned in Algebra and Algebra 2, and to a lesser extent, Geometry.

There are no other options if you have a child who takes honors precalc in 10th. I’ve talked to the math resource teacher. What classes do you suggest for 11th and 12th after honors precalc that do not include AP Calc?

Pretty sure others above have recommended regular Calc, not AP, and AP Statistics. I believe there is also the option of doing Montgomery College math classes

My child’s school doesn’t offer regular Calc. Only AP.

[Anonymous]

Also, if your kid is aiming for the top schools and is applying from close in DMV without a hook, they need the “most rigorous” courses - generally this is an AP calc of some sort, I think AB is fine if he isn’t doing stem. And for top schools, I’d be shocked if any unhooked kids are getting into ivies (of course) if they didn’t have AP calc (and no AP stat and regular calc isn’t considered rigorous for the very top colleges. This now is extending to the teir below - I would be shocked if more than 3-5% of the UMC DMV applicants to UVA or Boston University or Bates/bowdoin/Colby (for instance) were accepted without AP calc (or the IB equivalent).

I am a math teacher, and I worked at a fancy DC private for about 10 years. I agree with the assessment that precalc is harder than calc for students. This is true for a few reasons. The jump to higher level thinking between algebra 2 and precalc is larger than the jump between precalc and calc AB. Trigonometry is very conceptual and hard to digest when students first learn it most just resort to memorizing unfortunately. In calc the material is much more straightforward and logical IMO. There is also so much more context and applications.

I would recommend taking the easiest precalc possible that would still qualify him for AB and get an A in both courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, if your kid is aiming for the top schools and is applying from close in DMV without a hook, they need the “most rigorous” courses - generally this is an AP calc of some sort, I think AB is fine if he isn’t doing stem. And for top schools, I’d be shocked if any unhooked kids are getting into ivies (of course) if they didn’t have AP calc (and no AP stat and regular calc isn’t considered rigorous for the very top colleges. This now is extending to the teir below - I would be shocked if more than 3-5% of the UMC DMV applicants to UVA or Boston University or Bates/bowdoin/Colby (for instance) were accepted without AP calc (or the IB equivalent).

I am a math teacher, and I worked at a fancy DC private for about 10 years. I agree with the assessment that precalc is harder than calc for students. This is true for a few reasons. The jump to higher level thinking between algebra 2 and precalc is larger than the jump between precalc and calc AB. Trigonometry is very conceptual and hard to digest when students first learn it most just resort to memorizing unfortunately. In calc the material is much more straightforward and logical IMO. There is also so much more context and applications.

I would recommend taking the easiest precalc possible that would still qualify him for AB and get an A in both courses.

I think you've not read the OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:mine dropped out from hon pre-cal to pre-cal at 10

then

calculus with applications 11
intro to statistics 12

Thank you. Do you know anything about those other courses? If there's a hierarchy of which ones are considered slightly more challenging than others? I'd like to take the pressure off, but not dump them in the lowest class possible, necessarily.

I suggest you look in the school's course bulletin. It should list prerequisites and tell you which classes are considered "advanced level." That's helpful in lining up the classes. Also, you can check with the counselor or your child's math teacher about which classes are most appropriate for them.

Mulltivariable calculus comes after Calculus BC. It is very advanced for a HS student.
Linear Algebra also should be after calculus
Quantitative literacy is a lower level class for students who struggle with math.
Calculus with applications is calculus that's lower than AP
Intro to statistics is lower than AP statistics

If your child isn't a math kid, then having calculus in HS, even if it's not AP should be fine. If your child wants to major in a STEM field, particularly computer science, physics, or math, they will need AP at most colleges, and many will want to see Calculus BC.

[Anonymous]

MCPS has offered free tutoring for the past year and plans to continue it next year.