HB Woodlawn -- High School Only

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, Arlington Public Schools is big on magnet programs at all levels, and HB is considered the jewel among them. They're not about to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As another poster has noted, HB does a lot of things to make the model work, and they can't just change it into a 4th high school. I get it -- you're jealous of its existence.

Let me be VERY clear. Arlington has ZERO magnets. All schools are lottery.

Thank you! This is what drives me most crazy about all the option school conversations in Arlington. In an ideal world, a school district would offer option schools that are readily available to all students who would most benefit from those alternative environments. That is *not* what we have in Arlington. It is a random lottery. Sure, there are kids getting HBW spots who are doing much better there than they would at the traditional high schools. But there are also kids at HBW who would do just fine at YT, WL, WF, etc. And there are a lot of kids who are REALLY struggling in the large high schools who would benefit from HBW, but they didn't even get a chance to make their case for a spot because it is a lottery.

Even if you bumped the middle school kids out and made HBW 9-12, it would still be considerably smaller than the other three high schools. More kids deserve a chance to access that smaller environment, especially at the high school level when college and career opportunities are on the horizon. Blowing up WL to be a 3,000 person high school is only going to make the current disparities even worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a middle schooler and HB and this sounds like a good plan to me.

But I have always wondered why we can’t use more office space for schools? Is it the lack of grass? I get we like our green space, but lots of kids in cities have to deal with a lack of green space, and it seems like not having green space is a small price to pay for not having overcrowded schools.

How do you decide which kids get to go to schools with green space and who has to sit in an office building and do recess in a parking lot? That was why HB ended up at the Heights, because people in the surrounding neighborhoods didn’t want their kids to be forced to go to school there, and since HB is an option program no one is forced to attend.

Well, this is high school discussion, so recess is not a thing, but same priciple applies. Who doesn't get a pool, football field, full gymansium, etc.

The problem isn't not getting a pool or field. It's people insisting that all of the amenities have to be on-site.
An office building can easily accommodate a gymnasium and auditorium.

Original “green space” poster here. I seem to recall that a big obstacle to building an extra elementary schools is that there is some requirement that the site have green space. Which seemed so odd to me because isn’t it better to just reduce the green space requirement than to have overcrowded schools?

I think the focus is more on secondary levels of education when thinking about office space. In the very beginning, elementary may have been a focus; but APS made it clear there are other concerns like ensuring preK and K are on the ground level - which is required by law(?) or by APS policy(?). There was never any interest or intent on APS' part to deal with office buildings or any real estate they didn't already own. They "branched out" in considering APS or COUNTY-owned land.

My comment about on-site facilities stems from the whole Career Center fiasco. The initial work came to an extremely divisive point about "equity" and whether that means every comprehensive high school has to have the same amenities, especially a pool because the other three existing ones have pools. Some refused to accept traveling to Long Bridge for a few weeks of swim instruction or for extracurricular team practices an egregious violation of equity. Same with not having a full sized stadium AND other ball fields on site. Funny, nobody seemed to care about on-site tennis courts. I guess equity only applies to certain activities.

I wonder if there is an analogous requirement for middle and high schools? Obviously budget is a big issue but if there is some requirement, like having a field or a gymnasium in a certain spot, that is stopping APs from building more schools, could we re-think that requirement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a middle schooler and HB and this sounds like a good plan to me.

But I have always wondered why we can’t use more office space for schools? Is it the lack of grass? I get we like our green space, but lots of kids in cities have to deal with a lack of green space, and it seems like not having green space is a small price to pay for not having overcrowded schools.

How do you decide which kids get to go to schools with green space and who has to sit in an office building and do recess in a parking lot? That was why HB ended up at the Heights, because people in the surrounding neighborhoods didn’t want their kids to be forced to go to school there, and since HB is an option program no one is forced to attend.

Well, this is high school discussion, so recess is not a thing, but same priciple applies. Who doesn't get a pool, football field, full gymansium, etc.

The problem isn't not getting a pool or field. It's people insisting that all of the amenities have to be on-site.
An office building can easily accommodate a gymnasium and auditorium.

Original “green space” poster here. I seem to recall that a big obstacle to building an extra elementary schools is that there is some requirement that the site have green space. Which seemed so odd to me because isn’t it better to just reduce the green space requirement than to have overcrowded schools?

I think the focus is more on secondary levels of education when thinking about office space. In the very beginning, elementary may have been a focus; but APS made it clear there are other concerns like ensuring preK and K are on the ground level - which is required by law(?) or by APS policy(?). There was never any interest or intent on APS' part to deal with office buildings or any real estate they didn't already own. They "branched out" in considering APS or COUNTY-owned land.

My comment about on-site facilities stems from the whole Career Center fiasco. The initial work came to an extremely divisive point about "equity" and whether that means every comprehensive high school has to have the same amenities, especially a pool because the other three existing ones have pools. Some refused to accept traveling to Long Bridge for a few weeks of swim instruction or for extracurricular team practices an egregious violation of equity. Same with not having a full sized stadium AND other ball fields on site. Funny, nobody seemed to care about on-site tennis courts. I guess equity only applies to certain activities.

I wonder if there is an analogous requirement for middle and high schools? Obviously budget is a big issue but if there is some requirement, like having a field or a gymnasium in a certain spot, that is stopping APs from building more schools, could we re-think that requirement?

Sorry, this got out of order when I responded. Should go here:
I think the focus is more on secondary levels of education when thinking about office space. In the very beginning, elementary may have been a focus; but APS made it clear there are other concerns like ensuring preK and K are on the ground level - which is required by law(?) or by APS policy(?). There was never any interest or intent on APS' part to deal with office buildings or any real estate they didn't already own. They "branched out" in considering APS or COUNTY-owned land.

My comment about on-site facilities stems from the whole Career Center fiasco. The initial work came to an extremely divisive point about "equity" and whether that means every comprehensive high school has to have the same amenities, especially a pool because the other three existing ones have pools. Some refused to accept traveling to Long Bridge for a few weeks of swim instruction or for extracurricular team practices an egregious violation of equity. Same with not having a full sized stadium AND other ball fields on site. Funny, nobody seemed to care about on-site tennis courts. I guess equity only applies to certain activities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, Arlington Public Schools is big on magnet programs at all levels, and HB is considered the jewel among them. They're not about to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As another poster has noted, HB does a lot of things to make the model work, and they can't just change it into a 4th high school. I get it -- you're jealous of its existence.

Let me be VERY clear. Arlington has ZERO magnets. All schools are lottery.

Thank you! This is what drives me most crazy about all the option school conversations in Arlington. In an ideal world, a school district would offer option schools that are readily available to all students who would most benefit from those alternative environments. That is *not* what we have in Arlington. It is a random lottery. Sure, there are kids getting HBW spots who are doing much better there than they would at the traditional high schools. But there are also kids at HBW who would do just fine at YT, WL, WF, etc. And there are a lot of kids who are REALLY struggling in the large high schools who would benefit from HBW, but they didn't even get a chance to make their case for a spot because it is a lottery.

Even if you bumped the middle school kids out and made HBW 9-12, it would still be considerably smaller than the other three high schools. More kids deserve a chance to access that smaller environment, especially at the high school level when college and career opportunities are on the horizon. Blowing up WL to be a 3,000 person high school is only going to make the current disparities even worse.

+100
I love you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a middle schooler and HB and this sounds like a good plan to me.

But I have always wondered why we can’t use more office space for schools? Is it the lack of grass? I get we like our green space, but lots of kids in cities have to deal with a lack of green space, and it seems like not having green space is a small price to pay for not having overcrowded schools.

How do you decide which kids get to go to schools with green space and who has to sit in an office building and do recess in a parking lot? That was why HB ended up at the Heights, because people in the surrounding neighborhoods didn’t want their kids to be forced to go to school there, and since HB is an option program no one is forced to attend.

Kids don't do recess in HS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, Arlington Public Schools is big on magnet programs at all levels, and HB is considered the jewel among them. They're not about to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As another poster has noted, HB does a lot of things to make the model work, and they can't just change it into a 4th high school. I get it -- you're jealous of its existence.

Let me be VERY clear. Arlington has ZERO magnets. All schools are lottery.

Thank you! This is what drives me most crazy about all the option school conversations in Arlington. In an ideal world, a school district would offer option schools that are readily available to all students who would most benefit from those alternative environments. That is *not* what we have in Arlington. It is a random lottery. Sure, there are kids getting HBW spots who are doing much better there than they would at the traditional high schools. But there are also kids at HBW who would do just fine at YT, WL, WF, etc. And there are a lot of kids who are REALLY struggling in the large high schools who would benefit from HBW, but they didn't even get a chance to make their case for a spot because it is a lottery.

Even if you bumped the middle school kids out and made HBW 9-12, it would still be considerably smaller than the other three high schools. More kids deserve a chance to access that smaller environment, especially at the high school level when college and career opportunities are on the horizon. Blowing up WL to be a 3,000 person high school is only going to make the current disparities even worse.

+100
I love you!

Posters are splitting hairs. Lottery schools, magnet programs, whatever you want to call them -- the bottom line is that APS has long supported alternative programs that have been highly successful and isn't about to and shouldn't be expected to shut down programs that have been successful for decades simply because of overcrowding issues. This isn't the first time the schools have been overcrowded, either.

The only reason HB shifted to a lottery, by the way, is that in the past it awarded seats on a first-come, first-served basis, and rich families with the flexibility that poorer families didn't have would literally camp out in line all night. There's no perfect answer here.

I mean, c'mon. Jamestown for example has very high test scores. Does that mean that every student in the county should have the right to send their kid to that school? How about Fairfax County? TJ is awesome -- why can't every student in Fairfax County go there? Not fair! Or School Without Walls, a lottery school in DC. Such a great school -- shut it down unless every DC kid can go.

You're all being ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

No one said shut it down. They did say that HB needs to take more kids, though. There shouldn't be a private school option (HB) while all the other schools bust at the seams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one said shut it down. They did say that HB needs to take more kids, though. There shouldn't be a private school option (HB) while all the other schools bust at the seams.

To be fair, some did say shut it down and make it a regular large high school.
Nevertheless, a variety of programs that serve different types of learners is a good thing. What some are saying, me included, is that those programs' admissions should be set up so they are most likely to serve the kids who would most benefit from them - not the kids who would do equally well in their districted school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, Arlington Public Schools is big on magnet programs at all levels, and HB is considered the jewel among them. They're not about to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As another poster has noted, HB does a lot of things to make the model work, and they can't just change it into a 4th high school. I get it -- you're jealous of its existence.

Let me be VERY clear. Arlington has ZERO magnets. All schools are lottery.

Thank you! This is what drives me most crazy about all the option school conversations in Arlington. In an ideal world, a school district would offer option schools that are readily available to all students who would most benefit from those alternative environments. That is *not* what we have in Arlington. It is a random lottery. Sure, there are kids getting HBW spots who are doing much better there than they would at the traditional high schools. But there are also kids at HBW who would do just fine at YT, WL, WF, etc. And there are a lot of kids who are REALLY struggling in the large high schools who would benefit from HBW, but they didn't even get a chance to make their case for a spot because it is a lottery.

Even if you bumped the middle school kids out and made HBW 9-12, it would still be considerably smaller than the other three high schools. More kids deserve a chance to access that smaller environment, especially at the high school level when college and career opportunities are on the horizon. Blowing up WL to be a 3,000 person high school is only going to make the current disparities even worse.

+100
I love you!

Posters are splitting hairs. Lottery schools, magnet programs, whatever you want to call them -- the bottom line is that APS has long supported alternative programs that have been highly successful and isn't about to and shouldn't be expected to shut down programs that have been successful for decades simply because of overcrowding issues. This isn't the first time the schools have been overcrowded, either.

The only reason HB shifted to a lottery, by the way, is that in the past it awarded seats on a first-come, first-served basis, and rich families with the flexibility that poorer families didn't have would literally camp out in line all night. There's no perfect answer here.

I mean, c'mon. Jamestown for example has very high test scores. Does that mean that every student in the county should have the right to send their kid to that school? How about Fairfax County? TJ is awesome -- why can't every student in Fairfax County go there? Not fair! Or School Without Walls, a lottery school in DC. Such a great school -- shut it down unless every DC kid can go.

You're all being ridiculous.

Why not?
Ranked choice admissions countywide.
Plus eligibility requirements for special programs to help ensure students who need them have priority over students who don't really need them.

[Anonymous]

we can't afford the choice school BS and need to stop it and my kid is at one. FFS. HB is like a 1% chance. The immersions are higher. Montessori only accepts umc kids with that experience and ATS's acceptance rate is about 5%. Stop it all!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one said shut it down. They did say that HB needs to take more kids, though. There shouldn't be a private school option (HB) while all the other schools bust at the seams.

To be fair, some did say shut it down and make it a regular large high school.
Nevertheless, a variety of programs that serve different types of learners is a good thing. What some are saying, me included, is that those programs' admissions should be set up so they are most likely to serve the kids who would most benefit from them - not the kids who would do equally well in their districted school.

I do believe that students should need to apply in or be recommended, but that’s not how it works. Plus, with a system so overcrowded, we don’t have the luxury to support HB. It’s not an equal education- most students learn better in smaller classrooms and uncrowded shared spaces. Now if APS would open a 4th HS instead of these mega schools…

[Anonymous]

My favorite thing is when ATS parents pine over HB.

[Anonymous]

This reminds me of when middle management comes in and tries to "reorganize your workflow" despite having absolutely no idea what you or your team does or how long it takes to do it. But they made a chart with some numbers so they are pretty sure that they are right and they sure are excited to make it happen. Of course what would be more helpful is if they would make some attempt to understand wtf is going on BEFORE they try to spin everything around, but that's no fun.

Of course we're all just losers on dcum so middle managers may have the jump on us all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This reminds me of when middle management comes in and tries to "reorganize your workflow" despite having absolutely no idea what you or your team does or how long it takes to do it. But they made a chart with some numbers so they are pretty sure that they are right and they sure are excited to make it happen. Of course what would be more helpful is if they would make some attempt to understand wtf is going on BEFORE they try to spin everything around, but that's no fun.

Of course we're all just losers on dcum so middle managers may have the jump on us all.

Wow, how edgy, the HBW parents are calling people "middle managers" for trying to make fair use of public facilities.

Hey guess, we don't really care how you think your HBW program works, I'm sure it can work well in many different configurations, and guess what, MORE students will be better served this way. But it's clear all you care about is "I got mine, so FU".

Middle managers, hilarious. Did you just watch Office Space?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one said shut it down. They did say that HB needs to take more kids, though. There shouldn't be a private school option (HB) while all the other schools bust at the seams.

To be fair, some did say shut it down and make it a regular large high school.
Nevertheless, a variety of programs that serve different types of learners is a good thing. What some are saying, me included, is that those programs' admissions should be set up so they are most likely to serve the kids who would most benefit from them - not the kids who would do equally well in their districted school.

But the thing is...how do you make sure only the kids who would benefit the most get in?

If you make applications based on academics, then you end up with a TJ-like situation and all the problems that has.

If you make it based on teacher recommendations that a kid needs a smaller environment, I'm guessing a lot of kids could get their teachers to recommend them. And if a teacher doesn't want to recommend them but the parent wants them to, that's another potential tension point.

What if you said ok, the kids have to have a medically documented learning or mental health need. You would have a school full of kids with various issues that are severe enough to make the cut.

Also, what about the resources involved in reviewing applications of any type? Who would do it? A panel at HBW? That's a huge resource drain for the school.

The blind lottery system is the best solution.