Does it benefit a doctor's child who's destined to become an MD to pay $$$ for Hopkins or Wash U?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Eh, I think many parents (including doctors) do think this way.

My VA neighbors (both are doctors) have a son who graduated from a Big 3 earlier this year. DS did not have strong enough grades to get into a T20, but did get into the likes of BU and Fordham. DS is set on becoming an MD, so they sent him to JMU. Parents specifically felt that lower cost, easier competition at JMU and their connections for research/internships, plus studying hard for the MCAT would get DS into medical school without the higher cost and higher risks of a BU. They hope/want DS to take over the wife's specialty practice.

Again, this all depends on the priorities - does having an MD matter above all else? Or is name-brand important to the DC? The neighbors went to non-name brand colleges and medical schools yet here they are, living in the DC suburbs. They don't think the undergraduate school matters one bit, just the medical school.

One can only prepare for so much, as happenstance can affect life.

This is not a great anecdote. Do you know the kid's science AP scores (if he took any) or SAT score? The kid is only 19 years old, way too early to predict how things will play out. And if in addition to the lower GPA, the AP and SAT were also so-so, I would bet against him even sitting for the MCAT. Actions speak louder than words.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I am only going by what the parents say. His school does not have AP courses, but the parents said his SATs were in the high 1400s.

Agreed, actions speak louder than words. Will this kid do the work at JMU? Will he get distracted off the pre-med path? Who knows? Motivation and work ethic are probably more important to becoming an MD, or achieving in many professions. It will probably be no different for this kid. I have my doubts about him but I have seen many people go beyond the initial expectations placed on them by their friends and family.

DCUM is a place for spitballing, so we are all postulating here. My point was that are indeed some parents (including MDs) who try to plan out things in this manner to achieve the desired result effectively. Whether this actually works is a different story.

[Anonymous]

Big Three to JMU raises a lot of red flags. JMU isn't even ranked on US News, which means it's not even in the top 300 or 400 nationally. So 4 years at one of the top prep schools in the nation to a non-ranked regional degree mill? And you didn't say he was going for free i.e. scholarship. Are you being honest PP or is that a fabricated story? Doesn't make any sense. If you're not, without looking it up, I'd safely assume less than 5 kids total per year at JMU get into a US medical school.

[Anonymous]

You go to a state school and get phenomenal grades.

I had a lot of friends not make it into med school because their MIT grades made them look bad on applications.

[Anonymous]

No, not going to JMU for free, just at in-state tuition rates.

Oh yes, definitely a lot of red flags with the neighbor kid. I too have serious doubts about this kid, for a lot of reasons.

I am not that enthusiastic about JMU. However, I don't discount it as a "degree mill." It's what is available to NOVA folks since UVA/VT/W&M is becoming less available to us.

BTW, JMU said that they had 12 graduates entering MD programs in 2016 (which is what I could find via Google):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj58qHhpeTzAhV1mXIEHZRpBsUQFnoECAQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmu.edu%2Fpph%2Fpremed%2Fapply%2Foverview%2Findex.shtml&usg=AOvVaw2Bf-Lz6_G3G0b0y7aOm1zC

So it's not 5 kids per year. And during the 2002-2012 period, JMU grads went to the likes of Yale, UVA, Tufts, BU, UCLA, Georgetown, GWU. Some other schools that aren't name brand. But they are still medical schools.

[Anonymous]

Hopkins yes, Wash U no. Nothing special about Wash U.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, the link is this

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjFup2ZqeTzAhXpmeAKHf_wDisQFnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmu.edu%2Fiihhs%2F_files%2FMDaccept02.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2345D4ckiO9Q7CScRxK78F

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, not going to JMU for free, just at in-state tuition rates.

Oh yes, definitely a lot of red flags with the neighbor kid. I too have serious doubts about this kid, for a lot of reasons.

I am not that enthusiastic about JMU. However, I don't discount it as a "degree mill." It's what is available to NOVA folks since UVA/VT/W&M is becoming less available to us.

BTW, JMU said that they had 12 graduates entering MD programs in 2016 (which is what I could find via Google):

So it's not 5 kids per year. And during the 2002-2012 period, JMU grads went to the likes of Yale, UVA, Tufts, BU, UCLA, Georgetown, GWU. Some other schools that aren't name brand. But they are still medical schools.

5 to 12 is about what I'd assume. That's out of 22,000 undergraduates. And how many of the 5 to 12 are URMs and first generation college students, i.e. highly hooked medical school applicants. Probably all of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is not your family, so it is not your business.

+1, seriously

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In-laws, wife works part-time, husband is an MD. A super genuine and good family. They are upper middle class but I don't know if they're "rich." He's a first generation MD.

Their kids are great students and obsessed with becoming doctors like dad. It's obvious they are one of those families that somehow grooms their kids to become doctors. The oldest is a senior and has a free 100% full scholarship on the table to a regional hometown private college where they live (not DMV). Mom shared the other few colleges the oldest is applying to are Wash U, Hopkins, and Vanderbilt.

I'm just wondering the analysis $75K x 4 = $300K for undergrad vs. literally $0? I safely assume the teen will have a far better chance at a near 4.0 GPA at the regional college. That said, of course the competitiveness, experiences, and the all new friend group (and potential spouse, if we're being frank) you meet at a place like Wash U has value, too – but how much (extra) value?

I went to Wash. U. and took a premed weed-out class there. I got weeded out of my intended, non-premed major, but that was because I was cocky and lazy. The weed-out class itself was a big, pleasant class. I never really felt as if I was competing against the other students.

The premeds I knew who went to medical school were lovely people. So, if it’s really true that premeds at Johns Hopkins premeds are unpleasant, maybe that would be a reason to prefer Wash. U. over Johns Hopkins.

As for choosing between the local school and Wash. U.: If you have a kid who (after adjustments for socioeconomic status, test phobia, IQ test quality, weak testers, etc.) is the kind of kid who scores about 164 or up on a good IQ test, that kid really needs a T20, or the equivalent top liberal arts college program, or an equivalent state flagship honors program, because, unless that kid went to Stuyvesant or Thomas Jefferson, going to a top college is the only hope the kid will have of hanging out with many other equally bright kids.

The smartest kids at Wash. U. or Johns Hopkins are to a regular local college student what a regular local college student is to a kid in classes for children with severe learning disabilities.

If you had a kid with severe special disabilities, you’d hit up relatives and borrow what you could to give that kid a shot at a normal life.

I think parents should do the same for kids who are at the 164+ IQ level. If they’re in a program at the Wash. U. level or higher, maybe 5 percent to 10 percent of the kids they meet will be of comparable intelligence. They might be a little lonely even there, but at least they can go for four years without having to dumb down everything they say. They can experience the joy of having to work a little to get a good grade. I think it’s cruel for parents who could send a kid like that to a very selective school without big problems to try to save money by not doing that. Why do you have money if not to be able to give your kids a chance to flourish?

For regular bright kids, the local college might work just as well. The classes might not be quite the same, but, if the classes help kids like yours get good MCAT scores, they’re good enough. Regular great bright kids might get more faculty love, and regular bright students might have more time and energy for application-enhancing activities.

Seek therapy.

If we’re thinking about this topic at all, and we’re not the parents of high school juniors or seniors, we should seek therapy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, not going to JMU for free, just at in-state tuition rates.

Oh yes, definitely a lot of red flags with the neighbor kid. I too have serious doubts about this kid, for a lot of reasons.

I am not that enthusiastic about JMU. However, I don't discount it as a "degree mill." It's what is available to NOVA folks since UVA/VT/W&M is becoming less available to us.

BTW, JMU said that they had 12 graduates entering MD programs in 2016 (which is what I could find via Google):

So it's not 5 kids per year. And during the 2002-2012 period, JMU grads went to the likes of Yale, UVA, Tufts, BU, UCLA, Georgetown, GWU. Some other schools that aren't name brand. But they are still medical schools.

5 to 12 is about what I'd assume. That's out of 22,000 undergraduates. And how many of the 5 to 12 are URMs and first generation college students, i.e. highly hooked medical school applicants. Probably all of them.

Medical schools are stat driven for admissions. You need a high MCAT and GPA to be admitted. JMU is simply going to have a lower percentage of undergraduate kids that get high stats compared to schools like UVA and W&M, which will result in fewer applying and fewer getting admitted. In a recent year, JMU had 67 apply to medical school vs 155 for W&M and 393 for UVA. So over 9% of each class is applying to medical school at UVA and W&M vs. about 1.3% at JMU. (In comparison, JHU had 455 applying, which is about 29% or a graduating class.) According to the URL shared for JMU pre-med, the acceptance rate is about 44% for Allopathic medical schools for JMU over the 2002-2010 period. According to their pre-med websites, the recent ranges for UVA has been 60%-52% acceptance rate per year (to at least one medical school) and W&M 65%-50%. (In comparison, Penn reported 80% acceptance in 2020.)

But the rub is better students tend to attend better schools, so this is simply to be expected. I suspect the actual value of the school in the acceptance equation is limited.

https://www.aamc.org/media/9636/download

https://www.jmu.edu/iihhs/_files/MDaccept02.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hopkins yes, Wash U no. Nothing special about Wash U.

Wash U has lots of $$$ and the administration will spend tons of money to improve its departments and national standing. It's Ivy-equivalent but JHU isn't. The students are hyper-competitive, has no school spirit or whatsoever. Everyone who went to JHU hated the school, but not WashU. It's like the Princeton of the midwest and is situated in a much more pleasant area of STL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hopkins yes, Wash U no. Nothing special about Wash U.

Wash U has lots of $$$ and the administration will spend tons of money to improve its departments and national standing. It's Ivy-equivalent but JHU isn't. The students are hyper-competitive, has no school spirit or whatsoever. Everyone who went to JHU hated the school, but not WashU. It's like the Princeton of the midwest and is situated in a much more pleasant area of STL.

Nope, not even close. Its a good school but nothing special about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In-laws, wife works part-time, husband is an MD. A super genuine and good family. They are upper middle class but I don't know if they're "rich." He's a first generation MD.

Their kids are great students and obsessed with becoming doctors like dad. It's obvious they are one of those families that somehow grooms their kids to become doctors. The oldest is a senior and has a free 100% full scholarship on the table to a regional hometown private college where they live (not DMV).

Or their kids are smart and hardworking and think medicine would be a rewarding career.

OP, you seem judgmental and intrusive, yet uninformed. Back off.

Also, as someone whose kid is at a local bargain institution, let me say that you tend to get what you pay for. Lots of parents are complaining about access to professors or quality of classes, and it grinds my gears. Low professor-student ratios cost money. Admit rates aren't everything, but a school that admits more than half of its applicants is widening its net by lowering its standards, so there's going to be a decrease in the quality of the average student. And those things affect the experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hopkins yes, Wash U no. Nothing special about Wash U.

Wash U has lots of $$$ and the administration will spend tons of money to improve its departments and national standing. It's Ivy-equivalent but JHU isn't. The students are hyper-competitive, has no school spirit or whatsoever. Everyone who went to JHU hated the school, but not WashU. It's like the Princeton of the midwest and is situated in a much more pleasant area of STL.

Hopkins seems forever crippled by its old reputation as a place without any fun, which it did deserve in the past, but the school is changing. Substantial amounts have been poured into enhancing the undergraduate experience as well as the nearby Charles Village "college town." It's quite different from 20 years ago. And Homewood is a lovely campus and does abut some gorgeous neighborhoods.

-- poster whose father was a Hopkins professor.