Okay, here goes....Alexandria Schools?

[Anonymous]

DH and I are finally at a point where we might be able to sell the condo we bought in 2006 and move into something bigger--we've had 2 kids since moving here and it's time. We live in Arlington, but it's looking more and more like we will not be able to buy our next home here. Our oldest will start kindergarten in the fall. We're generally laid back types (at least compared to a lot of people around here) and not very concerned about test scores. We are both white but are fine with a school that's "diverse," as they say. Financially and philosophically don't feel like private schools are an option. Anyone with kids in ACPS willing to share what it's like? We are a one-car family so would be looking to live near King St or Braddock Rd metro stops. Thanks for any guidance!

[Anonymous]

We just house hunted there (but ultimately chose Pimmit hills). Looks like a few of the elementary schools are good like Douglas Macarthur, but the real problem is that the middle school and high school are pretty bad. In fact, I believe that TC Williams is the worst in the whole state. Another problem is that ACPS is now busing students from their zoned school to other schools due to overpopulation, particularly at the good schools. So you might want to check the charts online (I forgot where they are) to see if the E.S. in your neighborhood has more students enrolled than the max. This chart I saw even shows how many extra kids (to be bused) there were in each grade. You could also just search DCUMs for discussion about that issue too.

I will probably incite several parents to chime in now about how average and above average students nevertheless are able to excel at the high school, but I am just telling you the facts.

[Anonymous]

The curriculum is weak in the City schools compared to neighboring districts.

That diversity you want to embrace? That translates into the schools spending more time on what amounts to social service issues instead of focusing on education. They are more worried about the fact that Miguel's mommy might not have been able to read the flyer about some freebie they are handing out at school then whether your non ESL white kid can do math.

That diversity also buys you schools where the time and energy is devoted to the kids at the very bottom who can't pass the test. It's a waste really because even with all that time, money and energy, the most gains they will realize is a few percentage points. If they focused on the top 50% of students, they would quickly bring up their scores.

Buy in Fairfax County or Arlington County unless you can afford private.

Do not buy into the belief the schools are getting better. I made that mistake 5 years ago. The schools are just as bad.

We have one of the 4 schools in VA that the state is considering taking over because students have failed to achieve in over 10 years.

[Anonymous]

22:10 - TC Williams is not the worst in the whole state. there are about 300 high schools in the state of VA and TC Williams is somewhere around 114, at least last time I checked. that does put it below all the schools in Arlington, Fairfax and Falls Church, though. So yeah, it's not highly ranked compared to other area schools.

That said, a lot of those rankings (test score based) are due to demographics. and my suspicion is that a motivated college-prep kid would do just fine there. It's no secret that poorer kids and ESL kids don't score as well on standardized tests as rich, white kids.

[Anonymous]

OP, you clearly know that any question of this nature is going to draw out the ACPS fans (myself included) and several ACPS detractors (many of whom don't seem to have, or have had, children in the ACPS schools, at least recently); what you might not see much are responses from parents who are in the generally to highly satisfied range but don't have absolute top views of ACPS nor horrible things to say. This B through A- range is probably a majority of the parents, from what we've directly observed over the course of several years in ACPS, which we really like.

We withdrew DC from a local private school (well-known, but clearly second-tier) to an ACPS school, and within weeks it became clear to us that the ACPS curriculum is at least as advanced and comprehensive as essentially all of the area private schools' curricula. The general level of attention from ACPS admins and faculty has, in our view, been exceptionally high (and relatively consistently so). We went from an East End school to GW middle, which offers an all-honors option, and we've been happy in every material respect.

I suspect that some locals will tell you that the Lyles-Crouch (Old Town), Maury (Rosemont), MacArthur (Seminary Valley), George Mason (Beverly Hills) and Charles Barrett (Parkfairfax) elementary schools are viewed as being materially better than the other ACPS elementaries, and we can't disagree (we were at one for three years and we and our DC positively loved it, in every respect). If you're in the Jefferson-Houston catchment (Parker-Gray and West Old Town), that school is in tough shape -- low level of parent socio-economics and parent commitment to the school, with typically poor testing results -- and you will still have limited school choice. Likewise, in the Mount Vernon (North Del Ray) and Tucker (Cameron Station and Holmes Run) catchments, the schools are non-standard calendar, and you have the right to enroll in a different school if you'd like. If you're organized and timely, this is not a problem (we went through the process and it worked perfectly).

The ACPS system is becoming more popular, and local private school enrollment is somewhat less sought-after than in the past. As a result, a number of ACPS elementaries are at capacity. When you look at places to live, check out both your catchment school AND also ask what the primary overflow school is. Consider visiting the school(s) (all the ACPS schools welcome visitors and conduct tours for prospective parents).

We've had terrific luck with our middle school too, although not too many years ago, we might not have braved it. The sole traditional high school, TC Williams, is gigantic, offers everything, and has a terrific college placement record -- especially for a school that caters to a real economic mix. We know numerous TC families. We know of no severe dissatisfaction -- none. That said, obviously, a higher-performing kid is going to have a much better, easier, more enjoyable time at TC than a kid who is unmotivated and/or in a remedial program.

I'd be hesitant to believe the condemnatory posts that your inquiry might prompt. ACPS is controversial. The system used to be seriously deficient in many respects. Improving the schools has required the Superintendent to break a lot of eggs to make a better omelet, and upset entrenched local interests in the process. A small number of semi-pro agitators seem to spend all their free time trashing the schools. Go look at one or too. It will help you make more than real estate decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you clearly know that any question of this nature is going to draw out the ACPS fans (myself included) and several ACPS detractors (many of whom don't seem to have, or have had, children in the ACPS schools, at least recently); what you might not see much are responses from parents who are in the generally to highly satisfied range but don't have absolute top views of ACPS nor horrible things to say. This B through A- range is probably a majority of the parents, from what we've directly observed over the course of several years in ACPS, which we really like.

We withdrew DC from a local private school (well-known, but clearly second-tier) to an ACPS school, and within weeks it became clear to us that the ACPS curriculum is at least as advanced and comprehensive as essentially all of the area private schools' curricula. The general level of attention from ACPS admins and faculty has, in our view, been exceptionally high (and relatively consistently so). We went from an East End school to GW middle, which offers an all-honors option, and we've been happy in every material respect.

I suspect that some locals will tell you that the Lyles-Crouch (Old Town), Maury (Rosemont), MacArthur (Seminary Valley), George Mason (Beverly Hills) and Charles Barrett (Parkfairfax) elementary schools are viewed as being materially better than the other ACPS elementaries, and we can't disagree (we were at one for three years and we and our DC positively loved it, in every respect). If you're in the Jefferson-Houston catchment (Parker-Gray and West Old Town), that school is in tough shape -- low level of parent socio-economics and parent commitment to the school, with typically poor testing results -- and you will still have limited school choice. Likewise, in the Mount Vernon (North Del Ray) and Tucker (Cameron Station and Holmes Run) catchments, the schools are non-standard calendar, and you have the right to enroll in a different school if you'd like. If you're organized and timely, this is not a problem (we went through the process and it worked perfectly).

The ACPS system is becoming more popular, and local private school enrollment is somewhat less sought-after than in the past. As a result, a number of ACPS elementaries are at capacity. When you look at places to live, check out both your catchment school AND also ask what the primary overflow school is. Consider visiting the school(s) (all the ACPS schools welcome visitors and conduct tours for prospective parents).

We've had terrific luck with our middle school too, although not too many years ago, we might not have braved it. The sole traditional high school, TC Williams, is gigantic, offers everything, and has a terrific college placement record -- especially for a school that caters to a real economic mix. We know numerous TC families. We know of no severe dissatisfaction -- none. That said, obviously, a higher-performing kid is going to have a much better, easier, more enjoyable time at TC than a kid who is unmotivated and/or in a remedial program.

I'd be hesitant to believe the condemnatory posts that your inquiry might prompt. ACPS is controversial. The system used to be seriously deficient in many respects. Improving the schools has required the Superintendent to break a lot of eggs to make a better omelet, and upset entrenched local interests in the process. A small number of semi-pro agitators seem to spend all their free time trashing the schools. Go look at one or too. It will help you make more than real estate decisions.

OP, you'll notice that the ACPS boosters tend to protest too much. The previous post is a good example. It is not even remotely true that "the ACPS system is becoming more popular." In fact, the anxiety people have in the system as they approach the middle schools are palpable. Setting aside the substandard quality of the middle schools and TC, the system and administration itself is a bastion of dysfunctional leadership. The superintendent is actually the weak link, not some hero who is "breaking a lot of eggs to make a better omelet." He has wasted hundreds of thousands of public dollars on cronies who provide worthless consulting, hired a local newspaper reporter to try to spin the schools' messaging, throws whatever policy he can think of out there to see if it will stick without doing due diligence, and actively alienates parents who are concerned about achievement. I went through ACPS for several years. In my experience, those who stand here and insist it's all good are trying to rationalize something -- and they also have nothing to which to compare ACPS to, having never experienced a different system. There are real problems in the system, which is set up as something to endure and survive rather than to learn and thrive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you clearly know that any question of this nature is going to draw out the ACPS fans (myself included) and several ACPS detractors (many of whom don't seem to have, or have had, children in the ACPS schools, at least recently); what you might not see much are responses from parents who are in the generally to highly satisfied range but don't have absolute top views of ACPS nor horrible things to say. This B through A- range is probably a majority of the parents, from what we've directly observed over the course of several years in ACPS, which we really like.

We withdrew DC from a local private school (well-known, but clearly second-tier) to an ACPS school, and within weeks it became clear to us that the ACPS curriculum is at least as advanced and comprehensive as essentially all of the area private schools' curricula. The general level of attention from ACPS admins and faculty has, in our view, been exceptionally high (and relatively consistently so). We went from an East End school to GW middle, which offers an all-honors option, and we've been happy in every material respect.

I suspect that some locals will tell you that the Lyles-Crouch (Old Town), Maury (Rosemont), MacArthur (Seminary Valley), George Mason (Beverly Hills) and Charles Barrett (Parkfairfax) elementary schools are viewed as being materially better than the other ACPS elementaries, and we can't disagree (we were at one for three years and we and our DC positively loved it, in every respect). If you're in the Jefferson-Houston catchment (Parker-Gray and West Old Town), that school is in tough shape -- low level of parent socio-economics and parent commitment to the school, with typically poor testing results -- and you will still have limited school choice. Likewise, in the Mount Vernon (North Del Ray) and Tucker (Cameron Station and Holmes Run) catchments, the schools are non-standard calendar, and you have the right to enroll in a different school if you'd like. If you're organized and timely, this is not a problem (we went through the process and it worked perfectly).

The ACPS system is becoming more popular, and local private school enrollment is somewhat less sought-after than in the past. As a result, a number of ACPS elementaries are at capacity. When you look at places to live, check out both your catchment school AND also ask what the primary overflow school is. Consider visiting the school(s) (all the ACPS schools welcome visitors and conduct tours for prospective parents).

We've had terrific luck with our middle school too, although not too many years ago, we might not have braved it. The sole traditional high school, TC Williams, is gigantic, offers everything, and has a terrific college placement record -- especially for a school that caters to a real economic mix. We know numerous TC families. We know of no severe dissatisfaction -- none. That said, obviously, a higher-performing kid is going to have a much better, easier, more enjoyable time at TC than a kid who is unmotivated and/or in a remedial program.

I'd be hesitant to believe the condemnatory posts that your inquiry might prompt. ACPS is controversial. The system used to be seriously deficient in many respects. Improving the schools has required the Superintendent to break a lot of eggs to make a better omelet, and upset entrenched local interests in the process. A small number of semi-pro agitators seem to spend all their free time trashing the schools. Go look at one or too. It will help you make more than real estate decisions.

You post all the time about this experience. After having my child in ACPS after having them in a private school myself, I would say that your child then has to be at slightly below grade level if he/she found the curriculum advanced. The curriculum in ACPS was a whole grade year behind my child's previous private school.

The curriculum was enough of a problem that the City hired staff to revamp it and that process is still ongoing. So even the City itself didn't think the curriculum was up to par. So that you found it so great, isn't saying much.

[Anonymous]

OP, as earlier poster mentioned, emotion tends to run high on DCUM when ACPS gets mentioned.
In many ways you sound like exactly the type of family who would be happy in ACPS, since you describe yourself as "laid back, not particularly concerned about test scores, and okay with a diverse school."
Any measure that looks at test scores alone will have Alexandria rank lower than other nearby jurisdictions. We have a larger percentage of low-income families, and a larger percentage of children who are learning English as a second language. Your family's subgroup (white, not low-income) has always had and continues to have high pass rates, so your child will be fine. Their teachers will make sure they get material that's appropriate for their academic level, and encourage them to succeed.

You can do a search of previous threads to see other versions of the "pro-con" debate that's already emerging in this thread.

ACPS bashers on this thread seem to always accuse those who stick with ACPS as naive boosters.
I honestly don't think ACPS is perfect. I might spend more time on the this forum highlighting areas that I think need improvement, but the vitriol is so intense I don't feel like it would be a reasonable discussion, like parents griping about Montgomery County or Fairfax County, and would just become a witch hunt. I'd rather have those discussions offline with other ACPS families, who I know are actually familiar with current state of affairs at ACPS and not someone who left in a huff and has an anti-ACPS agenda.

PP insists that "it is not even remotely true" that the ACPS system is becoming more popular. PP is incorrect. More families with school age children in Alexandria are enrolling their children and remaining in ACPS.
Some do leave, and some do leave in middle school. I note a great deal of anxiety in general around middle school, but have yet to have someone give me a concrete example of a recent experience at an ACPS middle school that would raise an alarm bell with me.

I think some of the angst around middle school is because at its core middle school SUCKS. Without a doubt the worst years of my life. And where did I experience the worst years of my life? At Frost in Fairfax County, part of the Woodson pyramid. But WAIT that is supposed to be the BEST in the area?! Yeah, well I still had some lousy teachers and horrible mean girls, which led to many afternoons and evenings crying at home. Do I think that makes Frost a bad school? No, and the occasional dud teacher and/or social anxiety problem a kid experiences at the ACPS middle schools doesn't make them horrible either.
Take a look at the number of students taking Algebra in 8th grade and their SOL pass rates. Not too shabby.

OP, don't take my word for it, or the ACPS bashers. Go check out the neighborhoods, identify some of the specific elementary schools you might be attending, and take a tour of the schools. Go ahead and tour the middle school and TC Williams, too. They are always happy to show you around.
Good luck and best wishes, wherever you end up!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, as earlier poster mentioned, emotion tends to run high on DCUM when ACPS gets mentioned.
In many ways you sound like exactly the type of family who would be happy in ACPS, since you describe yourself as "laid back, not particularly concerned about test scores, and okay with a diverse school."
Any measure that looks at test scores alone will have Alexandria rank lower than other nearby jurisdictions. We have a larger percentage of low-income families, and a larger percentage of children who are learning English as a second language. Your family's subgroup (white, not low-income) has always had and continues to have high pass rates, so your child will be fine. Their teachers will make sure they get material that's appropriate for their academic level, and encourage them to succeed.

You can do a search of previous threads to see other versions of the "pro-con" debate that's already emerging in this thread.

ACPS bashers on this thread seem to always accuse those who stick with ACPS as naive boosters.
I honestly don't think ACPS is perfect. I might spend more time on the this forum highlighting areas that I think need improvement, but the vitriol is so intense I don't feel like it would be a reasonable discussion, like parents griping about Montgomery County or Fairfax County, and would just become a witch hunt. I'd rather have those discussions offline with other ACPS families, who I know are actually familiar with current state of affairs at ACPS and not someone who left in a huff and has an anti-ACPS agenda.

PP insists that "it is not even remotely true" that the ACPS system is becoming more popular. PP is incorrect. More families with school age children in Alexandria are enrolling their children and remaining in ACPS.
Some do leave, and some do leave in middle school. I note a great deal of anxiety in general around middle school, but have yet to have someone give me a concrete example of a recent experience at an ACPS middle school that would raise an alarm bell with me.

I think some of the angst around middle school is because at its core middle school SUCKS. Without a doubt the worst years of my life. And where did I experience the worst years of my life? At Frost in Fairfax County, part of the Woodson pyramid. But WAIT that is supposed to be the BEST in the area?! Yeah, well I still had some lousy teachers and horrible mean girls, which led to many afternoons and evenings crying at home. Do I think that makes Frost a bad school? No, and the occasional dud teacher and/or social anxiety problem a kid experiences at the ACPS middle schools doesn't make them horrible either.
Take a look at the number of students taking Algebra in 8th grade and their SOL pass rates. Not too shabby.

OP, don't take my word for it, or the ACPS bashers. Go check out the neighborhoods, identify some of the specific elementary schools you might be attending, and take a tour of the schools. Go ahead and tour the middle school and TC Williams, too. They are always happy to show you around.
Good luck and best wishes, wherever you end up!

The term "popular" implies people are making a deliberate choice. The increased enrollment is common across the NoVA areas. It does not, in any way, indicate that people are more actively "choosing" ACPS -- many simply have little choice. It's not like everyone is happy about it, which is what you seem to imply. I think it's more the case that many people reluctantly go the ACPS route, find out it's not necessarily as terrible as they were told it would be. But, that also doesn't mean that the system is either good or that the immediately surrounding areas aren't leaps and bounds better. Because just as you said previously that you think people who bash ACPS have never had kids in the system (which I think is untrue), it is also true that many boosters haven't experienced anything else. Those of us who have been in other systems know that ACPS chronically underperforms.

BTW, your suggestion that ACPS is some "shangri-la" compared to the "mean girl" schools elsewhere is laughable. Yes, there's a lot more diversity in ACPS, but it's no Bennetton ad.

[Anonymous]

Okay, like every thread on DCUM where someone asks for advice, everyone is just going to argue for whatever they decided. (In the real estate forum, someone just suggested that the OP, who wants to live in DC proper, commute from Fredericksburg or Frederick.)

Here's my experience: We bought a starter townhouse in Del Ray (Mt Vernon Community School) before we had kids, without even taking the school thing into consideration. We were on a 5-year plan, and we were planning to leave the area altogether after that. Over the years, I've spoken with a lot of parents with kids in the ACPS system (as well as a few teachers) about their experiences, and I've been surprised by the positivity of the response (probably because I spend so much time on DCUM). I've also been surprised to learn that some of my mom friends in Fairfax County are not happy with their schools. I think some of this might have to do with the personality of the inhabitants though. If you're a school snob, you're not going to pick Alexandria City. To some degree, I think the more uptight, hyper-competitive people all flee for Arlington or Fairfax County before their kids even start school.

But, long story short, now that we're in a position to leave, we've decided to stay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay, like every thread on DCUM where someone asks for advice, everyone is just going to argue for whatever they decided. (In the real estate forum, someone just suggested that the OP, who wants to live in DC proper, commute from Fredericksburg or Frederick.)

Here's my experience: We bought a starter townhouse in Del Ray (Mt Vernon Community School) before we had kids, without even taking the school thing into consideration. We were on a 5-year plan, and we were planning to leave the area altogether after that. Over the years, I've spoken with a lot of parents with kids in the ACPS system (as well as a few teachers) about their experiences, and I've been surprised by the positivity of the response (probably because I spend so much time on DCUM). I've also been surprised to learn that some of my mom friends in Fairfax County are not happy with their schools. I think some of this might have to do with the personality of the inhabitants though. If you're a school snob, you're not going to pick Alexandria City. To some degree, I think the more uptight, hyper-competitive people all flee for Arlington or Fairfax County before their kids even start school.

But, long story short, now that we're in a position to leave, we've decided to stay.

How close are you to middle school? Are you committing to GW at this point? Because that's where the rubber hits the road in ACPS.

[Anonymous]

We live in Rosemont, and I would say the 10:31 poster is dead on. We have had a great experience, though only at Maury so far. But we've talked a lot to our area friends who are in ACPS and privates, and the PPs post rings true. The rough spot for ES is J-H, and GW is a mixed bag. But I would check out the neighborhoods, and maybe post the same question on the del ray or rosemont neighborhood listserves to talk to some real people.

[Anonymous]

I'm totally liberal and the opposite of a tiger mom. So much that we would consider N or S arlington schools whereas many would only the former. We are SO uncomfortable with the middle school in Alex we sold our lovely home to move to Arlington. Do your research and you will find that ACPS is amazing in terms of their standards. Perfect? No. Some schools may be better suited to certain personalities and boundaries and overcrowding are a nightmare. BUT their fundamental approach and standard to education is for me best in NOVA. You get a few great schools in falls church and fairfax - in arlington I dare say almost every school is at a certain standard. And I do not mean test scores or diversity. I mean teachers and the structure where county wide options exist, immersion and Montessori options exist. 1/2 of Arlington taxes go immediately to school budget no questions. The difference between storytime at arlington v alexandria is such that as Alex residences we only do arlington story times now. I had no idea the disparity in quality was even in the library setting. I have done extensive research, toured schools, talked to moms and etc - elementary for sure no question that mason, mcarthur, lyles crouch are great but after that you better be able to consider private. Maybe you will be ok or maybe not depending on your kid but in arlington their approach is amazing. If anything you will find too many tiger moms in n arlington but I can't tell you how much more comfortable I am going to N arlington even though we have no idea what elementary zone we end up - everything's good there. While I am more lenient with high school in Alex I believe that middle school is a really super important time before kids hit their stride in high school - so while we could have bit the bullet with staying in Alex you could not pay me to go to their middle schools. They suck and anyone that tells you differently has not seen better. I say that knowing it'll piss people off but I have done research and its pretty much true. Look at a arlington but try to stay in arlington. I love Alex and prefer it to arl geographically but we could not live down staying. And I reiterate that I'm not that mom who is psychologically anal about test scores and lining a zillion activities for my kids while in prek arlington has thoroughly impressed me obviously

[Anonymous]

Wow, 12:48. Hope your kids learn how to punctuate in Arlington.

[Anonymous]

We are white and high HHI and are going to send our kids to one of the "good" ACPS elementaries. May switch to private after that but we'll see. I want them to have a more real world experience than the bubble world of private school.