I don't get it- very few CES kids get into magnet school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think the universal testing has affected the process more than the peer cohorts.

Except it didn't.

MCPS determined a % (95%) that it deemed highly capable and the universal testing revealed extremely large % of white students who met that criteria beyond the % that had applied in the past. If MCPS had selected from the larger group and offered seats to students who performed the highest out of the highly capable group they would have ended up with a magnet in a DCC school filled with white and asian kids primarily from the W schools.

The goal was to get the magnet demographic to more closely reflect the overall demographics of the student population. The problem is that there is a significant gap in academic performance between the demographics. Any attempt to make the magnets look like the overall population needs to stop looking at merit or lower the standard and make up other criteria which is what they did. This is an interesting problem. How do you increase participation in the magnets by URM students when you legally can't appear to be using racial assignments even though this your intent?

There were many better options that MCPS could have pursued:

1. Be honest about what you are doing. Implement universal testing and make the numbers public. Get rid of the special TP spots and increase overall # of spots to open up more seats. Provide extra points for students who are FARMS and minorities. This is legal and has been done in other school systems.

2. Expand the GT program to include the level 1 magnets for the very top performing students regardless of race or geographic location and position these in schools where high performing students are clustered. For all other schools provide a level 2 GT track that serves the 95%-97% students.

3. Create a URM GT track in ES that includes intensive summer and after school options to get more URM students up to the level of the white and asian kids in the west.

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

Is anybody else noticing a distinct message of "If I can't have it, nobody ought have it" here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

Is anybody else noticing a distinct message of "If I can't have it, nobody ought have it" here?

Totally served hot with an extra helping of racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

Is anybody else noticing a distinct message of "If I can't have it, nobody ought have it" here?

Totally served hot with an extra helping of racism.

I was with PP until the last paragraph. Not seeing data that shows a drop in top highly able kids accepted, just a shift to a different set of top highly able kids. But a truly enriched home school program in all the middle schools seems like a win win for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

Is anybody else noticing a distinct message of "If I can't have it, nobody ought have it" here?

Totally served hot with an extra helping of racism.

I was with PP until the last paragraph. Not seeing data that shows a drop in top highly able kids accepted, just a shift to a different set of top highly able kids. But a truly enriched home school program in all the middle schools seems like a win win for everyone.

It is meaningless to speak about which children are most "highly-able" without acknowledging the impact of resources and family support. There will always be a tiny number of true geniuses who will shine regardless of how much, or little, support they receive (school, family, community, etc.), but every other "smart" kid people point to are a product on their upbringing, our DC included. If you instead want to talk about kids who may be most prepared to take advantage of a magnet program, that's different. Then it's an arms race (see NYC up to now). As much as it might be against our DC's interests, I have no an issue with the county trying to identify kids who have the ability, interest and potential to benefit from a magnet program, but who may not have had the type of support to allow them to fully demonstrate their abilities. Those kids exist, and to say it's just too bad they had the wrong parents isn't what a public school system should be about. You can fault how MoCo is trying to do this. but I don't fault it for trying.

I do fault MoCo for needing to do this in the first place. I don't understand why there aren't challenging classes for top students at home MS' and HS'. And by challenging, I mean there is a real risk of getting a C or D if you can't (or are not willing to) keep up. Have some slightly less challenging classes for kids who need more challenge, and then regular classes. Put in real rigor, and you avoid having to select where kids should slot in. They will self-select. There is no HS (and I doubt any MS) that is too small to not have enough bright and ambitious kids to fill these classes at a level appropriate to them. Not everyone needs to get an A. Life isn't like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

Is anybody else noticing a distinct message of "If I can't have it, nobody ought have it" here?

Totally served hot with an extra helping of racism.

I was with PP until the last paragraph. Not seeing data that shows a drop in top highly able kids accepted, just a shift to a different set of top highly able kids. But a truly enriched home school program in all the middle schools seems like a win win for everyone.

MCPS does not disclose the data. In the past, they always disclosed the median scores of those accepted. As to highly able, there is a spectrum within 99%. 99.9% is different from 99.0%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS does not disclose the data. In the past, they always disclosed the median scores of those accepted. As to highly able, there is a spectrum within 99%. 99.9% is different from 99.0%.

Not on the CogAT, it's not.

[Anonymous]

MCPS is just cannabilizing itself, again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS is just cannabilizing itself, again.

Let’s get beyond the surrealistic name calling and explain some specific concerns. The “MCPS sucks” posters are making no attempt to deal seriously with the fact that MCPS’s size and demographics have changed massively in the past generation. Saying they’re all idiots or saying you wish everything could just go back to the glory days of 1989 is not helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

Is anybody else noticing a distinct message of "If I can't have it, nobody ought have it" here?

Totally served hot with an extra helping of racism.

I was with PP until the last paragraph. Not seeing data that shows a drop in top highly able kids accepted, just a shift to a different set of top highly able kids. But a truly enriched home school program in all the middle schools seems like a win win for everyone.

It is meaningless to speak about which children are most "highly-able" without acknowledging the impact of resources and family support. There will always be a tiny number of true geniuses who will shine regardless of how much, or little, support they receive (school, family, community, etc.), but every other "smart" kid people point to are a product on their upbringing, our DC included. If you instead want to talk about kids who may be most prepared to take advantage of a magnet program, that's different. Then it's an arms race (see NYC up to now). As much as it might be against our DC's interests, I have no an issue with the county trying to identify kids who have the ability, interest and potential to benefit from a magnet program, but who may not have had the type of support to allow them to fully demonstrate their abilities. Those kids exist, and to say it's just too bad they had the wrong parents isn't what a public school system should be about. You can fault how MoCo is trying to do this. but I don't fault it for trying.

I do fault MoCo for needing to do this in the first place. I don't understand why there aren't challenging classes for top students at home MS' and HS'. And by challenging, I mean there is a real risk of getting a C or D if you can't (or are not willing to) keep up. Have some slightly less challenging classes for kids who need more challenge, and then regular classes. Put in real rigor, and you avoid having to select where kids should slot in. They will self-select. There is no HS (and I doubt any MS) that is too small to not have enough bright and ambitious kids to fill these classes at a level appropriate to them. Not everyone needs to get an A. Life isn't like that.

Very thoughtful post. If a child doesn't have a parent willing/able to even fill out the application, that child will likely not be prepared to take advantage of a traditional magnet program. If MCPS wants to to create another program with an extended day with specialized staff to provide executive functioning help, homework tutoring and a healthy dinner then that's something that should be considered. Even this might not help if the kid then goes home and plays video games until 1:00am every night. Also, I don't know where the money would come from but it shouldn't be take away from the traditional magnet program.

What you suggest in your second paragraph is a good idea but would probably be considered tracking which has been deemed racist by the PC Police.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm really bothered by the propaganda that deflects away from the fact that they changed the criteria not to get the most qualified students but to get the demographic profile of the students that they wanted. This is just wrong. Its been stated again and again that no one objects to universal testing, people object moving admission away from merit based and toward racial profiling. Yet again and again the MCPS PR booster will try to float in that the only change was universal testing. This simply isn't true and you should stop lying.

I think the universal testing has affected the process more than the peer cohorts. Their kid not being invited because she has a cohort Is just easier for parents to swallow than “they scored high, but not high enough”, which is what a lot of posted cogat results are showing. 99 percentile nationally but only 86th percentile MCPS? Universal testing is turning up more bright students.

It definitely has. There's no doubt about it, but easier to scapegoat minorities than accept any responsibility for one's own failings.

[Anonymous]

My magnet kid is responsible for own homework. I do not tutor or provide executive functioning help. My kid does not always get straight A’s, but they are my kid’s grades, not mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My magnet kid is responsible for own homework. I do not tutor or provide executive functioning help. My kid does not always get straight A’s, but they are my kid’s grades, not mine.

Then it sounds like your kid is prepared to take advantage of a traditional magnet program (in spite of the fact that you aren't involved in his/her academic life)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I like your suggestions. My youngest is in 8th, so was in the old system. I think that given the sheer numbers of highly able students identified through the universal screening process, there is clearly a huge need for enrichment in the county. Get rid of the regional middle school magnets (TPMS, Eastern, Clemente). Focus all enrichment efforts at the home school level. All schools need to offer true honors and gifted classes. If a highly-able child does not have a large enough cohort at their MS, they get a COSA to any MS that does have a cohort (mcps provides transportation).

I think that the switch to universal screening demonstrates that the vast majority of parents in MCPS want their kids at local schools. People knew their kids were highly-able in the old selection system, but didn't apply because the magnets were too far, kids preferred to stay close to friends, kids/parents weren't interested in the curriculum-- a whole host of reasons.

It would have been interesting in the pilot year of universal screening to continue to use the same entrance tests, so they could compare scores between the self-nominated cohorts of previous years and the new universal cohort. Once they announced that they were going to switch to the Cogat to find "highly-able" students, I knew that the magnet program was shifting away from truly serving the top "high-able" cohort of students. Under the new testing system, white people seem to be benefiting the most. Interesting results.

Is anybody else noticing a distinct message of "If I can't have it, nobody ought have it" here?

Totally served hot with an extra helping of racism.

I was with PP until the last paragraph. Not seeing data that shows a drop in top highly able kids accepted, just a shift to a different set of top highly able kids. But a truly enriched home school program in all the middle schools seems like a win win for everyone.

It is meaningless to speak about which children are most "highly-able" without acknowledging the impact of resources and family support. There will always be a tiny number of true geniuses who will shine regardless of how much, or little, support they receive (school, family, community, etc.), but every other "smart" kid people point to are a product on their upbringing, our DC included. If you instead want to talk about kids who may be most prepared to take advantage of a magnet program, that's different. Then it's an arms race (see NYC up to now). As much as it might be against our DC's interests, I have no an issue with the county trying to identify kids who have the ability, interest and potential to benefit from a magnet program, but who may not have had the type of support to allow them to fully demonstrate their abilities. Those kids exist, and to say it's just too bad they had the wrong parents isn't what a public school system should be about. You can fault how MoCo is trying to do this. but I don't fault it for trying.

I do fault MoCo for needing to do this in the first place. I don't understand why there aren't challenging classes for top students at home MS' and HS'. And by challenging, I mean there is a real risk of getting a C or D if you can't (or are not willing to) keep up. Have some slightly less challenging classes for kids who need more challenge, and then regular classes. Put in real rigor, and you avoid having to select where kids should slot in. They will self-select. There is no HS (and I doubt any MS) that is too small to not have enough bright and ambitious kids to fill these classes at a level appropriate to them. Not everyone needs to get an A. Life isn't like that.

Very thoughtful post. If a child doesn't have a parent willing/able to even fill out the application, that child will likely not be prepared to take advantage of a traditional magnet program. If MCPS wants to to create another program with an extended day with specialized staff to provide executive functioning help, homework tutoring and a healthy dinner then that's something that should be considered. Even this might not help if the kid then goes home and plays video games until 1:00am every night. Also, I don't know where the money would come from but it shouldn't be take away from the traditional magnet program.

What you suggest in your second paragraph is a good idea but would probably be considered tracking which has been deemed racist by the PC Police.

I don't necessarily disagree with the those who criticize tracking, even though I benefited from it decades ago in MoCo public schools. If you track every subject, think of what that says to the kids who are stuck in the regular classes, particularly if all the good teachers are teaching GT, AP and Honors classes. But here's where I veer from many others: I think bright and ambitious kids learn best when they are with other kids who are bright and ambitious, all pushing each other. I understand that a mixed class may be best overall for all the students collectively, but I refuse to believe it is best for the top students. You are just coasting, and I say that from personal experience. So I'm all in favor of really rigorous and challenging classes at the home schools. If people want to call that tracking, so be it.

[Anonymous]

MCPS could start giving IQ tests in early elementary schools, especially schools with high poverty. Kids with high IQs would be pulled out for an intensive track that would prepare them to be competitive for MS and HS magnets. It also would be putting those resources for kids that have the potential.

No ones talks about IQ but it is part of the equation along with hard work and family dedication to academics. IQ doesn't track along SES or racial lines. IQ has a genetic component so kids with parents with high IQs are more likely to have kids with high IQs. Parents with high IQs are less likely to be high school drop outs or working manual jobs. There would end up being correlation (not causation) with fewer kids in high poverty areas being gifted with a high IQ. However by pulling out the high poverty kids who do have a high IQ and giving them extra academic support you are preventing them from failing to succeed due to family or institutionalized racism or poverty factors which is a big win.