How to improve AAP and General Ed Together

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to hear that parent meetings are integrated, but from the outside, it sure doesn't sound like it, and not just in DCUM.

From the outside? Where besides DCUM? This why people throw around the word "crazies" - bc the AAP haters exaggerate and twist everything to sound so outrageous. So outrageous that 'outsiders' believe that there are separate parent meetings This is so far from reality for so much of FCPS.

Hey, I'm not an AAP hater, so stop getting so rankled. My friends with kids at our center talk as if they are in two different worlds. Atleast their kids are getting served appropriately. Things are out of kilter at our Title I. There are a lot of different kinds of needs that need to be served. Things fall through the cracks at every school. If you don't see them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

What can I say? I'm glad you find FCPS with out any need for improvement? Is your response to OP really that there's nothing to be done, because there's no problem except on DCUM? I hope the truth is that you see that there is room for improvement. I suspect you believe the scale of the problem is small and not worth discussing.

+100
Small, and of course, not affecting her children so not worthy of discussion and reform.

Maybe some people are just wise to the fact that arguing on the internet won't accomplish anything.

I'm hoping that OP or someone here will take this and use it for good IRL. I agree that we're talking in a vacuum. Maybe someone with a problem will see something here and find a solution they can implement at their own school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to hear that parent meetings are integrated, but from the outside, it sure doesn't sound like it, and not just in DCUM.

From the outside? Where besides DCUM? This why people throw around the word "crazies" - bc the AAP haters exaggerate and twist everything to sound so outrageous. So outrageous that 'outsiders' believe that there are separate parent meetings This is so far from reality for so much of FCPS.

Hey, I'm not an AAP hater, so stop getting so rankled. My friends with kids at our center talk as if they are in two different worlds. Atleast their kids are getting served appropriately. Things are out of kilter at our Title I. There are a lot of different kinds of needs that need to be served. Things fall through the cracks at every school. If you don't see them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

What can I say? I'm glad you find FCPS with out any need for improvement? Is your response to OP really that there's nothing to be done, because there's no problem except on DCUM? I hope the truth is that you see that there is room for improvement. I suspect you believe the scale of the problem is small and not worth discussing.

Sigh. I didn't say you were a hater - you are the 'outsider' that based on what you hear from the 'haters' believes that things are THAT segregated. They are not.

I have a couple of kids in AAP and things are not always rosy and perfect for them just because they are in AAP. Of course there is room for improvement. Of course things fall through the cracks - at every level. My issue is that I don't see any reasonable solutions that appease the haters - except to entirely eliminate AAP. I think AAP serves a need, like many other differentiated programs that FCPS offers. I don't have a problem discussing solutions, but it seems (after pages of pages of discussion) that nothing will satisfy APP haters until we all agree that all or most kids in this huge county can all handle the same curriculum. I don't think we'll ever get there.

I think the focus should be on improving Gen Ed and formalizing, standardizing levels 2 & 3 - because, really, it supposed to be about meeting kids where they are - but that is met with "as long as your precious level 4 isn't touched" I think FCPS already reaches as many students as it can identify for Level 4 - and if you as a parent don't agree, you can appeal. There isn't an access issue.

I agree, and we could be friends. I'm not advocating that AAP be dismantled, but I'm arguing that the other levels be addressed. Also I wouldn't be completely dismissive of my friends talk. There is no animosity between them over AAP (they have been friends for a couple decades), but they' e warned me of an 'us' and 'them' dynamic at their school that involves SOME parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Integrating lunch and recess was just one idea. From looking at the comments, there doesn't seem to be any immediate reason not to integrate them. It's been done at schools with 1000 students showing that it can be done likely at any school, and most people think it would help facilitate friendships between AAP and general ed students.

So now, lets move onto idea #2. How to better standardize level 2 and level 3 instruction in FCPS. FCAG and the Advanced Academics Advisory Committee have some research on this which is worth reading before making suggestions.

http://www2.fcps.edu/is/aap/aapac.shtml
http://www.fcag.org/testimony.shtml
http://www.fcag.org/fcag.data.shtml
http://www.fcag.org/newsletters.shtml
http://www.fcag.org/nonfcagreports.shtml

OP is an FCAG crony who has no interest in improving Gen Ed. Just looking for ways to placate Gen Ed parents and the county and the taxpayers who are catching on to the AAP BS.

OP here. No I haven't read all of it, but plan to. I have some ideas but I want to read through previous suggestions before making any further ones. I am not part of FCAG or any other gifted group. They've been studying gifted children for some time though, so I think they may have some decent studies to build from. You'd be surprised what FCPS brings up as school board topics or what goes on in admin based on suggestions made here. Not always, but it happens sometimes.

[Anonymous]

OP again. I have a question about advanced math. If your school doesn't have advanced math, do you know why this is and have you made any inquiries with FCPS on why it can't be implemented at your school? Do you have any suggestions for how to implement change at your school? Please distinguish whether the issues with advanced math are K-2, 3-6, 7-8, or all grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again. I have a question about advanced math. If your school doesn't have advanced math, do you know why this is and have you made any inquiries with FCPS on why it can't be implemented at your school? Do you have any suggestions for how to implement change at your school? Please distinguish whether the issues with advanced math are K-2, 3-6, 7-8, or all grades.

Lots of what you want to know might be better addressed in the general VA schools forum. I think many readers of this forum deal with Level IV AAP and so may not be the best source of information about Levels 2-3 or improving Gen Ed in general.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. I have a question about advanced math. If your school doesn't have advanced math, do you know why this is and have you made any inquiries with FCPS on why it can't be implemented at your school? Do you have any suggestions for how to implement change at your school? Please distinguish whether the issues with advanced math are K-2, 3-6, 7-8, or all grades.

Lots of what you want to know might be better addressed in the general VA schools forum. I think many readers of this forum deal with Level IV AAP and so may not be the best source of information about Levels 2-3 or improving Gen Ed in general.

Good point.

OPs questions are really about gen ed.

[Anonymous]

It's about both, so doesn't matter to me which forum it's placed in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again. I have a question about advanced math. If your school doesn't have advanced math, do you know why this is and have you made any inquiries with FCPS on why it can't be implemented at your school? Do you have any suggestions for how to implement change at your school? Please distinguish whether the issues with advanced math are K-2, 3-6, 7-8, or all grades.

NP here -- perhaps it would make sense to ask the School Board liaison to AAPAC about math acceleration for students, as outlined in the staff response to the 2013-2014 report by AAPAC.

http://www2.fcps.edu/schlbd/docs/advisoryreports/staff%20responses/2014/AAPACStaffResponse2014.pdf

AAPAC School Board liaison:

Thomas Wilson
[e-mail]

http://www2.fcps.edu/schlbd/committees/aapac.shtml

[Anonymous]

Thanks. It would be a good idea although Mr. Wilson is pretty new to the school board. I saw that recommendation to tell parents about the advanced math sequencing, but it doesn't talk about doing any monitoring of existing problems with offering advanced math. Mr. Wilson likely would be the school board member to request this study.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's about both, so doesn't matter to me which forum it's placed in.

Are you OP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's about both, so doesn't matter to me which forum it's placed in.

Are you OP?

Yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, let's add an item to get parents out of their bubbles and intermingle more. My kids are not at a base or center, but I suspect that there may not be many parent meetings or events that are integrated. There are people on both sides with their heads in the sand.

Every fcps elememtary and middle school is either a base or a center.

So your kids do not attend fcps?

Then you are not aware of how this program works, and also not aware that this anti aap angst and fixation represents a very small part of the county and not the schools or provram as a whole.

Most places just do not fixate on AAP the way the dcum crowd does.

OMG, you must be joking. How would you know anything about AAP "angst" if your kids are in the program? It's those of us whose kids are NOT in the program who are pointing out what the reality actually is. And it is absolutely not limited to a "very small part of the county" or just DCUM.

I have three kids.

One who went through the center.

One who is an average bright kid with some struggles.

One who did not qualify for AAP level IV in 2nd, retested in an upper grade and qualified Level IV, and decided to stay at the base school with friends and receive level 3 pull outs. She will do the middle school LLIV program next year.

I look at it from the parent perspective of all three types of students represented here. I think AAP as currently structured is a very good program that does its best to provide enrichment and challenges for as many students as possible. I think the screening process, with minor exceptions, works exceptionally well. I think the teachers in both AAP and gen ed are strong, motivated, dedicated professionals wh work very hard to challenge all of their students and are not trying to either shortchange/call it in for the gen ed kids or run away from "those terrible" AAP kids.

I think there are zoning issues that can be fixed in those crazy for TJ areas and I think in all but the lowest performing pyramids every middle school should have an AAP level IV program, with middle school centers limited to poorly performing areas. I think the opposite should occur with elementary schools: mostly centers except for the TJ crazy areas. Those limited zones should have AAP level IV at every elementary.

As a parent of two kids not currently in AAP, I think that a lot of you are so ego damaged about your kids not being accepted into AAP that you are blind to the facts and quite frankly, having a long, drawn out, public virtual temper tantrum.

Most of the elementary schools in fcps are exceptional, as are most of the teachers, gen ed or AAP (well, except for the one stealing beer with her boyfriend student)

My youngest who is an averagely bright student by fcps has always struggled a bit at school. This year, most of his close friend group ended up at the center, which mad him a little sad.

Guess what? He is having the best school year ever. He is confident, understanding things, and not struggling or cyring. I asked him why he thinks this year is going so well for him.

His answer? "I don't know why but this year I feel like I am one of the smart kids. Last year all my friends were reading bigger bookds that I couldn't understand and always got their work done before me. I thought I was a dummie. But this year I am smarter."

My kid's ability did not change. His cohort did. And having those kids who work quickly and/or grade levels ahead move to the center was the best thing for my kid, and I suspect many others.

Before my youngest went through this transition I was an advocate for AAP because of the benefits for kids like my oldest. Now seeing the confidence in my youngest from having those other kids move off to the center, I am an even stronger advocate for AAP oevel IV because of the benefits for kids like my youngest who is now starting to build confidence in his abilities as a student.

I have no doubts that with this confidence along with the time to work at his pace and the chance to sometimes be a leader in the classroom will help to give him the skills that he needs to be successful in school and perhaps even catch up to many of his friends who went to center by the time he reaches middle or high school.

That "catching up" or even passing happens often. THAT shows that the way AAP is structured does indeed work. Meeting kids where they are at NOW and letting them work at a pace that works for them, so they can build a strong foundation to be ready for challenges in high school. Different paths. Different journeys. More or less the same destination.

Yes, yes, yes and yes, especially to the bolded. But you are only one family, so you will be dismissed as an anecdotal story by the hysterical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, let's add an item to get parents out of their bubbles and intermingle more. My kids are not at a base or center, but I suspect that there may not be many parent meetings or events that are integrated. There are people on both sides with their heads in the sand.

Every fcps elememtary and middle school is either a base or a center.

So your kids do not attend fcps?

Then you are not aware of how this program works, and also not aware that this anti aap angst and fixation represents a very small part of the county and not the schools or provram as a whole.

Most places just do not fixate on AAP the way the dcum crowd does.

OMG, you must be joking. How would you know anything about AAP "angst" if your kids are in the program? It's those of us whose kids are NOT in the program who are pointing out what the reality actually is. And it is absolutely not limited to a "very small part of the county" or just DCUM.

I have three kids.

One who went through the center.

One who is an average bright kid with some struggles.

One who did not qualify for AAP level IV in 2nd, retested in an upper grade and qualified Level IV, and decided to stay at the base school with friends and receive level 3 pull outs. She will do the middle school LLIV program next year.

I look at it from the parent perspective of all three types of students represented here. I think AAP as currently structured is a very good program that does its best to provide enrichment and challenges for as many students as possible. I think the screening process, with minor exceptions, works exceptionally well. I think the teachers in both AAP and gen ed are strong, motivated, dedicated professionals wh work very hard to challenge all of their students and are not trying to either shortchange/call it in for the gen ed kids or run away from "those terrible" AAP kids.

I think there are zoning issues that can be fixed in those crazy for TJ areas and I think in all but the lowest performing pyramids every middle school should have an AAP level IV program, with middle school centers limited to poorly performing areas. I think the opposite should occur with elementary schools: mostly centers except for the TJ crazy areas. Those limited zones should have AAP level IV at every elementary.

As a parent of two kids not currently in AAP, I think that a lot of you are so ego damaged about your kids not being accepted into AAP that you are blind to the facts and quite frankly, having a long, drawn out, public virtual temper tantrum.

Most of the elementary schools in fcps are exceptional, as are most of the teachers, gen ed or AAP (well, except for the one stealing beer with her boyfriend student)

My youngest who is an averagely bright student by fcps has always struggled a bit at school. This year, most of his close friend group ended up at the center, which mad him a little sad.

Guess what? He is having the best school year ever. He is confident, understanding things, and not struggling or cyring. I asked him why he thinks this year is going so well for him.

His answer? "I don't know why but this year I feel like I am one of the smart kids. Last year all my friends were reading bigger bookds that I couldn't understand and always got their work done before me. I thought I was a dummie. But this year I am smarter."

My kid's ability did not change. His cohort did. And having those kids who work quickly and/or grade levels ahead move to the center was the best thing for my kid, and I suspect many others.

Before my youngest went through this transition I was an advocate for AAP because of the benefits for kids like my oldest. Now seeing the confidence in my youngest from having those other kids move off to the center, I am an even stronger advocate for AAP oevel IV because of the benefits for kids like my youngest who is now starting to build confidence in his abilities as a student.

I have no doubts that with this confidence along with the time to work at his pace and the chance to sometimes be a leader in the classroom will help to give him the skills that he needs to be successful in school and perhaps even catch up to many of his friends who went to center by the time he reaches middle or high school.

That "catching up" or even passing happens often. THAT shows that the way AAP is structured does indeed work. Meeting kids where they are at NOW and letting them work at a pace that works for them, so they can build a strong foundation to be ready for challenges in high school. Different paths. Different journeys. More or less the same destination.

Yes, yes, yes and yes, especially to the bolded. But you are only one family, so you will be dismissed as an anecdotal story by the hysterical.

The bolded part is not a suggestion unless PP's request with those words is to keep things the way they are. But there are suggestions from PP above this bolded part showing that some change would be good. Look, we all have a child who either benefits or doesn't benefit from the current system. But outside of our own experience, many of us have seen someone else have a different experience. By now everyone's heard of all the pros and cons of the current system. I'm not sure why they keep getting rehashed. Do you think we haven't heard about the general ed kid who now shines since the AAP kids have left and will go on to do great things in middle and high school? It's all been listed before. Every single scenario I think has been documented here before. The whole reason for having a gifted committee is to make gifted education work for all and to make it work within the entire FCPS system. There are pockets within FCPS where it doesn't work as well, and this is just an opportunity to figure out how to make those pockets better without scrapping the entire program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FCAG has been posting about social issues in centers for years too. Here's an excerpt from 2006.

Develop a framework for constructive, two-way communication to aid schools in promoting a positive climate in GT center schools. The framework would provide a menu of options to allow GT center schools to customize their own program to meet the individual needs of the school. The framework should also address barriers that might prevent positive communication, suggest possible solutions to overcome the challenges, and include models of partnerships that may be useful.
Schools that host GT centers often face challenges in managing the expectations and communications between parents, teachers, administrators and students in a respectful, mutually cooperative manner. Although all schools must manage issues of climate, their complexity can be heightened in schools with GT centers. The administrators at GT center schools must address the often distinct needs of GT center and general education teachers and students as well as promote respectful interactions between center and non-center students.
Respect in GT center schools needs to be intentionally built with committed leadership that seeks to improve communication between all parties. Schools should integrate GT students and foster positive language choices and opportunities for interaction between students without teasing or bullying. Schools can also integrate center populations through team building among teachers and increased awareness of the benefits of this team building among parents.
It is suggested that a framework be formulated by consulting with a panel of principals, parents, and teachers from GT center schools that have successfully promoted integrated communities and positive climates. Based on these discussions, a framework of recommendations for creating and fostering a positive school climate would be developed to help manage these diverse expectations. This may include improved communication, affirmation of advanced academic achievement, stronger peer relationships between GT center and non GT center students, and others. Parent Teacher Associations may also serve as a bridge for better communication.

Ha - I had to laugh at this line: "Schools should integrate GT students and foster positive language choices and opportunities for interaction between students without teasing or bullying." Nowadays, it's not the AAP kids who have to be "integrated" into the school - it's the Gen Ed kids. AAP kids are the majority in many centers, for crying out loud.

This is true for our neighborhood school. It's a center and 3rd, 5th, & 6th grades each have 2 GE classes and 3 AAP classes (4th is 3 & 3). AAP is not the minority, GE is.

Would you be happy if it were even? Or if Gen Ed was 3 classes and AAP were 2? Would that solve everything?

No, of course not. I would rather have the option to send my GE child to a non-center school and avoid the issue entirely. Surely there's a spot left vacant somewhere due to someone else sending their AAP child to our school. Wouldn't it even out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FCAG has been posting about social issues in centers for years too. Here's an excerpt from 2006.

Develop a framework for constructive, two-way communication to aid schools in promoting a positive climate in GT center schools. The framework would provide a menu of options to allow GT center schools to customize their own program to meet the individual needs of the school. The framework should also address barriers that might prevent positive communication, suggest possible solutions to overcome the challenges, and include models of partnerships that may be useful.
Schools that host GT centers often face challenges in managing the expectations and communications between parents, teachers, administrators and students in a respectful, mutually cooperative manner. Although all schools must manage issues of climate, their complexity can be heightened in schools with GT centers. The administrators at GT center schools must address the often distinct needs of GT center and general education teachers and students as well as promote respectful interactions between center and non-center students.
Respect in GT center schools needs to be intentionally built with committed leadership that seeks to improve communication between all parties. Schools should integrate GT students and foster positive language choices and opportunities for interaction between students without teasing or bullying. Schools can also integrate center populations through team building among teachers and increased awareness of the benefits of this team building among parents.
It is suggested that a framework be formulated by consulting with a panel of principals, parents, and teachers from GT center schools that have successfully promoted integrated communities and positive climates. Based on these discussions, a framework of recommendations for creating and fostering a positive school climate would be developed to help manage these diverse expectations. This may include improved communication, affirmation of advanced academic achievement, stronger peer relationships between GT center and non GT center students, and others. Parent Teacher Associations may also serve as a bridge for better communication.

Ha - I had to laugh at this line: "Schools should integrate GT students and foster positive language choices and opportunities for interaction between students without teasing or bullying." Nowadays, it's not the AAP kids who have to be "integrated" into the school - it's the Gen Ed kids. AAP kids are the majority in many centers, for crying out loud.

This is true for our neighborhood school. It's a center and 3rd, 5th, & 6th grades each have 2 GE classes and 3 AAP classes (4th is 3 & 3). AAP is not the minority, GE is.

Would you be happy if it were even? Or if Gen Ed was 3 classes and AAP were 2? Would that solve everything?

No, of course not. I would rather have the option to send my GE child to a non-center school and avoid the issue entirely. Surely there's a spot left vacant somewhere due to someone else sending their AAP child to our school. Wouldn't it even out?

Why would that be necessary if there was enough integration between general ed and AAP and your child was able to learn at their pace taking advanced classes as necessary. Why do people want their kids segregated so much on either side?