the Atlantic: The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-elite-college-students-who-cant-read-books/679945/

Students at elite universities such as Columbia are showing up to campus unable to read books. They've only read excerpts their entire school career. Many also struggle to write effectively. In response, many Columbia teachers have to water down the curriculum.

Just because Ivies claim to have applicant selection down, doesn't mean they do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This must be a recent phenomenon, my kids graduated high school before 2020 and always read books as kids and had to do plenty of reading in public schools for honors, AP and IB classes.

I do think it’s recent. It’s definitely something that has come out of Covid when teachers couldn’t enforce reading, kids started cheating and taking short cuts. Schools looked the other way because teachers felt burnt out and overwhelmed. Since then, parents’ own expectations have dropped. If teachers and parents don’t care, kids certainly won’t care.

That said, not all schools have dropped novels! Many still do. My kids attend public school and read 5-7 novels a year, all the typical ones…Macbeth, Julius Cesar, Catcher in the Rye, Moby Dick, Scarlet Letter, Grapes of Wrath, Walden, etc etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do schools not assign summer reading? My kids school gives a long list of books (prose and poetry) from which kids can choose. They have to read a certain number of books and are expected to write briefly about the reading they did over the summer. Both my kids have had some version of this every year at different schools since 4th grade. Seems like the kind of thing a parent could implement if schools aren't.

The point of Summer isn’t for schools to assign more work. Summer is for breaks, exploring other interest and learning other life skills. If parents want to assign school related things that’s their prerogative. Schools on the other hand have an academic calendar that doesn’t include Summer and as such shouldn’t include required assignments. If they want to assign work during Summer then change to a year round academic calendar.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is absolutely laughable to claim that today’s great minds of CS are not voracious readers of fiction.

Who has made that exact claim?

You would have us believe that a higher percentage of CS majors are voracious readers of fiction than humanities or social sciences majors?

DP. No skin in this game, but no one made that claim either.

Then why bring up the claim that “today’s great minds of CS are voracious readers”? Whether true or not, it’s a complete non sequitur.

I’m not sure you are following the thread? The first claim that was made in this sub-thread was that today’s great minds of CS were reading philosophy or logic, not fiction. That is obviously not true (and an impossible statement to make).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do schools not assign summer reading? My kids school gives a long list of books (prose and poetry) from which kids can choose. They have to read a certain number of books and are expected to write briefly about the reading they did over the summer. Both my kids have had some version of this every year at different schools since 4th grade. Seems like the kind of thing a parent could implement if schools aren't.

The point of Summer isn’t for schools to assign more work. Summer is for breaks, exploring other interest and learning other life skills. If parents want to assign school related things that’s their prerogative. Schools on the other hand have an academic calendar that doesn’t include Summer and as such shouldn’t include required assignments. If they want to assign work during Summer then change to a year round academic calendar.

Go finish your homework, Lucy. Yes, you still need to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is absolutely laughable to claim that today’s great minds of CS are not voracious readers of fiction.

Who has made that exact claim?

You would have us believe that a higher percentage of CS majors are voracious readers of fiction than humanities or social sciences majors?

DP. No skin in this game, but no one made that claim either.

Then why bring up the claim that “today’s great minds of CS are voracious readers”? Whether true or not, it’s a complete non sequitur.

I’m not sure you are following the thread? The first claim that was made in this sub-thread was that today’s great minds of CS were reading philosophy or logic, not fiction. That is obviously not true (and an impossible statement to make).

And pages before that was the statement that "the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance." Which led to the tangential discussion what CS majors read.

[Anonymous]

My 7th grader had to read 4 books over summer - 3 of her own choosing with one that she wouldn't know be part if the first assignment this fall. There's also 6 books to read over this 7th grade. My 8th grader read Fahrenheit 451 which is not an easy one to read. He has dyslexia and ADHD to boot! We go to a private school regarded as good but not academically strong rated top 20 in VA. It's not a pressure cooker and I feel like it's prob avg in terms of difficulty comparable for public but now I realize it must be way above them! I don't understand how you can go to Columbia not knowing how to read. I don't understand why public school sucks as much as it does.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

Wow, I feel sorry for you. Your inability to understand some of the greatest fiction ever written indicates lacks in other aspects of your understanding of life.

Why...there are a ton of people who hate all fiction writing. Why are you superior because you enjoy fiction and someone else would rather read a 1,000 page book on Oppenheimer or other non-fiction.

One thing is that non-fiction tends to be what-you-read-is-what-there-is. Whereas fiction involves subtle themes, style, symbolism, subtext….things you have to dig to discover. Reading non-fiction is a much more passive process.

PP is correct. Reading fiction is like 100x harder because you have to interpret so much more by way of style, theme, character analysis, et al. My dyslexic ADHD 9th grader can read non fiction and prefers it - he can read medical textbooks but reading the Outsiders was so so hard in 6th grade for him. Non fiction is straight forward factual black and white for knowledge and that's easily processed if you know the vocab. But it's a lot more brain power to look at fiction and take apart the complexities that make that book special. Shakespeare is much harder than a biography.

[Anonymous]

I'm so sad that the veneer of being educated (high scores, entry into brand name college) is prioritized over actual education.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My dcs go to a good public high school in the south. Ds has not had to read a book since middle school. Dd has had one book to read for AP English Lit so far, that's it.

Have you ever heard of the library? My children read books outside of school. Writing is a whole different matter - I don't know how to get them to write essays as an extracurricular

Don't tell that to the CS major parents on DCUM who seem to think that anything non-STEM is intellectually inferior and unchallenging.

The outrage on this topic (on an addictive parenting blog, no less) strikes me as overblown. This trend has been a long time and coming.

But more than that, the reality is that so few adults, even college educated ones, read books once they finish their schooling, I’m not convinced it’s very meaningful information. The way we absorb information and our attention spans have changed. That’s the reality and life is changing because of it.

PP - people like you are what's wrong with the world. We study certain books and lessons because it's classic - these themes are universal and lasting. By educating ourselves through breaking down characters and analyzing themes and taking the time to reflect on context and interpretations - these lessons make us stronger, better, more wise when we live our lives. Reading fiction is about studying personalities. You get to really understand how to read people, you learn about human nature and it truly gives you a leg up on the world because as social animals, we deal with other people. It's a gift to be able to learn what drives us. The best books teach you that.

It's not about being less progressive nor recognizing everything changes with time. I'm the first person who says all the time you can't expect things to remain the same forever. But you can teach certain concepts which will not change and these lessons in math, science, language, reading - they don't change.

You can certainly fun stuff and whatever you want - of course you don't have to only read Anna Karina or A Tale of Two Cities. But you have to be able to if you need or want to. We fail our kids when we can't be bothered to recognize the value of teaching them a skill set as basic as reading comprehension at a high level and the ability to analyze themes.

It's like texting. We all text and it's fine, but when you can't type more than 3 full sentences and write a paragraph, that's just very sad. It's what we've become. I can read a map and give directions as I'm 50. I don't think a lot of 25 year olds can because they don't have to but I believe that it's a disadvantage they can't. They don't have to know how to do it anymore of course but the skills and abilities that go into doing so are still valuable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The way we absorb information and our attention spans have changed. That’s the reality and life is changing because of it.

This kind of mindset is how humankind ends up like they do in WALL-E.

[Anonymous]

“It’s definitely something that has come out of Covid when teachers couldn’t enforce reading”

What prevented teachers from assigning reading and then testing kids to make sure they had read the assigned book?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“It’s definitely something that has come out of Covid when teachers couldn’t enforce reading”

What prevented teachers from assigning reading and then testing kids to make sure they had read the assigned book?

The problem is what to do when half the kids fail the test because they’re not capable of doing the work properly or didn’t bother trying. Give them an F for the subject? That’s not popular these days, especially not when one race passes and another race of kids doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dcs go to a good public high school in the south. Ds has not had to read a book since middle school. Dd has had one book to read for AP English Lit so far, that's it.

Have you ever heard of the library? My children read books outside of school. Writing is a whole different matter - I don't know how to get them to write essays as an extracurricular

Don't tell that to the CS major parents on DCUM who seem to think that anything non-STEM is intellectually inferior and unchallenging.

The outrage on this topic (on an addictive parenting blog, no less) strikes me as overblown. This trend has been a long time and coming.

But more than that, the reality is that so few adults, even college educated ones, read books once they finish their schooling, I’m not convinced it’s very meaningful information. The way we absorb information and our attention spans have changed. That’s the reality and life is changing because of it.

PP - people like you are what's wrong with the world. We study certain books and lessons because it's classic - these themes are universal and lasting. By educating ourselves through breaking down characters and analyzing themes and taking the time to reflect on context and interpretations - these lessons make us stronger, better, more wise when we live our lives. Reading fiction is about studying personalities. You get to really understand how to read people, you learn about human nature and it truly gives you a leg up on the world because as social animals, we deal with other people. It's a gift to be able to learn what drives us. The best books teach you that.

It's not about being less progressive nor recognizing everything changes with time. I'm the first person who says all the time you can't expect things to remain the same forever. But you can teach certain concepts which will not change and these lessons in math, science, language, reading - they don't change.

You can certainly fun stuff and whatever you want - of course you don't have to only read Anna Karina or A Tale of Two Cities. But you have to be able to if you need or want to. We fail our kids when we can't be bothered to recognize the value of teaching them a skill set as basic as reading comprehension at a high level and the ability to analyze themes.

It's like texting. We all text and it's fine, but when you can't type more than 3 full sentences and write a paragraph, that's just very sad. It's what we've become. I can read a map and give directions as I'm 50. I don't think a lot of 25 year olds can because they don't have to but I believe that it's a disadvantage they can't. They don't have to know how to do it anymore of course but the skills and abilities that go into doing so are still valuable.

I partly agree with your elegantly expressed rationale but I think a lot of the classics I read in high school were not inspiring or relatable. Most of them were tragedies and really depressing.

Most of the tragedies boiled down to obvious lessons like:

-Don't be a bad person, steal, or kill

-If you do a bad thing it will haunt you

-Power corrupts and technology will lead to a dystopia

-Shit happens

-When individuals oppose the state it usually doesn't end well

I feel like people could definitely develop those understandings outside of reading fiction. Unfortunately, people have to read a lot of tedious classics to find the ones they do like.

I have read 1,000s of pages of classics. I love to read in general. But it's mostly not due to curriculum. And I think non-fiction is equally worthy as long as it's adult level and written with some degree of craft. And I get the most insight on people by reading biographies and autobiographies and long form journalism instead of ponderings about Heathcliff and Captain Ahab.

We just have a cultural construct that "privileges" lengthy fiction. We have been indoctrinated to believe that due to university traditions. It works well, but is not the "One True Way".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My dcs go to a good public high school in the south. Ds has not had to read a book since middle school. Dd has had one book to read for AP English Lit so far, that's it.

This is really sad. Please don’t tell this to people in real life. You can encourage your teens to read by offering a reward, like $$ or ice cream or something fun. Do your kids not take any AP English or history courses?