Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

No, no, you don't understand. I don't feel I can "support terrorists and zealots because I assume they'll never come anywhere near me." I KNOW Israel is never going to come anywhere near me, but that is not why I CAN'T support Israel. I'd feel the same way even if Israel did have the power to hurt me.

As for the influence of my tax dollars, all I can do is vote and speak out in ways that I hope will influence US foreign policy. That's what all of us are doing here. There's a paradigm shift in public opinion and Israel has broadly lost respect and support in the West. Policy changes will probably follow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

What is your view about how much of an opinion Americans are entitled to have about how their tax dollars are spent? Since you seem to draw the limit sometime before “posting on an internet politics discussion board” you clearly don’t have a very expansive view of the first amendment.

As we still live in a free nation you are free to have as many ill-considered opinions as you please. But when you start yelling like an irate first class passenger who's been denied a seat in the airport lounge about your tax dollars, I am free to laugh at you and your arrogant assumptions that paying American taxes should give your foreign policy ideas some weight.

Again, you're the worst kind of armchair imperialist. That's my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

What is your view about how much of an opinion Americans are entitled to have about how their tax dollars are spent? Since you seem to draw the limit sometime before “posting on an internet politics discussion board” you clearly don’t have a very expansive view of the first amendment.

As we still live in a free nation you are free to have as many ill-considered opinions as you please. But when you start yelling like an irate first class passenger who's been denied a seat in the airport lounge about your tax dollars, I am free to laugh at you and your arrogant assumptions that paying American taxes should give your foreign policy ideas some weight.

Again, you're the worst kind of armchair imperialist. That's my opinion.

That’s a perfectly valid opinion.

The thing about a free nation is that we hold elections. One candidate is polling extremely poorly among groups that are absolute must-win in states that are absolute must-wins because of this issue.

It may well seem entitled to you that voters expect their opinions to carry weight, but if reporting is to be believed it’s causing real heartache among democratic strategists in Michigan right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

The days of outsmarting unsuspecting or sympathetic post-WWII rubes and convincing others to do the costly bidding are over. Go cry victim to someone else. America has been exploited by Israel enough already.

As for the “trust me” part: Wow, that is astounding. I would sooner trust just about anyone else in this world than trust someone who believes what you believe, that the answer to this never ending disaster of a concept (Zionism) is to send even more aid, “massive military aid to Israel”. You are insane. No thanks, check please.

Good grief. The antisemitism …. All these Jews “Outsmarting unsuspecting WWII rubes”? Wow. Is that how you characterize Jews who actually survived the Holocaust?

-If you disagree with IDF killing 22,000 people in retaliation for 1,000 = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing hopsitals = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF indscriminate bombing = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing churches/mosques = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing schools = anitsemite
-If you disagree with IDF illegally using chemical weapons = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF snipers shooting sheltering women in churches = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering hostages = antisemite
-If you disagree with Israel using collective punishment = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing refugee camps = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting ambulances and medical staff = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting journalists = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing places they instructed palestinians to evacute to = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering israeli hostages = antisemite

It's so hard to tell which are the terrorists anymore honestly. How is this the most "moral" army in the world?

Way to exaggerate to try to make an obvious point - people are afraid of being labeled as anti-semites, just the same way people were afraid of saying the wrong thing with the BLM movement.

But if you decide that you are super angry and upset about Palestinians dying in Gaza, but weren’t upset about the atrocities of October 7, and you weren’t upset about Palestinians being killed in Syria. . . Don’t you think that might have something to do with anti-semitism? Or perhaps you’ve just been brainwashed by the virtue signaling and liberalistic influencers who always focus on oppressed and oppressors?

I wish people spoke more about Hamas in these arguments. Hamas is the enemy of the Palestinians. Palestinians would have their own state but their government would never agree to a two state solution.

Their government was never offered a 2-state solution after the initial resolution.

who cares. No one is going to give Palestine a country like a Christmas present. One, why would anyone do that, and two, where would this country be located? I guess Palestinians can go to war to get one...oh wait! That is what is happening now?

lol the "who cares!" schtick is losing whatever sting you thought it had originally.

it still stands--there are many things going in the world, many problems, so yes, who cares about this land dispute. I would love to take all people like me and live in Grand Cayman, but that is a want, not an imperative that others needs to care about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

The days of outsmarting unsuspecting or sympathetic post-WWII rubes and convincing others to do the costly bidding are over. Go cry victim to someone else. America has been exploited by Israel enough already.

As for the “trust me” part: Wow, that is astounding. I would sooner trust just about anyone else in this world than trust someone who believes what you believe, that the answer to this never ending disaster of a concept (Zionism) is to send even more aid, “massive military aid to Israel”. You are insane. No thanks, check please.

Good grief. The antisemitism …. All these Jews “Outsmarting unsuspecting WWII rubes”? Wow. Is that how you characterize Jews who actually survived the Holocaust?

-If you disagree with IDF killing 22,000 people in retaliation for 1,000 = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing hopsitals = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF indscriminate bombing = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing churches/mosques = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing schools = anitsemite
-If you disagree with IDF illegally using chemical weapons = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF snipers shooting sheltering women in churches = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering hostages = antisemite
-If you disagree with Israel using collective punishment = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing refugee camps = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting ambulances and medical staff = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting journalists = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing places they instructed palestinians to evacute to = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering israeli hostages = antisemite

It's so hard to tell which are the terrorists anymore honestly. How is this the most "moral" army in the world?

Way to exaggerate to try to make an obvious point - people are afraid of being labeled as anti-semites, just the same way people were afraid of saying the wrong thing with the BLM movement.

But if you decide that you are super angry and upset about Palestinians dying in Gaza, but weren’t upset about the atrocities of October 7, and you weren’t upset about Palestinians being killed in Syria. . . Don’t you think that might have something to do with anti-semitism? Or perhaps you’ve just been brainwashed by the virtue signaling and liberalistic influencers who always focus on oppressed and oppressors?

I wish people spoke more about Hamas in these arguments. Hamas is the enemy of the Palestinians. Palestinians would have their own state but their government would never agree to a two state solution.

Their government was never offered a 2-state solution after the initial resolution.

who cares. No one is going to give Palestine a country like a Christmas present. One, why would anyone do that, and two, where would this country be located? I guess Palestinians can go to war to get one...oh wait! That is what is happening now?

lol the "who cares!" schtick is losing whatever sting you thought it had originally.

it still stands--there are many things going in the world, many problems, so yes, who cares about this land dispute. I would love to take all people like me and live in Grand Cayman, but that is a want, not an imperative that others needs to care about.

Posting ad nauseam on an internet forum is a weird way to show you don't care. I mean you must REALLY not care. Like, you're very anxious to let people know you don't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

The days of outsmarting unsuspecting or sympathetic post-WWII rubes and convincing others to do the costly bidding are over. Go cry victim to someone else. America has been exploited by Israel enough already.

As for the “trust me” part: Wow, that is astounding. I would sooner trust just about anyone else in this world than trust someone who believes what you believe, that the answer to this never ending disaster of a concept (Zionism) is to send even more aid, “massive military aid to Israel”. You are insane. No thanks, check please.

Good grief. The antisemitism …. All these Jews “Outsmarting unsuspecting WWII rubes”? Wow. Is that how you characterize Jews who actually survived the Holocaust?

-If you disagree with IDF killing 22,000 people in retaliation for 1,000 = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing hopsitals = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF indscriminate bombing = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing churches/mosques = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing schools = anitsemite
-If you disagree with IDF illegally using chemical weapons = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF snipers shooting sheltering women in churches = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering hostages = antisemite
-If you disagree with Israel using collective punishment = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing refugee camps = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting ambulances and medical staff = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting journalists = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing places they instructed palestinians to evacute to = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering israeli hostages = antisemite

It's so hard to tell which are the terrorists anymore honestly. How is this the most "moral" army in the world?

Anything the idf targets is terrorist infrastructure. You are parroting Hamas! Unbelievable! You don’t want Palestinians to evacuate from areas that will be bombed? Are you nuts? Of course they should, otherwise you will accuse Israel of targeting civilians. Israel targets terrorists who embed amongst civilians. Israel didn’t intentionally kill their own people. All of this is Hamas propaganda. Why would you back a terror organization that is bent on genocide of Israel and has colonialist ambitions to take Jewish land? Did you know that Hamas, on October 7th, went to a music concert and tortured people before murdering them? Here is an example. Hamas or a Palestinian civilian, it isn’t clear which videoed themselves torturing and murdering a concertgoer and then sent the video to his group of friends on WhatsApp and to his mother. You know what they did to him? They cut off his penis and put it in his mouth while he was alive. That is what all his friends and his mother saw. His friend told this story to the world. And now here you are parroting Hamas propaganda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

The days of outsmarting unsuspecting or sympathetic post-WWII rubes and convincing others to do the costly bidding are over. Go cry victim to someone else. America has been exploited by Israel enough already.

As for the “trust me” part: Wow, that is astounding. I would sooner trust just about anyone else in this world than trust someone who believes what you believe, that the answer to this never ending disaster of a concept (Zionism) is to send even more aid, “massive military aid to Israel”. You are insane. No thanks, check please.

Good grief. The antisemitism …. All these Jews “Outsmarting unsuspecting WWII rubes”? Wow. Is that how you characterize Jews who actually survived the Holocaust?

-If you disagree with IDF killing 22,000 people in retaliation for 1,000 = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing hopsitals = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF indscriminate bombing = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing churches/mosques = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing schools = anitsemite
-If you disagree with IDF illegally using chemical weapons = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF snipers shooting sheltering women in churches = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering hostages = antisemite
-If you disagree with Israel using collective punishment = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing refugee camps = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting ambulances and medical staff = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting journalists = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing places they instructed palestinians to evacute to = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering israeli hostages = antisemite

It's so hard to tell which are the terrorists anymore honestly. How is this the most "moral" army in the world?

Way to exaggerate to try to make an obvious point - people are afraid of being labeled as anti-semites, just the same way people were afraid of saying the wrong thing with the BLM movement.

But if you decide that you are super angry and upset about Palestinians dying in Gaza, but weren’t upset about the atrocities of October 7, and you weren’t upset about Palestinians being killed in Syria. . . Don’t you think that might have something to do with anti-semitism? Or perhaps you’ve just been brainwashed by the virtue signaling and liberalistic influencers who always focus on oppressed and oppressors?

I wish people spoke more about Hamas in these arguments. Hamas is the enemy of the Palestinians. Palestinians would have their own state but their government would never agree to a two state solution.

This is literally my point - you can't speak about any of this very long list of sh$t israel is doing without someone calling you an anti-semite. Being against suffering of people doesnt mean you agree with the suffering of other people. Why are you always trying to make this black and white? There is a million shades of grey in the middle of pro-israel/zionist and pro-hamas/anti-semite.

World Pacifism Day--its first anniversay will be 10/8/24

When you talk about Israel does this Israel does that, the point is you have an agenda. What do you want us to do with this information? If you say, let Israel wither on the vine and die, but what is that poses a risk to U.S. security? You don't care about that. So no, there is no gray with you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.

No one supports Hamas!!!!

You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.

A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage

This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.

Decayed infants story is true.

Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.

Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.

PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?

What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?

Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.

Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.

This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.

An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.

But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?

Here is some further information:

"Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

From the same report:

"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""

Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.

Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.

Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?

Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.

There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.

You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .

Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.

Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.

A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.

Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.

everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

No, no, you don't understand. I don't feel I can "support terrorists and zealots because I assume they'll never come anywhere near me." I KNOW Israel is never going to come anywhere near me, but that is not why I CAN'T support Israel. I'd feel the same way even if Israel did have the power to hurt me.

As for the influence of my tax dollars, all I can do is vote and speak out in ways that I hope will influence US foreign policy. That's what all of us are doing here. There's a paradigm shift in public opinion and Israel has broadly lost respect and support in the West. Policy changes will probably follow.

You may have me mistaken for a fan of Israel. I'm not, particularly, but I recognize that the set of conditions that created that nation and its people is so far outside of my lived experience that all I can do is listen and learn.

I'm also not a fan of misogynistic cultures that use rape as a weapon, or crusaders who think there is only one true faith, or people who believe in holy wars, or those who believe that the location of some people they're claiming as ancestors from. 3,000 or 300 years ago entitles them to anything today.

Were this my world order, I would invite everyone who just wants to raise their families in peace an opportunity to leave the area, and then I'd build a big wall. We could place bets on the survival of those who remain inside. If this sounds monsterous--well, it should. It would be. Obviously, that's no solution either. But when you play scorched earth games as Israel and Hamas do now, that is the prize: a lot of scorched earth.

What I think most of all is for some of you this is just an excuse to blame Biden or America for something they have very little control over. As I said, you're all against the "colonizers" but you're totally fine pushing on with your own half-baked ideas about foreign policy. The fact that this is DC and some of you may actually work in the field is depressing.

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Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

The days of outsmarting unsuspecting or sympathetic post-WWII rubes and convincing others to do the costly bidding are over. Go cry victim to someone else. America has been exploited by Israel enough already.

As for the “trust me” part: Wow, that is astounding. I would sooner trust just about anyone else in this world than trust someone who believes what you believe, that the answer to this never ending disaster of a concept (Zionism) is to send even more aid, “massive military aid to Israel”. You are insane. No thanks, check please.

Good grief. The antisemitism …. All these Jews “Outsmarting unsuspecting WWII rubes”? Wow. Is that how you characterize Jews who actually survived the Holocaust?

-If you disagree with IDF killing 22,000 people in retaliation for 1,000 = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing hopsitals = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF indscriminate bombing = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing churches/mosques = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing schools = anitsemite
-If you disagree with IDF illegally using chemical weapons = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF snipers shooting sheltering women in churches = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering hostages = antisemite
-If you disagree with Israel using collective punishment = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing refugee camps = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting ambulances and medical staff = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting journalists = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing places they instructed palestinians to evacute to = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering israeli hostages = antisemite

It's so hard to tell which are the terrorists anymore honestly. How is this the most "moral" army in the world?

Way to exaggerate to try to make an obvious point - people are afraid of being labeled as anti-semites, just the same way people were afraid of saying the wrong thing with the BLM movement.

But if you decide that you are super angry and upset about Palestinians dying in Gaza, but weren’t upset about the atrocities of October 7, and you weren’t upset about Palestinians being killed in Syria. . . Don’t you think that might have something to do with anti-semitism? Or perhaps you’ve just been brainwashed by the virtue signaling and liberalistic influencers who always focus on oppressed and oppressors?

I wish people spoke more about Hamas in these arguments. Hamas is the enemy of the Palestinians. Palestinians would have their own state but their government would never agree to a two state solution.

Their government was never offered a 2-state solution after the initial resolution.

who cares. No one is going to give Palestine a country like a Christmas present. One, why would anyone do that, and two, where would this country be located? I guess Palestinians can go to war to get one...oh wait! That is what is happening now?

lol the "who cares!" schtick is losing whatever sting you thought it had originally.

it still stands--there are many things going in the world, many problems, so yes, who cares about this land dispute. I would love to take all people like me and live in Grand Cayman, but that is a want, not an imperative that others needs to care about.

Posting ad nauseam on an internet forum is a weird way to show you don't care. I mean you must REALLY not care. Like, you're very anxious to let people know you don't care.

You want americans to not care so much that we will let those who do not have our best interest in mind trick us into doing what harms us.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

What is your view about how much of an opinion Americans are entitled to have about how their tax dollars are spent? Since you seem to draw the limit sometime before “posting on an internet politics discussion board” you clearly don’t have a very expansive view of the first amendment.

As we still live in a free nation you are free to have as many ill-considered opinions as you please. But when you start yelling like an irate first class passenger who's been denied a seat in the airport lounge about your tax dollars, I am free to laugh at you and your arrogant assumptions that paying American taxes should give your foreign policy ideas some weight.

Again, you're the worst kind of armchair imperialist. That's my opinion.

That’s a perfectly valid opinion.

The thing about a free nation is that we hold elections. One candidate is polling extremely poorly among groups that are absolute must-win in states that are absolute must-wins because of this issue.

It may well seem entitled to you that voters expect their opinions to carry weight, but if reporting is to be believed it’s causing real heartache among democratic strategists in Michigan right now.

Then they are morons. More like, some GOP strategists in Michigan (or more likely at some centralized location in Virginia), have decided they can push this as another wedge issue to fracture their opposition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

What is your view about how much of an opinion Americans are entitled to have about how their tax dollars are spent? Since you seem to draw the limit sometime before “posting on an internet politics discussion board” you clearly don’t have a very expansive view of the first amendment.

As we still live in a free nation you are free to have as many ill-considered opinions as you please. But when you start yelling like an irate first class passenger who's been denied a seat in the airport lounge about your tax dollars, I am free to laugh at you and your arrogant assumptions that paying American taxes should give your foreign policy ideas some weight.

Again, you're the worst kind of armchair imperialist. That's my opinion.

That’s a perfectly valid opinion.

The thing about a free nation is that we hold elections. One candidate is polling extremely poorly among groups that are absolute must-win in states that are absolute must-wins because of this issue.

It may well seem entitled to you that voters expect their opinions to carry weight, but if reporting is to be believed it’s causing real heartache among democratic strategists in Michigan right now.

Then they are morons. More like, some GOP strategists in Michigan (or more likely at some centralized location in Virginia), have decided they can push this as another wedge issue to fracture their opposition.

Such morons they lept on planes to Michigan to try to do damage control.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/muslim-arab-americans-rage-biden-michigan-israel-gaza-rcna121513

You ignore voters at your peril in this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

What is your view about how much of an opinion Americans are entitled to have about how their tax dollars are spent? Since you seem to draw the limit sometime before “posting on an internet politics discussion board” you clearly don’t have a very expansive view of the first amendment.

As we still live in a free nation you are free to have as many ill-considered opinions as you please. But when you start yelling like an irate first class passenger who's been denied a seat in the airport lounge about your tax dollars, I am free to laugh at you and your arrogant assumptions that paying American taxes should give your foreign policy ideas some weight.

Again, you're the worst kind of armchair imperialist. That's my opinion.

That’s a perfectly valid opinion.

The thing about a free nation is that we hold elections. One candidate is polling extremely poorly among groups that are absolute must-win in states that are absolute must-wins because of this issue.

It may well seem entitled to you that voters expect their opinions to carry weight, but if reporting is to be believed it’s causing real heartache among democratic strategists in Michigan right now.

Then they are morons. More like, some GOP strategists in Michigan (or more likely at some centralized location in Virginia), have decided they can push this as another wedge issue to fracture their opposition.

Your tax dollars sure do support Hamas. Have you heard of UNWRA? Your tax dollars finance UNWRA and in turn have financed the very terror tunnels that Hamas built to murder, torture, dismember, rape and kidnap Jews and others. The humanitarian aid that our tax dollars support in Gaza has gone directly to Hamas during this war. Hamas took it from their own people. Hamas shot their own people for trying to take food so they wouldn’t starve. You are very selective in the information you like to parrot, but you unfortunately don’t know the whole story of what goes on in Israel and Gaza and the West Bank. I don’t have the energy to point out your inaccuracies at the moment, but it is entirely obvious that you are parroting Hamas propaganda. If you are against the existence of Israel and antiZionist, you are antisemitic. You can criticize Israel like you criticize any country without being antisemitic. But if you hold Israel to a standard that you hold no other country to, then you are antisemitic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.

You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.

You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.

What is your view about how much of an opinion Americans are entitled to have about how their tax dollars are spent? Since you seem to draw the limit sometime before “posting on an internet politics discussion board” you clearly don’t have a very expansive view of the first amendment.

As we still live in a free nation you are free to have as many ill-considered opinions as you please. But when you start yelling like an irate first class passenger who's been denied a seat in the airport lounge about your tax dollars, I am free to laugh at you and your arrogant assumptions that paying American taxes should give your foreign policy ideas some weight.

Again, you're the worst kind of armchair imperialist. That's my opinion.

That’s a perfectly valid opinion.

The thing about a free nation is that we hold elections. One candidate is polling extremely poorly among groups that are absolute must-win in states that are absolute must-wins because of this issue.

It may well seem entitled to you that voters expect their opinions to carry weight, but if reporting is to be believed it’s causing real heartache among democratic strategists in Michigan right now.

Then they are morons. More like, some GOP strategists in Michigan (or more likely at some centralized location in Virginia), have decided they can push this as another wedge issue to fracture their opposition.

Such morons they lept on planes to Michigan to try to do damage control.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/muslim-arab-americans-rage-biden-michigan-israel-gaza-rcna121513

You ignore voters at your peril in this country.

These are some dumb people. Haha! They will get Trump, and he will NOT suffer fools. No way in hell would I vote for Trump, which is what they are doing by not voting for Biden.

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Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

The days of outsmarting unsuspecting or sympathetic post-WWII rubes and convincing others to do the costly bidding are over. Go cry victim to someone else. America has been exploited by Israel enough already.

As for the “trust me” part: Wow, that is astounding. I would sooner trust just about anyone else in this world than trust someone who believes what you believe, that the answer to this never ending disaster of a concept (Zionism) is to send even more aid, “massive military aid to Israel”. You are insane. No thanks, check please.

Good grief. The antisemitism …. All these Jews “Outsmarting unsuspecting WWII rubes”? Wow. Is that how you characterize Jews who actually survived the Holocaust?

-If you disagree with IDF killing 22,000 people in retaliation for 1,000 = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing hopsitals = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF indscriminate bombing = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing churches/mosques = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing schools = anitsemite
-If you disagree with IDF illegally using chemical weapons = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF snipers shooting sheltering women in churches = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering hostages = antisemite
-If you disagree with Israel using collective punishment = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing refugee camps = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting ambulances and medical staff = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF targeting journalists = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF bombing places they instructed palestinians to evacute to = antisemite
-If you disagree with IDF murdering surrendering israeli hostages = antisemite

It's so hard to tell which are the terrorists anymore honestly. How is this the most "moral" army in the world?

Way to exaggerate to try to make an obvious point - people are afraid of being labeled as anti-semites, just the same way people were afraid of saying the wrong thing with the BLM movement.

But if you decide that you are super angry and upset about Palestinians dying in Gaza, but weren’t upset about the atrocities of October 7, and you weren’t upset about Palestinians being killed in Syria. . . Don’t you think that might have something to do with anti-semitism? Or perhaps you’ve just been brainwashed by the virtue signaling and liberalistic influencers who always focus on oppressed and oppressors?

I wish people spoke more about Hamas in these arguments. Hamas is the enemy of the Palestinians. Palestinians would have their own state but their government would never agree to a two state solution.

Their government was never offered a 2-state solution after the initial resolution.

who cares. No one is going to give Palestine a country like a Christmas present. One, why would anyone do that, and two, where would this country be located? I guess Palestinians can go to war to get one...oh wait! That is what is happening now?

lol the "who cares!" schtick is losing whatever sting you thought it had originally.

it still stands--there are many things going in the world, many problems, so yes, who cares about this land dispute. I would love to take all people like me and live in Grand Cayman, but that is a want, not an imperative that others needs to care about.

Very blasé, and yet hundreds and hundreds of the same posts over the past 9 weeks - all clearly attempting to convince those opposed to the human catastrophe unfolding in Gaza that we have no voice, that we are wasting their time by having "feelings" (which are not real, we're told), that there's nothing that can be done to change U.S. foreign policy, that we should stop paying attention to what's happening in the Middle East, and that we should just stop talking about it already!

Fascinating "who cares?" rhetoric, indeed.