Claiming a disability on the SAT/ACT - have people been gaming the system?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids are at one of the so-called Big 3s here in DC. Two of my children have ADHD. Neither one of them gets accommodations because they need to learn how to handle it. They instead have an executive functioning coach. They are both in upper school now, and their grades are fine. Not stellar, but fine. One got into her first choice for college (not an Ivy or super-selective school).

My kids have told me that they think about 50% of the students get extra time. They say they don’t want it. But I am now wondering if I have somehow done them a disservice by not getting them accommodations. It’s a strange world.

The key here is that the world exists beyond college. So I would argue by not mowing down obstacles you have actually created a kids who will have learned to keep going even if they're not winning, to work harder than the next guy and advocate for what they want. My guess is at their 20th reunion, they will be far more successful than all those kids with accommodations who never learned to maneuver around and through problems.

Your generalizations and ignorance about disabilities is getting in your way. This maneuvering around a disability is a myth. Most kids with disabilities who are not helped, accommodated etc hate school by early elementary. To any parents with kids who are struggling at school, always keep your focus on never allowing any teacher, school, other students to make your kid hate school. Kids with disabilities with no support often stop trying and decide they are stupid. It's a waste of a valuable person to society to allow this. Kids with disabilities can't usually just gut it out. They often end up unemployed or in jail. This is why IDEA exists. The accommodations are a way of leveling the playing field so they can benefit from education like neurotypical kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids are at one of the so-called Big 3s here in DC. Two of my children have ADHD. Neither one of them gets accommodations because they need to learn how to handle it. They instead have an executive functioning coach. They are both in upper school now, and their grades are fine. Not stellar, but fine. One got into her first choice for college (not an Ivy or super-selective school).

My kids have told me that they think about 50% of the students get extra time. They say they don’t want it. But I am now wondering if I have somehow done them a disservice by not getting them accommodations. It’s a strange world.

The key here is that the world exists beyond college. So I would argue by not mowing down obstacles you have actually created a kids who will have learned to keep going even if they're not winning, to work harder than the next guy and advocate for what they want. My guess is at their 20th reunion, they will be far more successful than all those kids with accommodations who never learned to maneuver around and through problems.

Your generalizations and ignorance about disabilities is getting in your way. This maneuvering around a disability is a myth. Most kids with disabilities who are not helped, accommodated etc hate school by early elementary. To any parents with kids who are struggling at school, always keep your focus on never allowing any teacher, school, other students to make your kid hate school. Kids with disabilities with no support often stop trying and decide they are stupid. It's a waste of a valuable person to society to allow this. Kids with disabilities can't usually just gut it out. They often end up unemployed or in jail. This is why IDEA exists. The accommodations are a way of leveling the playing field so they can benefit from education like neurotypical kids.

I would like for the person who suggests that kids with disabilities should just "mow down obstacles" to volunteer his/her kids for "last place" in every race, every test, every measure of ability, for their entire educational career--do it without support or appropriate accommodation, knowing that dyslexia, ADHD, language disorders, dyscalculia, not intelligence, is what is holding them back. Tell them that failure has made them stronger and better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My oldest daughter took a math class at her elite NE boarding school where 40% of the kids had IEP/extra time. She found it frustrating because as she was struggling, there were many kids with bogus “disabilities” that had twice as much time to take tests.

This is another bunch of BS that needs to be addressed. I have a kid with multiple, significant disabilities. Some of these disabilities are invisible. You really have no clue if another person has a disability or not. We also don't advertise it.

[Anonymous]

If we get to the point where a substantial fraction of kids 'need' accommodations, perhaps it is the test that needs to change. (And by this, I mean the test itself, reliance on SAT/ACT, or a combination of the two).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest daughter took a math class at her elite NE boarding school where 40% of the kids had IEP/extra time. She found it frustrating because as she was struggling, there were many kids with bogus “disabilities” that had twice as much time to take tests.

Isn't it funny how these 'elite' schools who claim to be unable to accommodate learning differences have so many kids in need of testing accommodations...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest daughter took a math class at her elite NE boarding school where 40% of the kids had IEP/extra time. She found it frustrating because as she was struggling, there were many kids with bogus “disabilities” that had twice as much time to take tests.

Isn't it funny how these 'elite' schools who claim to be unable to accommodate learning differences have so many kids in need of testing accommodations...

Amen. And those schools require entrance exams (SSAT) that a student with disabilities would score poorly on without accommodations

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do we have accommodations at all, except in severe cases? I understand if you're blind and need the test read to you, or you have a phsyical disability and can't easily fill in the circles on the sheet -- then extra time seems warranted.

But isn't the goal of the test to measure against other students? Why not have the same testing environment for all then? I realize some will score poorer than others, but isn't that exactly what it's trying to measure?

As an employer, if an aptitude test reflects your job duties, then it's useful to know how much you can accomplish within a fixed amount of time, because that's part of the job.

I know it's not a popular opinion, but I agree with you. Unfortunately, given the heavy weight of standardized tests & the ability to prep & 'game'--everyone is looking for an advantage. The tests are timed for a reason.

When I was a TA (Ivy), I was floored at the number of premed students who received extra time to take tests. I have no idea how many went on to become doctors, but if you can't process a college-level exam in a timely fashion, are you prepared to make rapid decisions with life & death consequences?

I agree. Why not just give some extra time to EVERYONE and see where it ends up? Make testing more available in smaller locations. That levels it for all and will cut back on the motivation to cheat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids are at one of the so-called Big 3s here in DC. Two of my children have ADHD. Neither one of them gets accommodations because they need to learn how to handle it. They instead have an executive functioning coach. They are both in upper school now, and their grades are fine. Not stellar, but fine. One got into her first choice for college (not an Ivy or super-selective school).

My kids have told me that they think about 50% of the students get extra time. They say they don’t want it. But I am now wondering if I have somehow done them a disservice by not getting them accommodations. It’s a strange world.

The key here is that the world exists beyond college. So I would argue by not mowing down obstacles you have actually created a kids who will have learned to keep going even if they're not winning, to work harder than the next guy and advocate for what they want. My guess is at their 20th reunion, they will be far more successful than all those kids with accommodations who never learned to maneuver around and through problems.

Your generalizations and ignorance about disabilities is getting in your way. This maneuvering around a disability is a myth. Most kids with disabilities who are not helped, accommodated etc hate school by early elementary. To any parents with kids who are struggling at school, always keep your focus on never allowing any teacher, school, other students to make your kid hate school. Kids with disabilities with no support often stop trying and decide they are stupid. It's a waste of a valuable person to society to allow this. Kids with disabilities can't usually just gut it out. They often end up unemployed or in jail. This is why IDEA exists. The accommodations are a way of leveling the playing field so they can benefit from education like neurotypical kids.

I would like for the person who suggests that kids with disabilities should just "mow down obstacles" to volunteer his/her kids for "last place" in every race, every test, every measure of ability, for their entire educational career--do it without support or appropriate accommodation, knowing that dyslexia, ADHD, language disorders, dyscalculia, not intelligence, is what is holding them back. Tell them that failure has made them stronger and better.

Last place? You act so enlightened, but you still view learning as a competition?

Honestly, this is the problem right here, folks. This pp doesn’t care about her dc learning. Only about what place dc gets. It’s no wonder you want extra time so badly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't end in high school, folks. Every university that I have attended or worked at has an “Office of Disabilty Services.” A huge part of what they do is providing those types of allowances. But it gets worse. At every school I’ve been associated with, there is NO requirement for the student to provide any substantiation for their supposed “condition.” No doctor report, nothing. All it takes is a five minute interview at that office, and the kid gets extended or unlimited time, calculator and notes when none are allowed for the rest of the class, etc. As the faculty member, I receive a notice of what the students “accomodaton” is from that office, and I have to comply - I have no say in the matter.

The whole thing’s a racket, and it is well known among the students. My biggest surprise is that more students don’t take advantage of it.

We are navigating this with my kid and you are full of crap. You need a full neuropsych evaluation that is less than three years old to even start the process of college accommodations.

Yep. This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The college board should extend the time for EVERYONE. That will remove the processing speed gaming and truly test the knowledge.

except ... the WHOLE POINT IS TESTING PROCESSING SPEED. save your arguments for the colleges -- let them figure out admissions standards that go beyond processing speed. and stop denying that processing speed is not one important component of ability for some kinds of achievement.

No. The test is not to test speed. The point is to see if somebody has learned enough in 17 years to attend a college.

Exactly. The tests are a general way for schools to understand if a student is college ready. I think we can all agree though that this system is flawed in many ways. Colleges struggle with what to do to find the students who will fit and benefit their schools. The system as it is encourages schools to pick the kids with the highest scores because when parents see that they want their kids there. If any school appears to be more exclusive - ie harder to get into - parents suddenly want their children in those schools. The US News rankings has actually created a lot of the hysteria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids are at one of the so-called Big 3s here in DC. Two of my children have ADHD. Neither one of them gets accommodations because they need to learn how to handle it. They instead have an executive functioning coach. They are both in upper school now, and their grades are fine. Not stellar, but fine. One got into her first choice for college (not an Ivy or super-selective school).

My kids have told me that they think about 50% of the students get extra time. They say they don’t want it. But I am now wondering if I have somehow done them a disservice by not getting them accommodations. It’s a strange world.

The key here is that the world exists beyond college. So I would argue by not mowing down obstacles you have actually created a kids who will have learned to keep going even if they're not winning, to work harder than the next guy and advocate for what they want. My guess is at their 20th reunion, they will be far more successful than all those kids with accommodations who never learned to maneuver around and through problems.

Your generalizations and ignorance about disabilities is getting in your way. This maneuvering around a disability is a myth. Most kids with disabilities who are not helped, accommodated etc hate school by early elementary. To any parents with kids who are struggling at school, always keep your focus on never allowing any teacher, school, other students to make your kid hate school. Kids with disabilities with no support often stop trying and decide they are stupid. It's a waste of a valuable person to society to allow this. Kids with disabilities can't usually just gut it out. They often end up unemployed or in jail. This is why IDEA exists. The accommodations are a way of leveling the playing field so they can benefit from education like neurotypical kids.

I would like for the person who suggests that kids with disabilities should just "mow down obstacles" to volunteer his/her kids for "last place" in every race, every test, every measure of ability, for their entire educational career--do it without support or appropriate accommodation, knowing that dyslexia, ADHD, language disorders, dyscalculia, not intelligence, is what is holding them back. Tell them that failure has made them stronger and better.

Don't forget the nasty questions you get when your child finally starts succeeding because some blessed sent from Heaven teachers start applying the accommodations in the classroom: you "must be helping them." Um. nope. Now is the time for them to succeed or fail once the playing field is leveled with accommodations.

Posters are upset with the scumbag cheaters - not those for whom the ADA law was enacted to protect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted on the other thread about my DS who scored a 35 on the ACT using time and a half. He had accommodations since 2nd grade when he was diagnosed with ADHD and slow processing. In summer prior to 8th grade, he was tested again, and the same diagnosis held, but with the processing speed improving slightly. He continued with his accommodations through 8th grade and high school. He had time and a half to take the ACT in February of his junior year and scored a 35 -- one and done. He has always been a strong test taker and very intelligent, so it did not come as a huge surprise, and we were thrilled. That summer, in preparation for possibility of need for accommodations in college, he had his third neuro-psych test. This test actually showed a very strong improvement in processing speed. Apparently this is something that can improve as the brain develops. We were thrilled to see this improvement and realized then that perhaps the accommodations he had for the ACT may not have been needed because of the stark improvement in processing speed. Perhaps that explains the high score. We will never know, but in our case, I would not say we "gamed the system." We just got lucky.

no, you did not get lucky. you gamed the system.

You can only do testing every few years so it isn't gaming the system. They have had documented concerns since 2nd grade. Different than someone coming in middle or high school demanding extra time.

I don't think anyone should get extended time for "low processing speed," period. I remember this PP and she has gone on before about how "brilliant" her DS is and how he is such as "strong" test taker ... even knowing that, she STILL finagled the extra time for the ACT. Totally gaming the system. What she had was a bright, quirky kid who seemed a little different as a younger kid, and she decided that she could not stand even the slightest difficulty for him.

You don't do neuropsych testing if everything is ok starting in 2nd grade. Do you realize the costs involved for the average family? You have no idea what some of the challenges some of our kids face.

I mean, this thread was triggered by the FEDERAL INDICTMENTS indicating that in fact, privileged parents pay good $$$ for exactly this kind of thing. I have a kid with an IEP myself, so I understand challenges. But there's no doubt that testing accomodations are abused. This PP is an object lesson.

The indictments show that obtaining sham diagnosis was just the first step.

Then Singer and his accomplices used those faked reports to get extra time and give them an opportunity top change the students' answers. The fraud included fraudulent accommodations but ALSO old school cheating (changing answers just enough to bring in an acceptable, but not too high score).

These were not parents who sought fake diagnoses, and then had the kids test on their own with just extra time. It went WAY beyond that, and in fact, required bribing ACT and SAT staff.

Singer had a psychologist who did the testing to document fake disabilities and then showed the parents how to fight for accommodations that would allow them to test outside of the normal facility with a special proctor. They would work with the proctors (who worked for sat and act) to figure out the dates they were available and the facilities where they would be. I don't know how they pulled this off but they were able to ensure those kids were in a room alone with the bribed proctor who either took the test for the kid or fixed the test for the kid. One kid wasnt even in the same city (fbi knew from cell phone tower pings) when he was supposedly taking the test.

[Anonymous]

This debate is scraming for some data.

Based on this article from Education Week (from someone who thinks the SAT should be untimed for all) in 2015-16 the college board received 160,000 requests for accommodations and approved about 80% of them. https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/08/25/have-sat-accommodations-gone-too-far.html

So 128,000 students took the test with accommodations (perhaps slightly less because this isn't adjusted for people who took it 2x). https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/08/25/have-sat-accommodations-gone-too-far.html

1,681,134 students took the SAT that year. https://reports.collegeboard.org/archive/sat-suite-program-results/2016/class-of-2016-results

So, ~ 7% of students received accommodations on the test in 2016.

The CDC estimates that the percentage of the population with reading-related learning disabilities is 10%; the percentage of people under the age of 18 who have ADHD is about 15%, and 2/3 of the number of people with ADJD + at least one other mental, emotional, or behavioral disorder. https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html

While the number of students with ADHD may go up or down by year, in general the rate of students receiving accommodations is lower than the percentage in the general student population.

The problem of fake or questionable diagnoses is probably outsized in certain communities (like the DMV), but this is not the crisis or scandal some on this thread think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2 cents -- my child has a fine motor delay among other issues, and we've specifically asked for him NOT to get extra testing time in his IEP because we think he should learn to compensate, and we don't want him to think of himself as disabled or not having to work hard. He's still very young, but I think it's good for him to realize his weaknesses and learn to compensate, because the real world will not accomodate him.

You are doing a disservice to your child and you clearly don't understand your child's disabilities. I see this all the time on sn forums where a parent with a newly diagnosed child comes and the first thing they are concerned about is the child uses the label to be lazy or to not be accountable for behavoir issues. You are, in effect, punishing your child for their disability. If your kid's writing is slow and laborious, your child is going to miss instruction because child has to use more of the brain just to take notes. You need to educate yourself. Your sanctimonious post is all about you, not what is good for your child.

ffs. I let my kid get whatever accommodations he needs in class, to actually learn. when it comes to testing, however, he's going to test without accommodations. because I care more about his learning, and less about his grades. he's a smart kid and will end up where he belongs. your issue is that you care too much about standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted on the other thread about my DS who scored a 35 on the ACT using time and a half. He had accommodations since 2nd grade when he was diagnosed with ADHD and slow processing. In summer prior to 8th grade, he was tested again, and the same diagnosis held, but with the processing speed improving slightly. He continued with his accommodations through 8th grade and high school. He had time and a half to take the ACT in February of his junior year and scored a 35 -- one and done. He has always been a strong test taker and very intelligent, so it did not come as a huge surprise, and we were thrilled. That summer, in preparation for possibility of need for accommodations in college, he had his third neuro-psych test. This test actually showed a very strong improvement in processing speed. Apparently this is something that can improve as the brain develops. We were thrilled to see this improvement and realized then that perhaps the accommodations he had for the ACT may not have been needed because of the stark improvement in processing speed. Perhaps that explains the high score. We will never know, but in our case, I would not say we "gamed the system." We just got lucky.

no, you did not get lucky. you gamed the system.

You can only do testing every few years so it isn't gaming the system. They have had documented concerns since 2nd grade. Different than someone coming in middle or high school demanding extra time.

I don't think anyone should get extended time for "low processing speed," period. I remember this PP and she has gone on before about how "brilliant" her DS is and how he is such as "strong" test taker ... even knowing that, she STILL finagled the extra time for the ACT. Totally gaming the system. What she had was a bright, quirky kid who seemed a little different as a younger kid, and she decided that she could not stand even the slightest difficulty for him.

You don't do neuropsych testing if everything is ok starting in 2nd grade. Do you realize the costs involved for the average family? You have no idea what some of the challenges some of our kids face.

I mean, this thread was triggered by the FEDERAL INDICTMENTS indicating that in fact, privileged parents pay good $$$ for exactly this kind of thing. I have a kid with an IEP myself, so I understand challenges. But there's no doubt that testing accomodations are abused. This PP is an object lesson.

The indictments show that obtaining sham diagnosis was just the first step.

Then Singer and his accomplices used those faked reports to get extra time and give them an opportunity top change the students' answers. The fraud included fraudulent accommodations but ALSO old school cheating (changing answers just enough to bring in an acceptable, but not too high score).

These were not parents who sought fake diagnoses, and then had the kids test on their own with just extra time. It went WAY beyond that, and in fact, required bribing ACT and SAT staff.

Singer had a psychologist who did the testing to document fake disabilities and then showed the parents how to fight for accommodations that would allow them to test outside of the normal facility with a special proctor. They would work with the proctors (who worked for sat and act) to figure out the dates they were available and the facilities where they would be. I don't know how they pulled this off but they were able to ensure those kids were in a room alone with the bribed proctor who either took the test for the kid or fixed the test for the kid. One kid wasnt even in the same city (fbi knew from cell phone tower pings) when he was supposedly taking the test.

They bribed the proctors' supervisor too.