What do Atheists believe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thinking person should be aware that the end result of atheism as a foundation leads to "might makes right" with no argument of consequence against it.

I can believe there isn't any argument you'd accept, other than the "might makes right" of threatened hell and other punishments.

Hell isn’t a punishment. It’s having to live with yourself and all you want for all eternity. If you want to live an existence without God, then you can’t go to heaven. Not because you aren’t loved or wanted, but because you won’t go even if someone invites and pleads with you to go.

Where's THAT in the bible? or the catechism, or the written teachings of any Christian religion?

Answer: Nowhere, it's something that pp or a nice clergy person made up to make people feel better about their good friends or beloved family members who are going to hell (or are already there) because they don't have the proper beliefs.

They are not burning for eternity, they are simply living without god. whew.

Divine comedy, The Great Divorce, Screwtape letters

Also, I don’t read the Bible. I am catholic

I really don’t understand why you are so worried about Hell if you feel certain that life ends when you die.

I think you missed some sarcasm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thinking person should be aware that the end result of atheism as a foundation leads to "might makes right" with no argument of consequence against it.

I can believe there isn't any argument you'd accept, other than the "might makes right" of threatened hell and other punishments.

Hell isn’t a punishment. It’s having to live with yourself and all you want for all eternity. If you want to live an existence without God, then you can’t go to heaven. Not because you aren’t loved or wanted, but because you won’t go even if someone invites and pleads with you to go.

Oh. I see.

Except...... Athiests don't believe that. But that's been said already. We could go in circles about it but there's no point.

Look. I get that you don’t, can’t, and won’t believe. It doesn’t matter. You are still invited. Even if you are skeptical, even if you disagree, even if you are better than the rest of us sinners, even if you are worse. You are still invited.

By whom, PP, or the non-existent God?

You're invited to live your life without worrying about heaven and hell, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thinking person should be aware that the end result of atheism as a foundation leads to "might makes right" with no argument of consequence against it.

I can believe there isn't any argument you'd accept, other than the "might makes right" of threatened hell and other punishments.

Hell isn’t a punishment. It’s having to live with yourself and all you want for all eternity. If you want to live an existence without God, then you can’t go to heaven. Not because you aren’t loved or wanted, but because you won’t go even if someone invites and pleads with you to go.

Where's THAT in the bible? or the catechism, or the written teachings of any Christian religion?

Answer: Nowhere, it's something that pp or a nice clergy person made up to make people feel better about their good friends or beloved family members who are going to hell (or are already there) because they don't have the proper beliefs.

They are not burning for eternity, they are simply living without god. whew.

Divine comedy, The Great Divorce, Screwtape letters

You base your view of morality and an afterlife on acknowledged works of fiction?

And you argue that any thinking person will agree with you?

I ... I am guessing you do not read much fiction. It's actually pretty common for fiction authors to come up with different and non-commensurable ideas of how the world works. (The afterlife, too.)

[Anonymous]

Here's what Jesus said regarding everyone's invitation to Heaven. It covers both the invitation and the result of the rejection and can be found in Matthew 22. It's commonly known as the Parable of the Wedding Feast.

"And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ "

[Anonymous]

Jesus also tells a similar parable in Luke 15, commonly known as the Parable of the Great Banquet.

"When one of those who reclined at table with Him heard these things, he said to Him, “Blessed is everyone who will feat bread in the kingdom of God!” But Jesus said to him, “A man once hgave a great banquet and invited many. And at the time for the banquet he isent his servant to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.’ And another said, j‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’ ”

[Anonymous]

It's interesting that the king was "angry" in both these parables, and not "sorrowful." Not saddened that the invited would not be with him, but enraged at a gift being spurned. Kind of like a guy who asks you to prom and then becomes enraged at having to take 'no" for an answer.

Much more the vengeful god than the loving parent, but that is your choice to believe and quote.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's what Jesus said regarding everyone's invitation to Heaven. It covers both the invitation and the result of the rejection and can be found in Matthew 22. It's commonly known as the Parable of the Wedding Feast.

"And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ "

Anonymous wrote:Jesus also tells a similar parable in Luke 15, commonly known as the Parable of the Great Banquet.

"When one of those who reclined at table with Him heard these things, he said to Him, “Blessed is everyone who will feat bread in the kingdom of God!” But Jesus said to him, “A man once hgave a great banquet and invited many. And at the time for the banquet he isent his servant to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.’ And another said, j‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’ ”

PS: Yeah, those descriptions aren't natural consequences. That's punishment.

I'm okay that as an atheist, my morality is not based on being afraid of being punished by a wrathful, petulant god. I'm also okay that many of my friends and relatives are Christian, and I'm glad they find their belief sustaining. I don't hang out with people who emphasize a wrathful god, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thinking person should be aware that the end result of atheism as a foundation leads to "might makes right" with no argument of consequence against it.

I can believe there isn't any argument you'd accept, other than the "might makes right" of threatened hell and other punishments.

Hell isn’t a punishment. It’s having to live with yourself and all you want for all eternity. If you want to live an existence without God, then you can’t go to heaven. Not because you aren’t loved or wanted, but because you won’t go even if someone invites and pleads with you to go.

Where's THAT in the bible? or the catechism, or the written teachings of any Christian religion?

Answer: Nowhere, it's something that pp or a nice clergy person made up to make people feel better about their good friends or beloved family members who are going to hell (or are already there) because they don't have the proper beliefs.

They are not burning for eternity, they are simply living without god. whew.

Divine comedy, The Great Divorce, Screwtape letters

You base your view of morality and an afterlife on acknowledged works of fiction?

And you argue that any thinking person will agree with you?

I ... I am guessing you do not read much fiction. It's actually pretty common for fiction authors to come up with different and non-commensurable ideas of how the world works. (The afterlife, too.)

I didn’t say that about the “thinking person,” and I happen to disagree with that poster. I was a philosophy major in college, and while it was long ago, I recall there being several theories of morality that do not involve God or religion at all.
I did take the jab at southern baptists .

And I do read fiction. I am not sure about God. I have a lot of doubts. I am not in the camp that the Bible is a non-fictional historical document (which I am finding kind of bizarre coming from atheists), so anything talking about heaven and hell is going to be allegorical at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thinking person should be aware that the end result of atheism as a foundation leads to "might makes right" with no argument of consequence against it.

I can believe there isn't any argument you'd accept, other than the "might makes right" of threatened hell and other punishments.

Hell isn’t a punishment. It’s having to live with yourself and all you want for all eternity. If you want to live an existence without God, then you can’t go to heaven. Not because you aren’t loved or wanted, but because you won’t go even if someone invites and pleads with you to go.

Where's THAT in the bible? or the catechism, or the written teachings of any Christian religion?

Answer: Nowhere, it's something that pp or a nice clergy person made up to make people feel better about their good friends or beloved family members who are going to hell (or are already there) because they don't have the proper beliefs.

They are not burning for eternity, they are simply living without god. whew.

Divine comedy, The Great Divorce, Screwtape letters

You base your view of morality and an afterlife on acknowledged works of fiction?

And you argue that any thinking person will agree with you?

I ... I am guessing you do not read much fiction. It's actually pretty common for fiction authors to come up with different and non-commensurable ideas of how the world works. (The afterlife, too.)

I didn’t say that about the “thinking person,” and I happen to disagree with that poster. I was a philosophy major in college, and while it was long ago, I recall there being several theories of morality that do not involve God or religion at all.
I did take the jab at southern baptists .

And I do read fiction. I am not sure about God. I have a lot of doubts. I am not in the camp that the Bible is a non-fictional historical document (which I am finding kind of bizarre coming from atheists), so anything talking about heaven and hell is going to be allegorical at best.

Fair enough. I don't think of the Bible as a straight non-fiction historical document, either, but I was surprised to see the "thinking" person (actually, not you! sorry) reference fiction. But this makes more sense.

I was a philosophy major, too. Loved The Screwtape Letters, but I'm more of a Prolegomena girl myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thinking person should be aware that the end result of atheism as a foundation leads to "might makes right" with no argument of consequence against it.

I can believe there isn't any argument you'd accept, other than the "might makes right" of threatened hell and other punishments.

Hell isn’t a punishment. It’s having to live with yourself and all you want for all eternity. If you want to live an existence without God, then you can’t go to heaven. Not because you aren’t loved or wanted, but because you won’t go even if someone invites and pleads with you to go.

Where's THAT in the bible? or the catechism, or the written teachings of any Christian religion?

Answer: Nowhere, it's something that pp or a nice clergy person made up to make people feel better about their good friends or beloved family members who are going to hell (or are already there) because they don't have the proper beliefs.

They are not burning for eternity, they are simply living without god. whew.

Divine comedy, The Great Divorce, Screwtape letters

You base your view of morality and an afterlife on acknowledged works of fiction?

And you argue that any thinking person will agree with you?

I ... I am guessing you do not read much fiction. It's actually pretty common for fiction authors to come up with different and non-commensurable ideas of how the world works. (The afterlife, too.)

I didn’t say that about the “thinking person,” and I happen to disagree with that poster. I was a philosophy major in college, and while it was long ago, I recall there being several theories of morality that do not involve God or religion at all.
I did take the jab at southern baptists .

And I do read fiction. I am not sure about God. I have a lot of doubts. I am not in the camp that the Bible is a non-fictional historical document (which I am finding kind of bizarre coming from atheists), so anything talking about heaven and hell is going to be allegorical at best.

A lot of atheists were formerly fundamentalist Christians who were taught to take the Bible literally -- and ultimately couldn't. Some then tried to take it figuratively -- and couldn't do that either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting that the king was "angry" in both these parables, and not "sorrowful." Not saddened that the invited would not be with him, but enraged at a gift being spurned. Kind of like a guy who asks you to prom and then becomes enraged at having to take 'no" for an answer.

Much more the vengeful god than the loving parent, but that is your choice to believe and quote.

Except that invitation is for you to come and partake of the forgiveness offered for your sins by a God who offered up Himself and took your sins upon Himself so that you could join Him in the celebration. If you reject that, you accept that you must pay for your sins. You do, sin, you know. We all do. I do. Sin harms other people and God takes it seriously. He's offered to forgive you if you accept that forgiveness. That's what this banquet is an allegory for. If you reject the invitation, you accept the consequences of your sins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Except that invitation is for you to come and partake of the forgiveness offered for your sins by a God who offered up Himself and took your sins upon Himself so that you could join Him in the celebration. If you reject that, you accept that you must pay for your sins. You do, sin, you know. We all do. I do. Sin harms other people and God takes it seriously. He's offered to forgive you if you accept that forgiveness. That's what this banquet is an allegory for. If you reject the invitation, you accept the consequences of your sins.

And in both, the figure representing God is "angry" and exerts vengence. Not just saddened that you would not partake of his feast and the celebration. Not wishing and hoping you would change your mind -- he was actively angry at being rejected.

Hey, it's not my Bible. They certainly weren't the quotations I chose. They were the ones you chose to represent your god's reaction: rage.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I'm sorry. That was unkind and untrue.

You were trying to explain your view of heaven, and you were trying to do it in a welcoming way. I don't think you were trying to present a focus on God's reaction.

It's the latter that stands out for me, especially given that those who rejected the heaven-analogy feast had their own reasons, for the most part. But I should have been more respectful of you and your post. My apologies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I'm sorry. That was unkind and untrue.

You were trying to explain your view of heaven, and you were trying to do it in a welcoming way. I don't think you were trying to present a focus on God's reaction.

It's the latter that stands out for me, especially given that those who rejected the heaven-analogy feast had their own reasons, for the most part. But I should have been more respectful of you and your post. My apologies.

I would ask you to go back and examine the reasons that the invitees gave in the second parable. I bought a field, now I must go and inspect it? Who buys land before knowing what it is. Same with the livestock. And why can't you go to a wedding feast if you just got married? They are flimsy reasons, the same ones we give God why we can't come to Him.

Here's something I don't understand. There are numerous posts on here about how many bad things happen in the world and why doesn't God stop them. But if you look at the bad things in the world, do you think God instigated these? Someone rapes and murders someone, and that's not the fault of the perpetrator? And God vows to punish that. But before He does that, He still offers out forgiveness, if only the person will ask. But that person doesn't ask. Is God unjust to punish that? I mean, which way do you want it? This parable of the feasts, it's an illustration that we are all short of righteousness, but God has still prepared Heaven for us if we will just accept the invitation, if we will just accept His offer to forgive our sins. But if we don't, we have our sins that we have committed. Should God just overlook those? I thought you wanted justice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I'm sorry. That was unkind and untrue.

You were trying to explain your view of heaven, and you were trying to do it in a welcoming way. I don't think you were trying to present a focus on God's reaction.

It's the latter that stands out for me, especially given that those who rejected the heaven-analogy feast had their own reasons, for the most part. But I should have been more respectful of you and your post. My apologies.

I would ask you to go back and examine the reasons that the invitees gave in the second parable. I bought a field, now I must go and inspect it? Who buys land before knowing what it is. Same with the livestock. And why can't you go to a wedding feast if you just got married? They are flimsy reasons, the same ones we give God why we can't come to Him.

Here's something I don't understand. There are numerous posts on here about how many bad things happen in the world and why doesn't God stop them. But if you look at the bad things in the world, do you think God instigated these? Someone rapes and murders someone, and that's not the fault of the perpetrator? And God vows to punish that. But before He does that, He still offers out forgiveness, if only the person will ask. But that person doesn't ask. Is God unjust to punish that? I mean, which way do you want it? This parable of the feasts, it's an illustration that we are all short of righteousness, but God has still prepared Heaven for us if we will just accept the invitation, if we will just accept His offer to forgive our sins. But if we don't, we have our sins that we have committed. Should God just overlook those? I thought you wanted justice.

Remember -- this is your analogy, not mine, or at least, it is the one you are promoting.

If one of your children were to give one of these reasons, you think the proper response would be rage? Vengeance? Wrath? That is very clearly what is described.

Why won't you discuss the anger of the god-figure? You seem to talk about everything else but that. I'd like your take on it.