Potomac Yard (Alexandria) HOA — Issues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: The Declarant and the HOA cannot take land owned by the HOA to certain individuals for exclusive use and continue charging all members for it.

If it boils down to a money issue then the court can resolve it by awarding past expenses plus interest (at low rates for much of the time in question) and ordering an adjustment to charges in the future. The HOA's expense for the reserved spaces is a small fraction of the pavement maintenance budget, and a different, bigger fraction of the pavement marking budget. A small fraction of the snow removal budget too, maybe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The Declarant and the HOA cannot take land owned by the HOA to certain individuals for exclusive use and continue charging all members for it.

If it boils down to a money issue then the court can resolve it by awarding past expenses plus interest (at low rates for much of the time in question) and ordering an adjustment to charges in the future. The HOA's expense for the reserved spaces is a small fraction of the pavement maintenance budget, and a different, bigger fraction of the pavement marking budget. A small fraction of the snow removal budget too, maybe?

The court will award compensation for each month being denied and then correct the issue moving forward. I doubt it goes to trial, but if it does, it will be interesting if Frank hires an expert to tell the court what this is worth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Now we're getting somewhere in this thread. Thanks for this analysis. How is it so cut and dried to us here on DCUM but not in the HOA world with lawyers and lawsuits and fees?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Now we're getting somewhere in this thread. Thanks for this analysis. How is it so cut and dried to us here on DCUM but not in the HOA world with lawyers and lawsuits and fees?

It appears that HOA lawyers may prioritize billable hours over the outcome for their clients and do not have a fiduciary duty to the HOA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

The HOA president is a signatory of the document, as a grantor/grantee. So the HOA existed then, with the entire membership consisting of votes controlled by the developer/declarant?

The HOA should exist, but usually a declarant is not permitted to transfer common areas to the HOA until phases are complete and there should be a "Whereas" clause explaining the declarant ownership percentage in the HOA. Also, it would still be the HOA, not the declarant, in control if the common area had been turned over to the HOA before this happened. Once the area is deeded as "common area" to the HOA, it cannot be reserved to some owners while excluding others. I believe that's similar to what the developer/declarant attempted to do in the recent Telegraph Condo case, which the condo owner won.

Obviously, a lot of moving parts to this case. But it's going to come down to common area that belongs to the HOA and is paid for by everyone must be available for everyone to use. That's the essence of what common area is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Now we're getting somewhere in this thread. Thanks for this analysis. How is it so cut and dried to us here on DCUM but not in the HOA world with lawyers and lawsuits and fees?

It appears that HOA lawyers may prioritize billable hours over the outcome for their clients and do not have a fiduciary duty to the HOA.

Lawyers have a fiduciary duty to the bar, the court system and their clients. But in order to make money they need lawsuits. Muddying up the analysis and making smoke-and-mirrors arguments is how some of them operate. Some of them also try to scare off opponents by running up legal fees and fighting every point to expense and wear them out of the lawsuit. If everyone played fair (that's you HOA lawyers), these lawsuits wouldn't need to go on for years and take communities' reputations down with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Then, of course, the fourth paragraph assigning exclusive rights to the use of COMMON AREA - which effectively EXcludes all other HOA members from using their own common area - is just flat out illegal.

This is one heck of a mess. And unless there's something else involved here, it looks like a slam dunk for Frank.

Please start listening at the the 53:49 mark. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNHsClUbBWDhnWwegXc1XR3aBPtSgwGQ/view

Frank figures the parking space is valued and taxed at the same rate, per square foot, as the land his townhome sits on. But I don't think it works that way. I can't explain why in legal or real estate terms. But I owned a house where my lot was 6X the size of other houses on the same street, and not subdividable. Was my land valued at 6X as much as theirs? No, it was only 20% more, or 1.2X as much. The bulk of the land value was in the right it gave me to live on that street. The extra land wasn't worth much at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The Declarant and the HOA cannot take land owned by the HOA to certain individuals for exclusive use and continue charging all members for it.

If it boils down to a money issue then the court can resolve it by awarding past expenses plus interest (at low rates for much of the time in question) and ordering an adjustment to charges in the future. The HOA's expense for the reserved spaces is a small fraction of the pavement maintenance budget, and a different, bigger fraction of the pavement marking budget. A small fraction of the snow removal budget too, maybe?

The court will award compensation for each month being denied and then correct the issue moving forward. I doubt it goes to trial, but if it does, it will be interesting if Frank hires an expert to tell the court what this is worth.

Correct the issue how?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Then, of course, the fourth paragraph assigning exclusive rights to the use of COMMON AREA - which effectively EXcludes all other HOA members from using their own common area - is just flat out illegal.

This is one heck of a mess. And unless there's something else involved here, it looks like a slam dunk for Frank.

Please start listening at the the 53:49 mark. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNHsClUbBWDhnWwegXc1XR3aBPtSgwGQ/view

Frank figures the parking space is valued and taxed at the same rate, per square foot, as the land his townhome sits on. But I don't think it works that way. I can't explain why in legal or real estate terms. But I owned a house where my lot was 6X the size of other houses on the same street, and not subdividable. Was my land valued at 6X as much as theirs? No, it was only 20% more, or 1.2X as much. The bulk of the land value was in the right it gave me to live on that street. The extra land wasn't worth much at all.

Total nonsense. Frank has a very oversimplified view of property law in VA. He knows just enough to be dangerous and lose lots of money on attorneys fees for silly lawsuits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Then, of course, the fourth paragraph assigning exclusive rights to the use of COMMON AREA - which effectively EXcludes all other HOA members from using their own common area - is just flat out illegal.

This is one heck of a mess. And unless there's something else involved here, it looks like a slam dunk for Frank.

Please start listening at the the 53:49 mark. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNHsClUbBWDhnWwegXc1XR3aBPtSgwGQ/view

Frank figures the parking space is valued and taxed at the same rate, per square foot, as the land his townhome sits on. But I don't think it works that way. I can't explain why in legal or real estate terms. But I owned a house where my lot was 6X the size of other houses on the same street, and not subdividable. Was my land valued at 6X as much as theirs? No, it was only 20% more, or 1.2X as much. The bulk of the land value was in the right it gave me to live on that street. The extra land wasn't worth much at all.

Read the Fairfax Court court ruling on Batt v. Manchester Oaks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The Declarant and the HOA cannot take land owned by the HOA to certain individuals for exclusive use and continue charging all members for it.

If it boils down to a money issue then the court can resolve it by awarding past expenses plus interest (at low rates for much of the time in question) and ordering an adjustment to charges in the future. The HOA's expense for the reserved spaces is a small fraction of the pavement maintenance budget, and a different, bigger fraction of the pavement marking budget. A small fraction of the snow removal budget too, maybe?

The court will award compensation for each month being denied and then correct the issue moving forward. I doubt it goes to trial, but if it does, it will be interesting if Frank hires an expert to tell the court what this is worth.

Correct the issue how?

Read the Virginia Supreme Court ruling on Batt v. Manchester Oaks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Then, of course, the fourth paragraph assigning exclusive rights to the use of COMMON AREA - which effectively EXcludes all other HOA members from using their own common area - is just flat out illegal.

This is one heck of a mess. And unless there's something else involved here, it looks like a slam dunk for Frank.

Please start listening at the the 53:49 mark. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNHsClUbBWDhnWwegXc1XR3aBPtSgwGQ/view

Frank figures the parking space is valued and taxed at the same rate, per square foot, as the land his townhome sits on. But I don't think it works that way. I can't explain why in legal or real estate terms. But I owned a house where my lot was 6X the size of other houses on the same street, and not subdividable. Was my land valued at 6X as much as theirs? No, it was only 20% more, or 1.2X as much. The bulk of the land value was in the right it gave me to live on that street. The extra land wasn't worth much at all.

This was the formula used in Farifax County circuit court. 20 feet length by 8 foot width = 160 square feet times the per square price of their homes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any diagrams

This is the document with a plat showing the reserved parking spaces. It was recorded way back in 2014. Plat resolution isn't great but it's enough to see which spaces are reserved.

https://www.pyhoafacts.org/files/Association%20Documents/PYHOAParkingSpaceAssignmentandPlat.pdf

You should sue this law firm for drafting an unlawful parking policy.

Thank you to whoever posted this Assignment of Parking Spaces document. The sentence at the beginning of paragraph three: "WHEREAS the Association is the owner of certain property" is the key here. If the HOA owns this property at the time this document was executed, and there are no weird laws about HOA declarant powers in Virginia, then this Declarant had no legal right whatsoever to enter into this agreement pertaining to the HOA's property. Once that common area (and it IS common area) become the property of the HOA, the Declarant is out of it. Out. Only the HOA - as the owner - has the right to do anything with this property. What the HOA can do would be described in the HOA's declaration. Usually, when it comes to common area property, any changes (if changes are allowed) must be by vote of the entire membership, probably by supermajority, and that is IF, again, any changes can be made at all to the common areas. My guess is some lawyers put this together thinking HOA members would be too stupid to figure it out.

Someone screwed the pooch here, and it wasn't Frank.

Then, of course, the fourth paragraph assigning exclusive rights to the use of COMMON AREA - which effectively EXcludes all other HOA members from using their own common area - is just flat out illegal.

This is one heck of a mess. And unless there's something else involved here, it looks like a slam dunk for Frank.

Please start listening at the the 53:49 mark. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNHsClUbBWDhnWwegXc1XR3aBPtSgwGQ/view

Frank figures the parking space is valued and taxed at the same rate, per square foot, as the land his townhome sits on. But I don't think it works that way. I can't explain why in legal or real estate terms. But I owned a house where my lot was 6X the size of other houses on the same street, and not subdividable. Was my land valued at 6X as much as theirs? No, it was only 20% more, or 1.2X as much. The bulk of the land value was in the right it gave me to live on that street. The extra land wasn't worth much at all.

This argument was honored it involved taking a per square foot approach based on one’s land value. If you still disagree- you are disagreeing with the guy who spent $200,000 on legal fees and years of his life pursuing this claim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The Declarant and the HOA cannot take land owned by the HOA to certain individuals for exclusive use and continue charging all members for it.

If it boils down to a money issue then the court can resolve it by awarding past expenses plus interest (at low rates for much of the time in question) and ordering an adjustment to charges in the future. The HOA's expense for the reserved spaces is a small fraction of the pavement maintenance budget, and a different, bigger fraction of the pavement marking budget. A small fraction of the snow removal budget too, maybe?

The court will award compensation for each month being denied and then correct the issue moving forward. I doubt it goes to trial, but if it does, it will be interesting if Frank hires an expert to tell the court what this is worth.

Correct the issue how?

Correct the issue by returning the parking spaces to the use of all members of the HOA. There is no way "common area" can be assigned to exclusive use. It's a legal a legal impossibility. It's like being a little bit pregnant or nearly beheaded - neither are possible, you are or you aren't. HOA areas that are assigned to exclusive use of some members are called LIMITED Common Elements and are paid for by only those who have access to use them. In Virginia, this exists only for condos, not for fee simple ownership that you find in HOAs. Maybe the legislature needs to include limited elements in the POAA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The Declarant and the HOA cannot take land owned by the HOA to certain individuals for exclusive use and continue charging all members for it.

If it boils down to a money issue then the court can resolve it by awarding past expenses plus interest (at low rates for much of the time in question) and ordering an adjustment to charges in the future. The HOA's expense for the reserved spaces is a small fraction of the pavement maintenance budget, and a different, bigger fraction of the pavement marking budget. A small fraction of the snow removal budget too, maybe?

The court will award compensation for each month being denied and then correct the issue moving forward. I doubt it goes to trial, but if it does, it will be interesting if Frank hires an expert to tell the court what this is worth.

Correct the issue how?

Correct the issue by returning the parking spaces to the use of all members of the HOA. There is no way "common area" can be assigned to exclusive use. It's a legal a legal impossibility. It's like being a little bit pregnant or nearly beheaded - neither are possible, you are or you aren't. HOA areas that are assigned to exclusive use of some members are called LIMITED Common Elements and are paid for by only those who have access to use them. In Virginia, this exists only for condos, not for fee simple ownership that you find in HOAs. Maybe the legislature needs to include limited elements in the POAA?

Legislation can not interfere with private contracts, which is what a Declaration is.