Earning Well but Drowning in Debt...how to dig out?

[Anonymous]

Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

We need a negative rate for the planet to sustain the species into the future. Right now we are quickly spending down the surplus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Oh please. DC has a relatively low col compared to European capital cities. There have been articles about how difficult it is for French women to work and get promoted due to the childcare situation. Having three children is expensive in every developed county. If anything, housing is expensive and children require bedrooms. Children do not require two newish cars and activities, which the OP has spent money on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

We need a negative rate for the planet to sustain the species into the future. Right now we are quickly spending down the surplus.

PP here: I agree that we need to stop the expansion, we need all developing countries to go through their demographic transition, but a country that cannot take care of its elders is in big time troubles too (think Japan, think Germany that needs a big influx of migrants and that's not necessarily an easy solution to manage..). In the US it is less visible because the immigration balance covers the problem and a lot of new migrants have larger families too. But politically, culturally, not all countries manage to absorb big influx of migrants (and I say that as someone from Arabic descent who had zero issues assimilating to French culture and feels very French, I still think assimilating large communities of migrants is a difficult challenge to say the least). Anyway, sidetracking the conversation too much but it is simplistic to think developed countries should aim for a shrinking population and it will help the global balance..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:3 kids is a sign of success in this area. It's a keeping up with the Joneses move for a lot of people.

3 kids is definitely a "luxury" in this area.
I know many, many families who stopped at 1 or 2 because they couldn't afford a another child.

While a luxury it can be done if priorities are set up at the beginning. I have coworkers who have 4 and 5 kids. The guys make about $120k and the wives stay at home. They live in not too big houses in not awesome school districts and homeschool and don't vacation outside of some family trips. Always bring lunch, drive old vans. The kids are adorable, well behaved and seem content but I doubt anyone goes to any camp or non church event ever. It's their choice and their families. Don't know about student loans for those coworkers but I highly doubt it as most went to state schools for a STEM field and had our company pay for grad school.

This is not the kind of life OP has in mind. She'll be in a bigger house as soon as they can swing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Oh please. DC has a relatively low col compared to European capital cities. There have been articles about how difficult it is for French women to work and get promoted due to the childcare situation. Having three children is expensive in every developed county. If anything, housing is expensive and children require bedrooms. Children do not require two newish cars and activities, which the OP has spent money on.

Sorry but you are delusional. I used to live in Paris and can tell you very clearly I could afford 3 kids there and not here. The housing situation is not the issue (except that here people think they need a bedroom per child and 2000sqft to survive and in Paris you would end up thinking it is perfectly fine to be 5 in 800sqft because ll your friends are doing it, but in the end in both cities you tend to spend at least 30% of your income on housing).
The diffenrece is
- daycare : I pay 2500 for 2 kids in daycare here, which is already cheaper than last year when I had to pay 3500$ with one kid in day care and the other in a nanny share (and I had to put the older in day care to avoid losing my spot and making sure the sibling gets in the year after). In France if I get a spot in daycare I would pay ~400 euros per kid until they are 2 (800/1000 euros if they end up in a nanny share) , then free full day PS starting at 2.5 years old. That's a HUGE difference. I cannot afford 3 kids in daycare, period, I am strangled with 2 already.
- aftercare: in France schools stop at 5pm. you don't have the same aftercare costs
- healthcare: no idea how much the extra cost was in France because it was so low i didn't factor it in.
- university: you don't have to save for university, zero, nada. The only schools that you need to pay for (business schools for ex.), the cost is still low enough that you can pay as you go or take non-soul crushing student debts. I cannot afford to help 3 kids with their tuition here so I wont have a third child because I dont want to hurt the chances of the other 2. I would never have to take that factor into account in France.

As for the articles on women in France. I read them. I disagree with your conclusions. I don't think the US is in any way more family friendly or that women's career suffer less. Yes when you have children your career tends to suffer at least temporarily. How can that be surprising? In the US my friends tend to think that it is everything or nothing, I have the high pace lawyer who will never have kids, the business woman who is so adamant not to hurt her career that she never says no and doesn't see her only child and the highly educated mom who feels like she cannot have it all and so prefers to opt out and be a SAHM. In France i think my friends don't worry so much. They work and have 3 kids and yes their careers slows down for 3-4 years and then it goes back up.

I have a very good career, I love my job, i work long hours. Since I had my kids I cannot work as long as other women with no kids (or other men with no kids). I am less flexible. I am tired. I have a great life outside of work i want to get back too. My husband is exactly the same. And our coworkers can see that. We don't get the hottest projects, biggest praise or fast track. But we are fine with that, in 2-3 years when our kids are a bit more independent we will be back into it. Or not if it feels good to be on a slower but enjoyable track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

You answered your own question: Americans are negative about it because it is very hard to afford children in the United States given the lack of societal supports (certainly compared to Western European countries).

I agree that it is a society failure. That does not change the fact that for individuals, it makes such a choice very difficult.

[Anonymous]

How can I move to France?!

The EU countries are doing something much better than the US. Oh, and they actually mandate paid parental leave for several months too.

Perhaps if the US offered some kind of paid parental leave, OP (and others) wouldn't be running up high debts to spend an extra few months with their newborns. Wow, OP is being slapped for taking 4 months off instead of the 3 months offered under FMLA.

Now that is sad

Yes, OP has made bad decisions. But she is admitting as much, and is trying hard to get advice to fix things. To accuse her of reproducing for "status" is absolutely ridiculous.

Living in a small rowhouse with a family of 5 and driving Hondas certainly doesn't denote status seeking. I respect that much more than the Mercedes SAHMs who have no educations and mooch off their trust find husbands.

OP and her DH seem like they have worked hard in school and at the fed and haven't been handed a silver platter or are trust fund kids. A rarity for this area.

OP - pat odd the CC debt first. Cheap camps or babysitter. Wait until the youngest is out of daycare and then tackle the student loans aggressively.

Once you have tackled the CC debt and about half thr student loans then you can consider a move to a larger home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

You answered your own question: Americans are negative about it because it is very hard to afford children in the United States given the lack of societal supports (certainly compared to Western European countries).

I agree that it is a society failure. That does not change the fact that for individuals, it makes such a choice very difficult.

Yup, sorry I did know the answer. What strikes me is the level of moral judgement in the responses (not just "thats a dumb financial move" ). I was reading the comments on an article in the NYT (the etiquette section I think) where people were more sympathetic towards the financial issues of one sister who had drug problems "she didn't choose to become a drug addict" versus the sister who chose to have 2 kids "you put yourself in that situation". Again as a foreigner it is amusingly weird

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

"has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors" in that case he is not in France as that's not how the system works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

"has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors" in that case he is not in France as that's not how the system works.

But I will add that for the rest I wont contradict you, Europe is certainly not cheap and unemployment is a big issue. There are a lot of people who cannot really afford having children. HOWEVER, it won't be such a catastrophic drain on their budget. If you are financially in trouble you will actually get a lot of free stuff (daycare could end up being almost completely free for ex. and that includes meals), your kids will have health insurance and their chances at higher education are not ruined. You receive a monthly stipend per child (family allocation). It is not the factor that will make you go bankrupt.. And for sure, in the situation of OP, with 2 working parents it wouldn't be an issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

Yeah, all the European and Canada cheerleaders tend to neglect to mention the downsides. Oh, all the paid leaves women get in other countries? The money paid is capped, often at very low amounts. Some companies supplement, most don't, and the ones that do--you're punished just like the lawyer mom in DC who takes the paid 16 week mat leave. The gov payment caps would be like getting unemployment benefits here--max 300-400 per week. It's great for the cashier who works down at the minimart or the office clerk at your nonnprofit making 40K per year, but the delusional DC moms who think the gov't is going to pony up to replace six figure incomes crack me up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

Oh please. DC has a relatively low col compared to European capital cities. There have been articles about how difficult it is for French women to work and get promoted due to the childcare situation. Having three children is expensive in every developed county. If anything, housing is expensive and children require bedrooms. Children do not require two newish cars and activities, which the OP has spent money on.

Sorry but you are delusional. I used to live in Paris and can tell you very clearly I could afford 3 kids there and not here. The housing situation is not the issue (except that here people think they need a bedroom per child and 2000sqft to survive and in Paris you would end up thinking it is perfectly fine to be 5 in 800sqft because ll your friends are doing it, but in the end in both cities you tend to spend at least 30% of your income on housing).
The diffenrece is
- daycare : I pay 2500 for 2 kids in daycare here, which is already cheaper than last year when I had to pay 3500$ with one kid in day care and the other in a nanny share (and I had to put the older in day care to avoid losing my spot and making sure the sibling gets in the year after). In France if I get a spot in daycare I would pay ~400 euros per kid until they are 2 (800/1000 euros if they end up in a nanny share) , then free full day PS starting at 2.5 years old. That's a HUGE difference. I cannot afford 3 kids in daycare, period, I am strangled with 2 already.
- aftercare: in France schools stop at 5pm. you don't have the same aftercare costs
- healthcare: no idea how much the extra cost was in France because it was so low i didn't factor it in.
- university: you don't have to save for university, zero, nada. The only schools that you need to pay for (business schools for ex.), the cost is still low enough that you can pay as you go or take non-soul crushing student debts. I cannot afford to help 3 kids with their tuition here so I wont have a third child because I dont want to hurt the chances of the other 2. I would never have to take that factor into account in France.

As for the articles on women in France. I read them. I disagree with your conclusions. I don't think the US is in any way more family friendly or that women's career suffer less. Yes when you have children your career tends to suffer at least temporarily. How can that be surprising? In the US my friends tend to think that it is everything or nothing, I have the high pace lawyer who will never have kids, the business woman who is so adamant not to hurt her career that she never says no and doesn't see her only child and the highly educated mom who feels like she cannot have it all and so prefers to opt out and be a SAHM. In France i think my friends don't worry so much. They work and have 3 kids and yes their careers slows down for 3-4 years and then it goes back up.

I have a very good career, I love my job, i work long hours. Since I had my kids I cannot work as long as other women with no kids (or other men with no kids). I am less flexible. I am tired. I have a great life outside of work i want to get back too. My husband is exactly the same. And our coworkers can see that. We don't get the hottest projects, biggest praise or fast track. But we are fine with that, in 2-3 years when our kids are a bit more independent we will be back into it. Or not if it feels good to be on a slower but enjoyable track.

Yep, these are the differences between a community-oriented society and a money-oriented one. Priorities!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Side note: a foreigner perspective on the 3 kids debate => as a French person I am always struck by how negative Americans are towards people who have 3 children. It is so often portrayed as a crazy, selfish, financially and environmentally irresponsible choice. I think in France we would think the same way about someone who chooses to have 5 or 6 children but 3?? we need some 3 kid families to ensure natural reproductive rate of the population (2.1 given the number of people who don't have kids or only 1).

Not judging. I am actually stopping at 2 myself because I understand it would be too hard for me to afford 3 children while living in the US. But I never thought 3 children would feel impossible. In France with subsidized day care, free education and full day schools you mostly choose your family size based on what seems the best balance in terms of time and love. It is too hard to raise a 3 kids family here.

And to finish my thought: people end up criticizing the 3 kids choice almost as a moral failure. From an outsider's perspective it looks more like a society failure..

What?! My brother is in the EU, pays 45+% taxes, 600 euros per month during the winter to warm up his 2 bed, 1.5 bath condo, double the price for gas, food, high interest rates etc etc. He also has to purchase private health insurance because the nationalized one comes with huge waiting times and no access to good doctors. He can only afford one child. My SIL has been unemployed for months despite a good education and great work history.

I don't know where your brother is, but assessments of happiness consistently rank the US below many EU countries.

Yeah, all the European and Canada cheerleaders tend to neglect to mention the downsides. Oh, all the paid leaves women get in other countries? The money paid is capped, often at very low amounts. Some companies supplement, most don't, and the ones that do--you're punished just like the lawyer mom in DC who takes the paid 16 week mat leave. The gov payment caps would be like getting unemployment benefits here--max 300-400 per week. It's great for the cashier who works down at the minimart or the office clerk at your nonnprofit making 40K per year, but the delusional DC moms who think the gov't is going to pony up to replace six figure incomes crack me up.