If TJ has such smart kids, why so much cheating?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see "turn everything into a thing about the admissions process" posters are back.

And to think for pages there we had legitimate discussion on the potential actual causes and effect of cheating among the high performing students at TJ going back decades and extending until today.

To be fair, the question was answered pretty early on. Kids are stressed because the grading is tougher at TJ than at base schools for the exact same course. Instead of giving kids the same grade they would have gotten at their base school for the same performance in the same course, they are curved against other TJ students and an A student at a base school becomes a B student at TJ. Then schools like UVA de-emphasize testing in favor of gpa and all of a sudden a top 1% kid with a 4.3 GPA cant' get into UVA.

If the grading was comparable to base schools and schools like UVA would try to understand that a B at TJ is basically an A at a base school you would see cheating go down almost overnight.

People have repeatedly said that the difference between the base schools and TJ isn't an issue. Remember: UVA has known TJ for decades. They know exactly, better than you or I do, how TJ's grading scale compares to base schools, what the yield is on TJ kids of a certain GPA versus base school kids of a certain GPA, and the like. Some kids may make this excuse, but if so they've been making it for decades. TJ's grading scale is still easier than NCS's, for example. People at NCS complain about their grading scale, but I don't see anyone rationalizing cheating based on it.

+1

GPA only matters within the context of the individual high school. You are primarily only competing against the other kids in your class for college admissions. Which is one of the downsides of choosing TJ.

Given the rigorous workload, high expectations from family/teachers/peers, and the intense competition from those peers, many students are driven to cheat.

Also true at many others HSs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see "turn everything into a thing about the admissions process" posters are back.

And to think for pages there we had legitimate discussion on the potential actual causes and effect of cheating among the high performing students at TJ going back decades and extending until today.

This comment seems out of the blue. It looks like the "evade legitimate discussion by turning everything into an us-vs-them battle" people are back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see "turn everything into a thing about the admissions process" posters are back.

And to think for pages there we had legitimate discussion on the potential actual causes and effect of cheating among the high performing students at TJ going back decades and extending until today.

To be fair, the question was answered pretty early on. Kids are stressed because the grading is tougher at TJ than at base schools for the exact same course. Instead of giving kids the same grade they would have gotten at their base school for the same performance in the same course, they are curved against other TJ students and an A student at a base school becomes a B student at TJ. Then schools like UVA de-emphasize testing in favor of gpa and all of a sudden a top 1% kid with a 4.3 GPA cant' get into UVA.

If the grading was comparable to base schools and schools like UVA would try to understand that a B at TJ is basically an A at a base school you would see cheating go down almost overnight.

People have repeatedly said that the difference between the base schools and TJ isn't an issue. Remember: UVA has known TJ for decades. They know exactly, better than you or I do, how TJ's grading scale compares to base schools, what the yield is on TJ kids of a certain GPA versus base school kids of a certain GPA, and the like. Some kids may make this excuse, but if so they've been making it for decades. TJ's grading scale is still easier than NCS's, for example. People at NCS complain about their grading scale, but I don't see anyone rationalizing cheating based on it.

Nobody is excusing the cheating, we are explaining the likely source. TJ creates unnecessary pressure and that pressure can lead to cheating.
Eliminate the unnecessary pressure and cheating goes down, at least a bit.
Cheating is not unique to TJ so i expect there is some level of background cheating you just won't get rid of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see "turn everything into a thing about the admissions process" posters are back.

And to think for pages there we had legitimate discussion on the potential actual causes and effect of cheating among the high performing students at TJ going back decades and extending until today.

To be fair, the question was answered pretty early on. Kids are stressed because the grading is tougher at TJ than at base schools for the exact same course. Instead of giving kids the same grade they would have gotten at their base school for the same performance in the same course, they are curved against other TJ students and an A student at a base school becomes a B student at TJ. Then schools like UVA de-emphasize testing in favor of gpa and all of a sudden a top 1% kid with a 4.3 GPA cant' get into UVA.

If the grading was comparable to base schools and schools like UVA would try to understand that a B at TJ is basically an A at a base school you would see cheating go down almost overnight.

People have repeatedly said that the difference between the base schools and TJ isn't an issue. Remember: UVA has known TJ for decades. They know exactly, better than you or I do, how TJ's grading scale compares to base schools, what the yield is on TJ kids of a certain GPA versus base school kids of a certain GPA, and the like. Some kids may make this excuse, but if so they've been making it for decades. TJ's grading scale is still easier than NCS's, for example. People at NCS complain about their grading scale, but I don't see anyone rationalizing cheating based on it.

Nobody is excusing the cheating, we are explaining the likely source. TJ creates unnecessary pressure and that pressure can lead to cheating.
Eliminate the unnecessary pressure and cheating goes down, at least a bit.
Cheating is not unique to TJ so i expect there is some level of background cheating you just won't get rid of.

If only these kids, had some sense of integrity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see "turn everything into a thing about the admissions process" posters are back.

And to think for pages there we had legitimate discussion on the potential actual causes and effect of cheating among the high performing students at TJ going back decades and extending until today.

This comment seems out of the blue. It looks like the "evade legitimate discussion by turning everything into an us-vs-them battle" people are back.

That’s what we have. The racist vs everyone else. DP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see "turn everything into a thing about the admissions process" posters are back.

And to think for pages there we had legitimate discussion on the potential actual causes and effect of cheating among the high performing students at TJ going back decades and extending until today.

To be fair, the question was answered pretty early on. Kids are stressed because the grading is tougher at TJ than at base schools for the exact same course. Instead of giving kids the same grade they would have gotten at their base school for the same performance in the same course, they are curved against other TJ students and an A student at a base school becomes a B student at TJ. Then schools like UVA de-emphasize testing in favor of gpa and all of a sudden a top 1% kid with a 4.3 GPA cant' get into UVA.

If the grading was comparable to base schools and schools like UVA would try to understand that a B at TJ is basically an A at a base school you would see cheating go down almost overnight.

People have repeatedly said that the difference between the base schools and TJ isn't an issue. Remember: UVA has known TJ for decades. They know exactly, better than you or I do, how TJ's grading scale compares to base schools, what the yield is on TJ kids of a certain GPA versus base school kids of a certain GPA, and the like. Some kids may make this excuse, but if so they've been making it for decades. TJ's grading scale is still easier than NCS's, for example. People at NCS complain about their grading scale, but I don't see anyone rationalizing cheating based on it.

Nobody is excusing the cheating, we are explaining the likely source. TJ creates unnecessary pressure and that pressure can lead to cheating.
Eliminate the unnecessary pressure and cheating goes down, at least a bit.
Cheating is not unique to TJ so i expect there is some level of background cheating you just won't get rid of.

If only these kids, had some sense of integrity.

It’s tough for kids when their parents are pushing them so much.

[Anonymous]

This problem starts with parents who bend the rules to give their kids an unfair advantage. They start to believe the ends justify the means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People cheated to get in under the new admission process. It is how they work.

How do you cheat in an admissions process that is almost a lottery?

Corruption

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This problem starts with parents who bend the rules to give their kids an unfair advantage. They start to believe the ends justify the means.

The problem is FCPS is a monopoly. There is no competition and there are not many other choices for parents and students.
FCPS becomes incompetent and lazy. Why would they keep using old test materials again and again (if the claim from previous posters that wealthy kids already knew the test materials before the test was legit)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This problem starts with parents who bend the rules to give their kids an unfair advantage. They start to believe the ends justify the means.

The problem is FCPS is a monopoly. There is no competition and there are not many other choices for parents and students.
FCPS becomes incompetent and lazy. Why would they keep using old test materials again and again (if the claim from previous posters that wealthy kids already knew the test materials before the test was legit)?

So, it’s not the fault of the people who illicitly gathered test questions into a “bank,” it’s the fault of people who give the test with the idea that people will be honest?

Whew, that is some complicated ethical gymnastics we’re going through here…

(And FCPS is not a monopoly- there are plenty of private schools available. No one is forcing children to go to a public school over private or to apply to TJ over their base school.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People cheated to get in under the new admission process. It is how they work.

How do you cheat in an admissions process that is almost a lottery?

Grades and standardized scores are a sufficient gauge of merit. The older process that had a special test was corrupt though. People were buying access to the test quesitons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see "turn everything into a thing about the admissions process" posters are back.

And to think for pages there we had legitimate discussion on the potential actual causes and effect of cheating among the high performing students at TJ going back decades and extending until today.

This comment seems out of the blue. It looks like the "evade legitimate discussion by turning everything into an us-vs-them battle" people are back.

That’s what we have. The racist vs everyone else. DP.

"The racist is everyone else" is a mentality a lot of people seem to share, unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

Because cheaters can be smart and unethical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This problem starts with parents who bend the rules to give their kids an unfair advantage. They start to believe the ends justify the means.

The problem is FCPS is a monopoly. There is no competition and there are not many other choices for parents and students.
FCPS becomes incompetent and lazy. Why would they keep using old test materials again and again (if the claim from previous posters that wealthy kids already knew the test materials before the test was legit)?

FCPS does not suffer from an incompetence problem. By all metrics, FCPS is a fantastic school system.
FCPS suffers from a DEI problem. They are trying to achieve a particular racial profile at a magnet school and they cannot actually use race in trying to achieve that profile.
So they have to try all sort of different admissions criteria and when the students adapt, they had to keep moving the goal posts.
Quant Q was an attempt at hiding the goal post in the hopes that this would achieve similar results but once someone scores a goal everyone knows where the goal posts are.
So they tried to keep the goal posts a secret by telling 3000 teenagers that they can't talk about the goalposts.

I don't think I have seen any evidence that they actually used the exact same questions but once you know the format of a test, you can study for it and the surprise element of testing is eliminated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This problem starts with parents who bend the rules to give their kids an unfair advantage. They start to believe the ends justify the means.

The problem is FCPS is a monopoly. There is no competition and there are not many other choices for parents and students.
FCPS becomes incompetent and lazy. Why would they keep using old test materials again and again (if the claim from previous posters that wealthy kids already knew the test materials before the test was legit)?

So, it’s not the fault of the people who illicitly gathered test questions into a “bank,” it’s the fault of people who give the test with the idea that people will be honest?

Whew, that is some complicated ethical gymnastics we’re going through here…

(And FCPS is not a monopoly- there are plenty of private schools available. No one is forcing children to go to a public school over private or to apply to TJ over their base school.)

The availability of private schools are a fairly bad argument that people have choice.