Why do some women think it's acceptable to get engaged without a ring?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I reject your version of feminism that is defined as the abolishment of gender norms.

I don’t have a problem with arbitrary gender norms like skirts or whatever. I have a problem with ones that limit the freedom or dignity of one sex while not doing so for the other.

If men also had to wear engagement rings, I’d have no problem with them. Why should women have to signal they are taken but men don’t? No.

You’re entitled to your opinion about gender norms. I have a problem with women suggesting that other women aren’t feminist because they don’t believe the same way you do. Women should do what they want about engagement rings, but wanting one doesn’t make a person NOT a feminist.

DP. Words have a meaning. Feminism means equality. Expecting someone to give you a gift on the basis of your gender is not feminist. The woman in question might be a feminist but her expectations in this regard are not.

Feminism is advocating for equal legal rights and opportunities. You don’t get to redefine the movement for everyone.

You conveniently forgot it's also about equality in the social sphere. Everyone is equal under the law in the Western world. All the issues we have come down to social inequality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A ring doesn't guarantee a man will be committed and generous, but it weeds out men who are blasé and stingy.

It really does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A ring doesn't guarantee a man will be committed and generous, but it weeds out men who are blasé and stingy.

It really does.

Yes. The rules are there for a reason. Young people think they know everything these days.

[Anonymous]

Oh, I don't have an engagement ring either. It was mostly a financial decision, although we had been together for several years, and it seemed silly to wait for a ring. I was bummed at the time, but not overly so. Now, 15 years later where we could afford a giant rock, it just seems silly. Plus college isn't getting any cheaper, and I like fancy vacations, etc. The ring isn't a priority at any level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My sister and another friend got "engaged" recently. None of them had rings and in the case of my sister, there was not even a proposal, just her and the guy agreeing on a date to get married later this year. I feel like it sets the bar very low for their partners and it's not something women should be ok with. My husband too popped the question without one and it felt incredibly informal, as if he wasn't serious about getting married. I told him that a ring was important to me and he popped the question again a week later with a ring.

A ring doesn't even need to be expensive, there are many cute rings for less than $500. It's the symbolism behind it that's important. It doesn't seem that my friend and sister are being taken seriously by their men, but they look like they're ok with it which is baffling. Women should stop pretending to be cool girls and set higher standards for their partners.

You sound really stupid.
DeBeers' historic ad campaign, crafted by the real-life mad men at N.W. Ayers, convinced generations of lovers that diamond bands were synonymous with eternal devotion.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/the-strange-and-formerly-sexist-economics-of-engagement-rings/255434/

The symbolism behind the ring?

https://archive.attn.com/stories/3845/disturbing-history-of-engagement-rings


It's meaningless and it just shows that Americans were the target of the campaing by DeBeers to sell their diamonds. And dingbats like you think it's important today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I reject your version of feminism that is defined as the abolishment of gender norms.

I don’t have a problem with arbitrary gender norms like skirts or whatever. I have a problem with ones that limit the freedom or dignity of one sex while not doing so for the other.

If men also had to wear engagement rings, I’d have no problem with them. Why should women have to signal they are taken but men don’t? No.

You’re entitled to your opinion about gender norms. I have a problem with women suggesting that other women aren’t feminist because they don’t believe the same way you do. Women should do what they want about engagement rings, but wanting one doesn’t make a person NOT a feminist.

DP. Words have a meaning. Feminism means equality. Expecting someone to give you a gift on the basis of your gender is not feminist. The woman in question might be a feminist but her expectations in this regard are not.

Feminism is advocating for equal legal rights and opportunities. You don’t get to redefine the movement for everyone.

You conveniently forgot it's also about equality in the social sphere. Everyone is equal under the law in the Western world. All the issues we have come down to social inequality.

I don’t believe that traditional expectations like an engagement ring or women wearing a dress to the ceremony, while upholding gender norms, are some sort of rebellion against feminism. No one is forcing you by law to give an engagement ring. A woman wanting one doesn’t suddenly become anti feminist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A ring doesn't guarantee a man will be committed and generous, but it weeds out men who are blasé and stingy.

Divorce statistics do not support your assertion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I reject your version of feminism that is defined as the abolishment of gender norms.

I don’t have a problem with arbitrary gender norms like skirts or whatever. I have a problem with ones that limit the freedom or dignity of one sex while not doing so for the other.

If men also had to wear engagement rings, I’d have no problem with them. Why should women have to signal they are taken but men don’t? No.

You’re entitled to your opinion about gender norms. I have a problem with women suggesting that other women aren’t feminist because they don’t believe the same way you do. Women should do what they want about engagement rings, but wanting one doesn’t make a person NOT a feminist.

DP. Words have a meaning. Feminism means equality. Expecting someone to give you a gift on the basis of your gender is not feminist. The woman in question might be a feminist but her expectations in this regard are not.

Feminism is advocating for equal legal rights and opportunities. You don’t get to redefine the movement for everyone.

What millenium are you living in? You seem to be stuck in the Second Wave of Feminism. Fourth Wave Feminisists recognize gendered norms for men and women perpetuate inequality. They are harmful to everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I reject your version of feminism that is defined as the abolishment of gender norms.

I don’t have a problem with arbitrary gender norms like skirts or whatever. I have a problem with ones that limit the freedom or dignity of one sex while not doing so for the other.

If men also had to wear engagement rings, I’d have no problem with them. Why should women have to signal they are taken but men don’t? No.

You’re entitled to your opinion about gender norms. I have a problem with women suggesting that other women aren’t feminist because they don’t believe the same way you do. Women should do what they want about engagement rings, but wanting one doesn’t make a person NOT a feminist.

DP. Words have a meaning. Feminism means equality. Expecting someone to give you a gift on the basis of your gender is not feminist. The woman in question might be a feminist but her expectations in this regard are not.

Do you not know the difference between 'wanting' something and having an 'expectation' someone should give you something because of your genders? If you want something, ask for it.

Feminism is advocating for equal legal rights and opportunities. You don’t get to redefine the movement for everyone.

You conveniently forgot it's also about equality in the social sphere. Everyone is equal under the law in the Western world. All the issues we have come down to social inequality.

I don’t believe that traditional expectations like an engagement ring or women wearing a dress to the ceremony, while upholding gender norms, are some sort of rebellion against feminism. No one is forcing you by law to give an engagement ring. A woman wanting one doesn’t suddenly become anti feminist.

[Anonymous]

They are smart
Diamonds bad investment all the way around.
All jewelry is.
Take the money and save it or put it in the market

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

I said "expected to" not "wants to".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A ring doesn't guarantee a man will be committed and generous, but it weeds out men who are blasé and stingy.

It really does.

Yes. The rules are there for a reason. Young people think they know everything these days.

That's because many of us young people spend a long time before getting to know our partners before getting married. By that point we already know whether they're worth it, ring or no ring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

Wanting to be a housewife is basically saying "i don't want to work, i just want to be financially supported by a man i'm in a romantic relatiinship with". That sort of relationship is nothing but socially condoned monogamous sex work. I'd be really disapointed if any of my children went that route, and no, I'm not a feminist.