Jessa Duggar had an abortion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A dilation & curettage procedure to remove a miscarried fetus is not an abortion as the baby already died. Removing a live or dead baby using this method is radically different as one kills a human being. This is a common practice after miscarriage that is moral to do.

Miscarriage is what she had.

You may not like it, but the medical term abortion covers any premature ending of a pregnancy (before viability). That is a fact and your sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “no it’s not!” doesn’t change that fact.

Many many of us here have had d&c’s for mossed miscarriages and know that in our medical records those were termed abortions.

You see, dear, the word abortion covers many different circumstances. So when you zealots try to outlaw it wholesale, there are unintended consequences to your imprecision of language.

The response is correct, but the mocking by the pro-abortion radicals is ridiculous.
I still remember a friend who desperately wanted the child she miscarried being so upset when the doctor wrote "spontaneous abortion."

We all know that there is a huge difference between a miscarriage and a "choice" to have an abortion.

But who gets to decide? And who gets to decide what is "bad enough" to perform an abortion? Or maybe we should just leave it to women and their doctors?

Who do you do to to interpret. Statute. In all seriousness, right now lawyers decide. Because Doctor’s and women need to determine whether they will be charged with a felony. It’s not what’s best for the women. It’s the point at which the doctors lawyer says the lawyer won’t be charged. And hypocritical oath aside, most Doctor’s err on the side of waiting and being certain the won’t be attested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A dilation & curettage procedure to remove a miscarried fetus is not an abortion as the baby already died. Removing a live or dead baby using this method is radically different as one kills a human being. This is a common practice after miscarriage that is moral to do.

Miscarriage is what she had.

The medical term for a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. When women have a D&C, it’s because of an incomplete spontaneous abortion. Abortion is outlawed, even if you call it a D&C. And BTW, the teen slut who comes in for an abortion of an unwanted baby also gets a D&C. Words matter.


I had two live births, an early miscarriage that did not require intervention and a an abortion to remove an ectopic pregnancy- where the heart was beating as the tube ruptured and I hemorrhages internally. The last thing I remember is a surgeon sprinting at full speed at midnight as I passed out. Lost the tube. Almost died. My gyn records say 2 live births, 1 miscarriage, 1 abortion. OTOH, my Cataholic mother insists surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion. But many Catholic hospitals refused to perform the procedure or prescribe medication to terminate an ectopic pregnancy— even beforeoDobbs. These hospitals compnsider them to be abortions.

It’s a confusing mess.

The ONLY exception in Arkansas is to save the life of the mother.

https://www.abortionfinder.org/abortion-guides-by-state/abortion-in-arkansas

Fetal demise or inevitable death are NOT allowable exceptions. Jesse said the heart had stopped, but she had minimal bleeding and there was no mention of sepsis. She should have had to remain pregnant and trst in God’s plan for her, until she had a spontaneous miscarriage or her life was in imminent danger because of hemorrhage or sepsis. Yep, hosting a dead fetus sucks, BUT THIS IS WHAT SHE AND HER FAMILY VOTED FOR. Arkansas could have broadened the law to make it more compassionate and less dangerous for women, and they decided not to. It’s not one standard for Jesse and another for a black teen carrying a dead fetus.

As my Catholic mother wold say, “offer it up” Not because I’m a monster, but because she should be held to the same standard as every other woman in her state. I think she should be arrested and tried, along with the doctors and he spouse and and parents who helped her procure an abortion. She would never end up in jail, and I don’t think she should. But hopefully, more care would be taken in drafting these laws so that the exceptions are clear and there is a very high burden of proof and women and doctors have some latitude in situations like Jessas.

As one commentator said, she could never have gone that abortion if she want famous. But, that hurts every woman who isn’t famous. Jesse’s ability to bait when her life isn’t in danger makes every other woman in Arkansas think that option would be available for them too.

I’m an Administrative Lawyer who deals with reams of medical records. I used to work for municipal entities. And there have been a lot of articles about how hospital attorneys, physical attorneys, municipal attorney and/or prosecutors are making these life and death decisions. Because there is no guidance as to how close to death a woman needs to be to qualify for an abortion. Jessa adidn’t qualify, when she had her abortion, because she could have waited and had the fetus deliver spontaneously. But if she started bleeding regularly, how much blood loss puts her life in danger. Infection can be treated with antibiotics. How bad does the infection need to be? How sick to we have to let healthy women become before we perform a procedure that’s always was going to need to be done. Right now, Lawyers are making these decisions in many cases because the laws are vague and physicians don’t want to risk jail and losing their license.

If all hell is breaking loose in an emergency situation, you really want Doctor’s standing around, while a lawyer reads the medical records, maybe consults with a colleague, and writes a rationale, to make sure everything is properly documented. Because you need more than a life threatening emergency. You need the tests and imaging and rationale and documentation to be airtight before the procedure. Meanwhile, there is a woman dying.

Thank you for this post. I’m sorry you have firsthand experience with these pregnancy complications, but grateful for your sharing. I hope some forced birthers will read it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you think that the laws passed by states and the determination that women don't have the reproductive rights recognized by Roe weren't a function of religious people declaring that babies have souls at conception, then you're not very perceptive.

I think the laws were based on “increasing the white supply of infants.”

I still can’t believe that was said by a sitting scotus Justice

I hate this timeline

Blame “the moderates.” They voted for this garbage and they’re still both sides-ing stuff.

Get bent. Blame the right-wing. But if you need to blame someone else, go ahead and also blame the people on the left who were too pure for neoliberalism or whatever.

No, I will not “get bent.” And what the heck are you blaming the left for being “too pure for neoliberalism or whatever”? Are you blaming the left for… the GOP lying? The GOP blocking laws? The GOP doing end runs on what people want?, and if you need a contemporary example of that, look no further than Kansas’s forced birth moves despite the forced birth position being soundly defeated at the ballot just last year. What kinds of compromise should women have to make for you to blame the actual guilty parties?

I will blame “the moderates” who consistently vote for the GOP. How they can consider themselves “moderate” when they pretty much vote for the GOP is a topic for another day, but “the moderates” excuse this garbage. Kind of like you’re doing right now. The GOP is not being subtle. They have commit treason, sedition, they advocate for what amounts to censorship and are openly attempting to establish a theocracy and still people - like you? - vote for them because “the people on the left who were too pure.” That tracks. “The moderates” are wreaking havoc on this country. The right wing doesn’t have the numbers without “the moderates.”

THANK YOU great post!
+100000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am happy that she was able to have safe abortion care. If only other women in her state were able to access this lifesaving care.

I doubt this was performed in AR.

If it was, y'all have a lot of explaining to do, bc you insist this is illegal (and... it's not).

Does Arkansas law require the dead fetus to expel on its own, risking sepsis for the mother, or is a D&C allowed to remove a dead fetus?

Yes No D&C allowed unless necessary *to save Mom’s life*. So reducing risk is not enough. Endangering health isn’t enough. Probably saving her life is a few days isn’t enough. Knowing her ife will be in danger isn’t enough. No D&C unless itMom will die unless if it performed. Jessa could have had a complete miscarriage on her own, could have remained stable on antibiotics, etc b

In fact, Arkansas is so strict that it does not allow for abortion to prevent significant damage to another bodily system. So, if the fetus is dead and the mothers kidneys or heart are compromised by continuing to carry the baby. Or she will need a hysterectomy, that’s not enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am happy that she was able to have safe abortion care. If only other women in her state were able to access this lifesaving care.

I doubt this was performed in AR.

If it was, y'all have a lot of explaining to do, bc you insist this is illegal (and... it's not).

Does Arkansas law require the dead fetus to expel on its own, risking sepsis for the mother, or is a D&C allowed to remove a dead fetus?

This article claims that a D&C is legal in Arkansas if the fetus has died.
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/health-care-for-me-but-not-for-thee-a-duggar-had-an-abortion

The question is if providers will do the procedure or if they’re too worried about being accused of providing an illegal abortion.

The article is incorrect in this point there is no exception for a dead fetus under the law. They article does note that in Arkansas, Jessa could not have an abortion if her healthnwas in jeopardy. She would need to wait until it was necessary TJ save her life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A dilation & curettage procedure to remove a miscarried fetus is not an abortion as the baby already died. Removing a live or dead baby using this method is radically different as one kills a human being. This is a common practice after miscarriage that is moral to do.

Miscarriage is what she had.

The medical term for a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. When women have a D&C, it’s because of an incomplete spontaneous abortion. Abortion is outlawed, even if you call it a D&C. And BTW, the teen slut who comes in for an abortion of an unwanted baby also gets a D&C. Words matter.


I had two live births, an early miscarriage that did not require intervention and a an abortion to remove an ectopic pregnancy- where the heart was beating as the tube ruptured and I hemorrhages internally. The last thing I remember is a surgeon sprinting at full speed at midnight as I passed out. Lost the tube. Almost died. My gyn records say 2 live births, 1 miscarriage, 1 abortion. OTOH, my Cataholic mother insists surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion. But many Catholic hospitals refused to perform the procedure or prescribe medication to terminate an ectopic pregnancy— even beforeoDobbs. These hospitals compnsider them to be abortions.

It’s a confusing mess.

The ONLY exception in Arkansas is to save the life of the mother.

https://www.abortionfinder.org/abortion-guides-by-state/abortion-in-arkansas

Fetal demise or inevitable death are NOT allowable exceptions. Jesse said the heart had stopped, but she had minimal bleeding and there was no mention of sepsis. She should have had to remain pregnant and trst in God’s plan for her, until she had a spontaneous miscarriage or her life was in imminent danger because of hemorrhage or sepsis. Yep, hosting a dead fetus sucks, BUT THIS IS WHAT SHE AND HER FAMILY VOTED FOR. Arkansas could have broadened the law to make it more compassionate and less dangerous for women, and they decided not to. It’s not one standard for Jesse and another for a black teen carrying a dead fetus.

As my Catholic mother wold say, “offer it up” Not because I’m a monster, but because she should be held to the same standard as every other woman in her state. I think she should be arrested and tried, along with the doctors and he spouse and and parents who helped her procure an abortion. She would never end up in jail, and I don’t think she should. But hopefully, more care would be taken in drafting these laws so that the exceptions are clear and there is a very high burden of proof and women and doctors have some latitude in situations like Jessas.

As one commentator said, she could never have gone that abortion if she want famous. But, that hurts every woman who isn’t famous. Jesse’s ability to bait when her life isn’t in danger makes every other woman in Arkansas think that option would be available for them too.

I’m an Administrative Lawyer who deals with reams of medical records. I used to work for municipal entities. And there have been a lot of articles about how hospital attorneys, physical attorneys, municipal attorney and/or prosecutors are making these life and death decisions. Because there is no guidance as to how close to death a woman needs to be to qualify for an abortion. Jessa adidn’t qualify, when she had her abortion, because she could have waited and had the fetus deliver spontaneously. But if she started bleeding regularly, how much blood loss puts her life in danger. Infection can be treated with antibiotics. How bad does the infection need to be? How sick to we have to let healthy women become before we perform a procedure that’s always was going to need to be done. Right now, Lawyers are making these decisions in many cases because the laws are vague and physicians don’t want to risk jail and losing their license.

If all hell is breaking loose in an emergency situation, you really want Doctor’s standing around, while a lawyer reads the medical records, maybe consults with a colleague, and writes a rationale, to make sure everything is properly documented. Because you need more than a life threatening emergency. You need the tests and imaging and rationale and documentation to be airtight before the procedure. Meanwhile, there is a woman dying.

Amen to all this. So sorry you had to experience all that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am happy that she was able to have safe abortion care. If only other women in her state were able to access this lifesaving care.

I doubt this was performed in AR.

If it was, y'all have a lot of explaining to do, bc you insist this is illegal (and... it's not).

Does Arkansas law require the dead fetus to expel on its own, risking sepsis for the mother, or is a D&C allowed to remove a dead fetus?

Yes No D&C allowed unless necessary *to save Mom’s life*. So reducing risk is not enough. Endangering health isn’t enough. Probably saving her life is a few days isn’t enough. Knowing her ife will be in danger isn’t enough. No D&C unless itMom will die unless if it performed. Jessa could have had a complete miscarriage on her own, could have remained stable on antibiotics, etc b

In fact, Arkansas is so strict that it does not allow for abortion to prevent significant damage to another bodily system. So, if the fetus is dead and the mothers kidneys or heart are compromised by continuing to carry the baby. Or she will need a hysterectomy, that’s not enough.

+1

Jessa and her malignant family advocated for these forced birther nightmare states and they should be forced to live in them fully. Jail for Jessa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am happy that she was able to have safe abortion care. If only other women in her state were able to access this lifesaving care.

I doubt this was performed in AR.

If it was, y'all have a lot of explaining to do, bc you insist this is illegal (and... it's not).

Does Arkansas law require the dead fetus to expel on its own, risking sepsis for the mother, or is a D&C allowed to remove a dead fetus?

Yes No D&C allowed unless necessary *to save Mom’s life*. So reducing risk is not enough. Endangering health isn’t enough. Probably saving her life is a few days isn’t enough. Knowing her ife will be in danger isn’t enough. No D&C unless itMom will die unless if it performed. Jessa could have had a complete miscarriage on her own, could have remained stable on antibiotics, etc b

In fact, Arkansas is so strict that it does not allow for abortion to prevent significant damage to another bodily system. So, if the fetus is dead and the mothers kidneys or heart are compromised by continuing to carry the baby. Or she will need a hysterectomy, that’s not enough.

+1

Jessa and her malignant family advocated for these forced birther nightmare states and they should be forced to live in them fully. Jail for Jessa.

Join her scumbag brother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am happy that she was able to have safe abortion care. If only other women in her state were able to access this lifesaving care.

I doubt this was performed in AR.

If it was, y'all have a lot of explaining to do, bc you insist this is illegal (and... it's not).

Does Arkansas law require the dead fetus to expel on its own, risking sepsis for the mother, or is a D&C allowed to remove a dead fetus?

This article claims that a D&C is legal in Arkansas if the fetus has died.
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/health-care-for-me-but-not-for-thee-a-duggar-had-an-abortion

The question is if providers will do the procedure or if they’re too worried about being accused of providing an illegal abortion.

The article is incorrect in this point there is no exception for a dead fetus under the law. They article does note that in Arkansas, Jessa could not have an abortion if her healthnwas in jeopardy. She would need to wait until it was necessary TJ save her life.

Do you have a citation for this? Just wondering why the Arkansas Times is incorrect about an Arkansas law.

[Anonymous]

This is an interesting article that explains the complicated understanding of the abortion vs. D&C. Apparently Jessa later explained that the fetus had died 3 weeks before she had the procedure. Also, from a doctor quoted in the article "Even though these procedures for miscarriage care would be legal in states with abortion bans, concerns about legality could also lead to unnecessary delays in patients receiving this care.."

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/jessa-duggar-seewald-spontaneous-abortion-003105624.html

[Anonymous]

PP is incorrect about Arkansas law having no exception for a dead fetus. The text of Arkansas’s Act 180 of 2019 (a trigger law that went into effect last year upon Roe’s being overturned):



5-61-303. Definitions.
As used in this subchapter:
(1)(A) “Abortion” means the act of using, prescribing, administering, procuring, or selling of any instrument, medicine, drug, or any other substance, device, or means with the purpose to terminate the pregnancy of a woman, with knowledge that the termination by any of those means will with reasonable likelihood cause the death of the unborn child.
(B) An act under subdivision (1)(A) of this section is not an abortion if the act is performed with the purpose to:
(i) Save the life or preserve the health of the
unborn child;
(ii) Remove a dead unborn child caused by
spontaneous abortion; or
(iii) Remove an ectopic pregnancy;
(2) "Fertilization" means the fusion of a human spermatozoon
with a human ovum;
(3) “Medical emergency” means a condition in which an abortion is necessary to preserve the life of a pregnant woman whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself; and
(4) “Unborn child” means an individual organism of the species Homo sapiens from fertilization until live birth.


Jessa only said her fetus “didn’t look good.” I don’t know if fetal death was confirmed before her D & C. It’s weird that she used ambiguous language about the baby’s condition, because I would expect her to be very clear on that particular point.


There’s no reason to investigate Jessa, as the law does not allow for women being charged with any crimes as a result of terminating a pregnancy:

(c) This section does not:
(1) Authorize the charging or conviction of a woman with any
criminal offense in the death of her own unborn child



The purpose of the law is to prohibit the performance of abortions. Abortion providers would be the ones in legal jeopardy if they violated this law.

Side note: This law makes no exceptions for pregnancies that result from rape or incest, including the pregnancies of minor children.



Full text of the law:

https://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/Acts/FTPDocument?path=%2FACTS%2F2019R%2FPublic%2F&file=180.pdf&ddBienniumSession=2019%2F2019R

[Anonymous]

Clearly, “abortion” as a legal term is very different from “abortion” as a medical term. “Abortion” could be defined differently from one legislative body to another. Medically, Jessa had an abortion. It appears as though she did not have an abortion according to Arkansas law.

[Anonymous]

Jessa only said her fetus “didn’t look good.” I don’t know if fetal death was confirmed before her D & C. It’s weird that she used ambiguous language about the baby’s condition, because I would expect her to be very clear on that particular point.

Here is what is likely. She went for an ultrasound and the fetus did not look like it was where it should be. She was likely told to come back the following week to see if it had grown. Then, it was likely determined that it had not which means it was not alive.

How do I know? This happened to me. A week after the 2nd ultrasound I had a D&C. So, that is how it could have taken three weeks. Same exact thing happened to a family member years later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am happy that she was able to have safe abortion care. If only other women in her state were able to access this lifesaving care.

I doubt this was performed in AR.

If it was, y'all have a lot of explaining to do, bc you insist this is illegal (and... it's not).

Does Arkansas law require the dead fetus to expel on its own, risking sepsis for the mother, or is a D&C allowed to remove a dead fetus?

Yes No D&C allowed unless necessary *to save Mom’s life*. So reducing risk is not enough. Endangering health isn’t enough. Probably saving her life is a few days isn’t enough. Knowing her ife will be in danger isn’t enough. No D&C unless itMom will die unless if it performed. Jessa could have had a complete miscarriage on her own, could have remained stable on antibiotics, etc b

In fact, Arkansas is so strict that it does not allow for abortion to prevent significant damage to another bodily system. So, if the fetus is dead and the mothers kidneys or heart are compromised by continuing to carry the baby. Or she will need a hysterectomy, that’s not enough.

+1

Jessa and her malignant family advocated for these forced birther nightmare states and they should be forced to live in them fully. Jail for Jessa.

Join her scumbag brother.

I wonder how many of those other kids will end up arrested on in jail. Disgusting. All of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Jessa only said her fetus “didn’t look good.” I don’t know if fetal death was confirmed before her D & C. It’s weird that she used ambiguous language about the baby’s condition, because I would expect her to be very clear on that particular point.

Here is what is likely. She went for an ultrasound and the fetus did not look like it was where it should be. She was likely told to come back the following week to see if it had grown. Then, it was likely determined that it had not which means it was not alive.

How do I know? This happened to me. A week after the 2nd ultrasound I had a D&C. So, that is how it could have taken three weeks. Same exact thing happened to a family member years later.

I’ve had a miscarriage. I totally understand how weeks can pass between fetal demise and the complete evacuation of all products of conception. What I don’t understand is why a quasi celebrity who is a vocal opponent of abortion would choose to talk publicly about having a d&c without mentioning what necessitated it, other than the fact that things didn’t look promising.

I will chalk this up to the fact that she’s grieving the loss and may not be able to say phrases like, “I learned my baby had stopped developing.” If a loss was this raw for me, I wouldn’t be speaking publicly about it yet, but everyone processes grief differently.