What makes a classroom education elite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

It's the peers and the faculty. Real example: DC at an ivy, best friend from high school at a LAC between 20 and 30. Course was a humanities course with a different name, used the same text. Both courses had 12-18 students. LAC course discussed the text readings throughout the semester, covered almost all of the textbook, wrote 3 papers, had great discussions. DC's professor assigned readings such that they finished the entire textbook in the first 6 weeks, spent the rest of the time reading and analyzing primary sources comparing and contrasting the points in the text and reasoning through the details. The depth of discussion was deeper. Papers required were over double the length required at the LAC, the reading per week expected was triple that of the LAC.
For stem: compare and contrast syllabi, p-sets and exams from multivariable calc or organic chem at a regular college vs an elite: it is night and day as far as the pace, depth, breadth and complexity covered. Knowing a professor who has taught at both is helpful. We have an ivy professor in the family. Their insight into students and expectations across different schools (their phd, post docs, guest lecturer and now tenure spot were different places).

A textbook? Or a book book?

Same question here from a history/poli sci major at HYPSM. I don't recall any textbooks. A typical class would have up to 12 books.

+1

That was my experience as well. And, of course, you had the required reading of 12 books plus the additional recommended reading of 20+ books

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oftentimes, you can access course syllabus’s online. Try to find a similar course, like intro micro or macro, and compare course pace, material studied, and course requirements. Generally, the better schools will cover more material overall and more primary material, and require more papers. This reflects the caliber of the students, who can move through the material quickly, unpack material themselves, and make sophisticated written arguments about the material.

Small classes encourage more participation and direct professor involvement. Professors (not graduate students) teach and provide context and sophisticated insights into the material, and sometimes invite esteemed individuals to discuss class-relevant material.

Overall - both faculty and students - are working at a higher level and faster pace because they’re smart, motivated, curious, and want to make a difference in the world.

People at the best schools are not interested in just making a living/money in an ordinary career/job; they want to work on bigger issues on a bigger stage to make a difference in the world. So, another part of the difference is the overall motivation and attitude of everyone on campus, which will impact your student because students tend to look to faculty and peers, among others, for role models.

One hundred percent this. We see it with our two ivy+ kids compared to the one who went to the flagship ranked around 55. Professors who have taught in both envoronments will tell you the same. The culture at the top schools is completely different. You can imagine going to the top of whatever field when you are surrounded by faculty, speakers, and students who have done similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The difference might be the prof at Princeton wrote the textbook they are teaching from. The Penn state is using the textbook written by Princeton prof.

This was my experience—and when you engage with the prof, you get much more nuance and the backstory of what wasn’t included.

In addition, the access to the networks or lab research or studies that professor does. It’s not unusual for a professor to take on one or two undergrads in their labs. And then a rec like that for grad school would open other doors. This was my son’s experience.

Yes. On every T10 tour we did(8 of the top 10), they emphasized any student in any field who wants to research with faculty can, and many of those spots are funded. That has proven to be true at the ivy he picked. It may take a couple of tries but faculty like undergrads and help them get research spots even if they do not have an opening, typically sophomore year. At a top school they are known in their field, know others at peer institutions, and often partner with industry and can connect students there.

[Anonymous]

Classroom is the least important part of US college, especially in the modern Internet era.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oftentimes, you can access course syllabus’s online. Try to find a similar course, like intro micro or macro, and compare course pace, material studied, and course requirements. Generally, the better schools will cover more material overall and more primary material, and require more papers. This reflects the caliber of the students, who can move through the material quickly, unpack material themselves, and make sophisticated written arguments about the material.

Small classes encourage more participation and direct professor involvement. Professors (not graduate students) teach and provide context and sophisticated insights into the material, and sometimes invite esteemed individuals to discuss class-relevant material.

Overall - both faculty and students - are working at a higher level and faster pace because they’re smart, motivated, curious, and want to make a difference in the world.

People at the best schools are not interested in just making a living/money in an ordinary career/job; they want to work on bigger issues on a bigger stage to make a difference in the world. So, another part of the difference is the overall motivation and attitude of everyone on campus, which will impact your student because students tend to look to faculty and peers, among others, for role models.

One hundred percent this. We see it with our two ivy+ kids compared to the one who went to the flagship ranked around 55. Professors who have taught in both envoronments will tell you the same. The culture at the top schools is completely different. You can imagine going to the top of whatever field when you are surrounded by faculty, speakers, and students who have done similar.

Even "mediocre" colleges are full of faculty who have achieved similar or more academically than your kid will, most likely.

Large schools have an upper academic cohort that skips into upper level curses early.

The marketing and kinesiology majors aren't competing with math and physics majors for research opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The difference might be the prof at Princeton wrote the textbook they are teaching from. The Penn state is using the textbook written by Princeton prof.

This was my experience—and when you engage with the prof, you get much more nuance and the backstory of what wasn’t included.

In addition, the access to the networks or lab research or studies that professor does. It’s not unusual for a professor to take on one or two undergrads in their labs. And then a rec like that for grad school would open other doors. This was my son’s experience.

This is silly. First of all, writing the book and forcing kids to pay for it doesn't make it a good book. Second, it's exceedingly rare for the authors of the top books to be teaching that book's class. The best books were written a long time ago. Third, if the book is so bad that the professor needs to supplement their own book, then writing the book is not a sign that the class is good! Fourth, a professor who did NOT write the book gives the class the benefit of an alternative perspective on the material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Classroom is the least important part of US college, especially in the modern Internet era.

The statement above is incorrect.

[Anonymous]

At elite schools, students skip classes, don't engage with the reading, and still get high grades.

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1295942.page

People are straight-up paying for prestige. If the students cared about the classroom experience, they would at an absolute minimum actually attend class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The difference might be the prof at Princeton wrote the textbook they are teaching from. The Penn state is using the textbook written by Princeton prof.

This was my experience—and when you engage with the prof, you get much more nuance and the backstory of what wasn’t included.

In addition, the access to the networks or lab research or studies that professor does. It’s not unusual for a professor to take on one or two undergrads in their labs. And then a rec like that for grad school would open other doors. This was my son’s experience.

This is silly. First of all, writing the book and forcing kids to pay for it doesn't make it a good book. Second, it's exceedingly rare for the authors of the top books to be teaching that book's class. The best books were written a long time ago. Third, if the book is so bad that the professor needs to supplement their own book, then writing the book is not a sign that the class is good! Fourth, a professor who did NOT write the book gives the class the benefit of an alternative perspective on the material.

Tell me you were never taught by a future Nobel laureate without telling me....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The caliber of students, on average, and the cachet of a degree and the network made.

It’s this. Your child is already.ready in the US system, just look at the top 3 kids in the grade. Compare them to the below median kids in the same grade. That’s the difference between Princeton and Penn State.

https://bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/sites.psu.edu/dist/d/114442/files/2025/04/CDS_2024_2025_Erie1.pdf

Penn State

Percent in top tenth of high school graduating class
23%

Percent in top quarter
46%

Percent in top half
78%


There are more raw number of people in top 10% of high school class at Penn State than at Harvard.

https://www.psu.edu/resources/first-year-students/eligibility

Penn State main campus has 75%ile SAT of 1480,
From 35% of studsents

So about 9% of the class has SAT 1480+. The class itelf is as big has 5.5 Princetons, giving half a Princeton's worth of 1480+ SAT at Penn State main campus.

The existence of nearby other students with lower academic achievement doesn't make the opportunity for higher achieving students lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The difference might be the prof at Princeton wrote the textbook they are teaching from. The Penn state is using the textbook written by Princeton prof.

This was my experience—and when you engage with the prof, you get much more nuance and the backstory of what wasn’t included.

In addition, the access to the networks or lab research or studies that professor does. It’s not unusual for a professor to take on one or two undergrads in their labs. And then a rec like that for grad school would open other doors. This was my son’s experience.

This is silly. First of all, writing the book and forcing kids to pay for it doesn't make it a good book. Second, it's exceedingly rare for the authors of the top books to be teaching that book's class. The best books were written a long time ago. Third, if the book is so bad that the professor needs to supplement their own book, then writing the book is not a sign that the class is good! Fourth, a professor who did NOT write the book gives the class the benefit of an alternative perspective on the material.

Tell me you were never taught by a future Nobel laureate without telling me....

Nobel Laureates like 2025 Physics winner and UCSB professor John Martinis?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Martinis

Your idiocy is astounding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

In answer to your specific question highlighted above, it is the caliber of students and the expectations of the professors that differentiate the classroom experiences among colleges and universities.

For caliber of students, the US News college/university rankings is an excellent resource.

Nevertheless, an intelligent, motivated, hard-working student can get a solid education at hundreds of colleges and universities in the USA. But, just like athletics, one typically maximizes his/her potential by competing with/working alongside the best students.

Among universities, many public (state supported) universities offer honors colleges and honors classes to the top incoming students. Elite private universities often offer small class sizes full of talented students who are hard-working achievers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The difference might be the prof at Princeton wrote the textbook they are teaching from. The Penn state is using the textbook written by Princeton prof.

This was my experience—and when you engage with the prof, you get much more nuance and the backstory of what wasn’t included.

In addition, the access to the networks or lab research or studies that professor does. It’s not unusual for a professor to take on one or two undergrads in their labs. And then a rec like that for grad school would open other doors. This was my son’s experience.

Yes. On every T10 tour we did(8 of the top 10), they emphasized any student in any field who wants to research with faculty can, and many of those spots are funded. That has proven to be true at the ivy he picked. It may take a couple of tries but faculty like undergrads and help them get research spots even if they do not have an opening, typically sophomore year. At a top school they are known in their field, know others at peer institutions, and often partner with industry and can connect students there.

Fiction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

In answer to your specific question highlighted above, it is the caliber of students and the expectations of the professors that differentiate the classroom experiences among colleges and universities.

For caliber of students, the US News college/university rankings is an excellent resource.

Nevertheless, an intelligent, motivated, hard-working student can get a solid education at hundreds of colleges and universities in the USA. But, just like athletics, one typically maximizes his/her potential by competing with/working alongside the best students.

Among universities, many public (state supported) universities offer honors colleges and honors classes to the top incoming students. Elite private universities often offer small class sizes full of talented students who are hard-working achievers.

Continuing:

Some prefer small, intimate learning environments found at LACs, while others prefer the greater number of opportunities and options found at larger schools (National Universities). Schools with larger enrollments provide a more options and greater diversity with respect to perspectives, courses, majors, research opportunities, and social opportunities which some find to be invigorating while others may find it to be a bit overwhelming during their first year. Smaller schools typically make the transition from high school to college easier than the transition to a large university.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

In answer to your specific question highlighted above, it is the caliber of students and the expectations of the professors that differentiate the classroom experiences among colleges and universities.

For caliber of students, the US News college/university rankings is an excellent resource.

Nevertheless, an intelligent, motivated, hard-working student can get a solid education at hundreds of colleges and universities in the USA. But, just like athletics, one typically maximizes his/her potential by competing with/working alongside the best students.

Among universities, many public (state supported) universities offer honors colleges and honors classes to the top incoming students. Elite private universities often offer small class sizes full of talented students who are hard-working achievers.

This isn’t true. Athletes maximize their potential by attending the best program where they will be a starter. Sitting on the bench for four years at an overcrowded elite program isn’t all that helpful for anyone, in athletics or academics.