Lucy Calkins alarmists

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you're referring to the Writing Workshop, that is generally considered good. Of course we all now know her reading curriculum was garbage and did considerable harm.

Disagree. Teacher admitted privately that with Writers Workshop she was forbidden to even mark corrections for spelling or grammar on students submissions, unlike the previous curriculum. She said all the teachers had been told it was not allowed because it would prevent their 2nd graders from "thinking big thoughts".

She suggested privately that we help our DC with explicit spelling and grammar instruction at home. At least at that school, grammar and spelling was not corrected until after WW ended at the very end of 3rd grade. We were grateful for the tip, which was provided only after we politely had asked direct questions why DD's work was not being corrected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

The issue is that phonics isn't the only thing wrong with the curriculum. It is all based on theory that kids will teach themselves because everyone is intrinsically a reader, which is total nonsense. You can't do a short phonics lesson, hand a kid a book, and expect them to teach themselves to read. It's awful, even with a phonics add on.

Different kids need different things. But no one can get anything different so everyone must get the same thing so no one will get what they need.

They've done studies. Something like 5-10% of kids can learn to read using LC. I'm sure a few more can make progress with some additional phonics. But the curriculum still assumes kids teach themselves, and that is a recipe for failure for most kids.

5%???

What about kids who are already readers? Will writing workshop work for strong readers?

There are a few kids who are innate writers, so it's fine for them but those are the kids who could write well using any curriculum. For everyone else, the writer's workshop curriculum doesn't teach how to write, but expects kids to figure out how to write on their own. Very few can do this so kids who use the LC writing curriculum end up terrible writers. Our middle school has even adapted its whole language arts curriculum to remediate for the gaps caused by this curriculum. It's that bad.

This. Been there and our kids suffered severely from WW.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

The issue is that phonics isn't the only thing wrong with the curriculum. It is all based on theory that kids will teach themselves because everyone is intrinsically a reader, which is total nonsense. You can't do a short phonics lesson, hand a kid a book, and expect them to teach themselves to read. It's awful, even with a phonics add on.

Different kids need different things. But no one can get anything different so everyone must get the same thing so no one will get what they need.

They've done studies. Something like 5-10% of kids can learn to read using LC. I'm sure a few more can make progress with some additional phonics. But the curriculum still assumes kids teach themselves, and that is a recipe for failure for most kids.

More parent used to read to their kids and teach them at home. Expecting school to teach your kid to read is a recipe for failure for most kids.

LC was so so bad. I knew so many parents panicking and hiring tutors when their kids weren't learning ot reading using LC. I have also seen huge improvements in learning when schools after dropped it. The writing coming home now with my 3rd grader is so much stronger than anything my older daughter ever wrote with LC. It's really night and day. Don't make excuses for it.

What kind of writing did you see brought home at the beginning of 3rd? Asking because I have one in 2nd right now who has brought home maybe 3 pieces of written work all year. The handwriting, spelling, and writing is just really bad. But maybe my expectations are too high for an 8 year old b

My third grader is writing 1-2 full pages per day at school. This week they're doing a space unit. She wrote a factual essay about Venus, a two-page paper comparing and contrasting the inner and outer planets, a creative piece inventing her own planet using vocabulary she's learned about planets, and a creative writing assignment where NASA calling her and asking her to go into space. She's also working on a persuasive essay to convince other kids to read her favorite book.

What kind of school is this?

Public school. CKLA curriculum.

CKLA is very good - Science of Reading - Phonics front and center. I wish our public schools used CKLA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

Only slightly changed - Phonics in name only. Not actually fixed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

The issue is that phonics isn't the only thing wrong with the curriculum. It is all based on theory that kids will teach themselves because everyone is intrinsically a reader, which is total nonsense. You can't do a short phonics lesson, hand a kid a book, and expect them to teach themselves to read. It's awful, even with a phonics add on.

Different kids need different things. But no one can get anything different so everyone must get the same thing so no one will get what they need.

They've done studies. Something like 5-10% of kids can learn to read using LC. I'm sure a few more can make progress with some additional phonics. But the curriculum still assumes kids teach themselves, and that is a recipe for failure for most kids.

More parent used to read to their kids and teach them at home. Expecting school to teach your kid to read is a recipe for failure for most kids.

LC was so so bad. I knew so many parents panicking and hiring tutors when their kids weren't learning ot reading using LC. I have also seen huge improvements in learning when schools after dropped it. The writing coming home now with my 3rd grader is so much stronger than anything my older daughter ever wrote with LC. It's really night and day. Don't make excuses for it.

What kind of writing did you see brought home at the beginning of 3rd? Asking because I have one in 2nd right now who has brought home maybe 3 pieces of written work all year. The handwriting, spelling, and writing is just really bad. But maybe my expectations are too high for an 8 year old b

My third grader is writing 1-2 full pages per day at school. This week they're doing a space unit. She wrote a factual essay about Venus, a two-page paper comparing and contrasting the inner and outer planets, a creative piece inventing her own planet using vocabulary she's learned about planets, and a creative writing assignment where NASA calling her and asking her to go into space. She's also working on a persuasive essay to convince other kids to read her favorite book.

What kind of school is this?

Public school. CKLA curriculum.

CKLA is very good - Science of Reading - Phonics front and center. I wish our public schools used CKLA.

I withheld judgment until I saw it in action but we're a few years in and I'm super impressed with the work product my kids are bringing home. Their reading and writing has improved a ton over the LC work product. And they absolutely love the CKLA units. They are so engaged and dig in even more at home. My 8 yo loved her creative writing prompt from this week so much that she spent all day today expanding it to "write a novel." She's written pages and pages. It so fun to see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our school has our students write an essay on "something they know." Every year. So every year, my kid pulled out the same old garbage about ponies that they learned in first grade. The handwriting got a bit better, the sentences a bit longer - but the idea that if you let kids just write whatever garbage they settle on is completely absurd. Lucy Calkins believes that if kids are writing about something they know or like, the words will just flow out of them like Shakespeare ...

The only reason a kid would revert back to ponies from the first grade is she hates writing or can’t think of anything. For those kids the teacher needs to step in and help. Some kids will write impressive essays, some mediocre, some will have difficulty. It’s what they do to assist the kids with improving their writing.

[Anonymous]

My kid is one of those naturally gifted readers and writers who just "gets it." And I hated that he spent his first two years at a LC workshop school. Just absolute garbage.

His writing improved by leaps and bounds this year, now that we're at a CKLA school. His reading was always exceptionally good (because we did phonics at home), but his writing was a struggle. Now he writes constantly. He hated the workshop model he's a perfectionist who gets really frustrated when he knows he's spelling a word incorrectly but his teacher wouldn't help him figure out the correct way to spell it. Now he's encouraged to look up words and ask for confirmation in order to spell it right. He's so much happier, and his writing is so much better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

The issue is that phonics isn't the only thing wrong with the curriculum. It is all based on theory that kids will teach themselves because everyone is intrinsically a reader, which is total nonsense. You can't do a short phonics lesson, hand a kid a book, and expect them to teach themselves to read. It's awful, even with a phonics add on.

Different kids need different things. But no one can get anything different so everyone must get the same thing so no one will get what they need.

They've done studies. Something like 5-10% of kids can learn to read using LC. I'm sure a few more can make progress with some additional phonics. But the curriculum still assumes kids teach themselves, and that is a recipe for failure for most kids.

More parent used to read to their kids and teach them at home. Expecting school to teach your kid to read is a recipe for failure for most kids.

I expect schools to teach my kids to read and they have. I don’t know why you think parents stopped reading to their kids. My kids went to preschool and i read to them from day one, went to libraries, book stores, puzzles, games, they were prepared for school. Kids don’t teach themselves on their own. They are surrounded by the written language since they were born. Schools start formal reading.

Some kids have dyslexia and will need extra help, probably in all subjects. Other forms of learning disabilities will also require specialized help beyond classroom work. Phonics is the best way for schools to teach early reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're referring to the Writing Workshop, that is generally considered good. Of course we all now know her reading curriculum was garbage and did considerable harm.

Disagree. Teacher admitted privately that with Writers Workshop she was forbidden to even mark corrections for spelling or grammar on students submissions, unlike the previous curriculum. She said all the teachers had been told it was not allowed because it would prevent their 2nd graders from "thinking big thoughts".

She suggested privately that we help our DC with explicit spelling and grammar instruction at home. At least at that school, grammar and spelling was not corrected until after WW ended at the very end of 3rd grade. We were grateful for the tip, which was provided only after we politely had asked direct questions why DD's work was not being corrected.

This - my one daughter had an LC curriculum - she doesn't trust her spelling and is embarrassed when she writes because she knows her grammar and spelling is not good. They insisted it would come as she wrote and read more. She's a sophomore in high school and we are still waiting (I mean, I've tried but it's a sore point with her). Her 4 siblings did NOT have LC and all write and spell perfectly well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

The issue is that phonics isn't the only thing wrong with the curriculum. It is all based on theory that kids will teach themselves because everyone is intrinsically a reader, which is total nonsense. You can't do a short phonics lesson, hand a kid a book, and expect them to teach themselves to read. It's awful, even with a phonics add on.

Different kids need different things. But no one can get anything different so everyone must get the same thing so no one will get what they need.

They've done studies. Something like 5-10% of kids can learn to read using LC. I'm sure a few more can make progress with some additional phonics. But the curriculum still assumes kids teach themselves, and that is a recipe for failure for most kids.

More parent used to read to their kids and teach them at home. Expecting school to teach your kid to read is a recipe for failure for most kids.

I expect schools to teach my kids to read and they have. I don’t know why you think parents stopped reading to their kids. My kids went to preschool and i read to them from day one, went to libraries, book stores, puzzles, games, they were prepared for school. Kids don’t teach themselves on their own. They are surrounded by the written language since they were born. Schools start formal reading.

Some kids have dyslexia and will need extra help, probably in all subjects. Other forms of learning disabilities will also require specialized help beyond classroom work. Phonics is the best way for schools to teach early reading.

1. Reading to your kids is nice but proven to have zero effect on their reading and writing ability.
2. Schools were invented to teach kids because parents could not - because they either didn't know or were busy working. That hasn't changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is one of those naturally gifted readers and writers who just "gets it." And I hated that he spent his first two years at a LC workshop school. Just absolute garbage.

His writing improved by leaps and bounds this year, now that we're at a CKLA school. His reading was always exceptionally good (because we did phonics at home), but his writing was a struggle. Now he writes constantly. He hated the workshop model he's a perfectionist who gets really frustrated when he knows he's spelling a word incorrectly but his teacher wouldn't help him figure out the correct way to spell it. Now he's encouraged to look up words and ask for confirmation in order to spell it right. He's so much happier, and his writing is so much better.

He’s not a naturally gifted writer if he struggled with LC Workshop. That works best with kids where writing is second nature to them and content is everything. Spelling and structure will come later.

Your son needed a different way of teaching, more structured. The program where your child is thriving uses very explicit instructions in a very systematic way. CKLA makes more sense. LC is tough for most kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're referring to the Writing Workshop, that is generally considered good. Of course we all now know her reading curriculum was garbage and did considerable harm.

Disagree. Teacher admitted privately that with Writers Workshop she was forbidden to even mark corrections for spelling or grammar on students submissions, unlike the previous curriculum. She said all the teachers had been told it was not allowed because it would prevent their 2nd graders from "thinking big thoughts".

She suggested privately that we help our DC with explicit spelling and grammar instruction at home. At least at that school, grammar and spelling was not corrected until after WW ended at the very end of 3rd grade. We were grateful for the tip, which was provided only after we politely had asked direct questions why DD's work was not being corrected.

I don’t think it’s a big deal that spelling and grammar aren’t the main focus until 3rd grade. Future bureaucrats might not need to “think big thoughts” but to emphasize putting thoughts on paper at this very early age over spelling is not a big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

The issue is that phonics isn't the only thing wrong with the curriculum. It is all based on theory that kids will teach themselves because everyone is intrinsically a reader, which is total nonsense. You can't do a short phonics lesson, hand a kid a book, and expect them to teach themselves to read. It's awful, even with a phonics add on.

Different kids need different things. But no one can get anything different so everyone must get the same thing so no one will get what they need.

They've done studies. Something like 5-10% of kids can learn to read using LC. I'm sure a few more can make progress with some additional phonics. But the curriculum still assumes kids teach themselves, and that is a recipe for failure for most kids.

More parent used to read to their kids and teach them at home. Expecting school to teach your kid to read is a recipe for failure for most kids.

I expect schools to teach my kids to read and they have. I don’t know why you think parents stopped reading to their kids. My kids went to preschool and i read to them from day one, went to libraries, book stores, puzzles, games, they were prepared for school. Kids don’t teach themselves on their own. They are surrounded by the written language since they were born. Schools start formal reading.

Some kids have dyslexia and will need extra help, probably in all subjects. Other forms of learning disabilities will also require specialized help beyond classroom work. Phonics is the best way for schools to teach early reading.

1. Reading to your kids is nice but proven to have zero effect on their reading and writing ability.
2. Schools were invented to teach kids because parents could not - because they either didn't know or were busy working. That hasn't changed.

+1 seriously, my mom did not speak much English when I was learning to read and certainly didn't teach me. There was zero expectation that she should teach me to read. She also didn't really read to me. My DH had a similar situation growing up

Schools exist in large part to teach kids to read. The notion that if kids don't learn it is because they have bad parents is gross and probably a little bit racist since we all know which parents some of y'all have in mind. Stop blaming the parents when you fail at the basic thing you are paid to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The important piece is that the youngest children (K-2) are also having phonics-based instruction. I heard Lucy Calkins adapted her curriculum to include phonics - is that accurate?

The issue is that phonics isn't the only thing wrong with the curriculum. It is all based on theory that kids will teach themselves because everyone is intrinsically a reader, which is total nonsense. You can't do a short phonics lesson, hand a kid a book, and expect them to teach themselves to read. It's awful, even with a phonics add on.

Different kids need different things. But no one can get anything different so everyone must get the same thing so no one will get what they need.

They've done studies. Something like 5-10% of kids can learn to read using LC. I'm sure a few more can make progress with some additional phonics. But the curriculum still assumes kids teach themselves, and that is a recipe for failure for most kids.

More parent used to read to their kids and teach them at home. Expecting school to teach your kid to read is a recipe for failure for most kids.

I expect schools to teach my kids to read and they have. I don’t know why you think parents stopped reading to their kids. My kids went to preschool and i read to them from day one, went to libraries, book stores, puzzles, games, they were prepared for school. Kids don’t teach themselves on their own. They are surrounded by the written language since they were born. Schools start formal reading.

Some kids have dyslexia and will need extra help, probably in all subjects. Other forms of learning disabilities will also require specialized help beyond classroom work. Phonics is the best way for schools to teach early reading.

1. Reading to your kids is nice but proven to have zero effect on their reading and writing ability.
2. Schools were invented to teach kids because parents could not - because they either didn't know or were busy working. That hasn't changed.

+1 seriously, my mom did not speak much English when I was learning to read and certainly didn't teach me. There was zero expectation that she should teach me to read. She also didn't really read to me. My DH had a similar situation growing up

Schools exist in large part to teach kids to read. The notion that if kids don't learn it is because they have bad parents is gross and probably a little bit racist since we all know which parents some of y'all have in mind. Stop blaming the parents when you fail at the basic thing you are paid to do.

DP. I fully expect schools to teach children to read and to do math. I do not trust my school system to do either, so we supplement if we see gaps. The big losers unfortunately when gaps appear in the school instruction are the kids whose parents cannot supplement, either due to lack of time, money, or both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're referring to the Writing Workshop, that is generally considered good. Of course we all now know her reading curriculum was garbage and did considerable harm.

Disagree. Teacher admitted privately that with Writers Workshop she was forbidden to even mark corrections for spelling or grammar on students submissions, unlike the previous curriculum. She said all the teachers had been told it was not allowed because it would prevent their 2nd graders from "thinking big thoughts".

She suggested privately that we help our DC with explicit spelling and grammar instruction at home. At least at that school, grammar and spelling was not corrected until after WW ended at the very end of 3rd grade. We were grateful for the tip, which was provided only after we politely had asked direct questions why DD's work was not being corrected.

I don’t think it’s a big deal that spelling and grammar aren’t the main focus until 3rd grade. Future bureaucrats might not need to “think big thoughts” but to emphasize putting thoughts on paper at this very early age over spelling is not a big deal.

Putting "big thoughts" on paper is easier when you've been taught to write. It's much harder if you give a kid a pencil and expect them to teach themselves. LC lacks more than just spelling and grammar rules. LC doesn't teach kids to sort or organize their thoughts or information. It's all stream of consciousness and it doesn't include any teaching. Without instruction, kids' writing doesn't improve. They continue to write terrible, unclear drivel with no improvement year after year.

My own daughter found it so overwhelming to be told to write without being taught how, she'd just sit and stare at her paper. She brought home a lot of blank pages or pages with only one sentence--her teachers just said she'd write when she was ready. She's a smart kid and has grown so much with a knowledge-based curriculum and instruction. LC is rubbish.