High schoolers can’t write

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have a DS in public and DD in private, and the difference in writing instruction is very noticeable. Private emphasizes grammar/sentence structure and has kids writing a lot, whereas there's been next to no instruction and very short writing assignments for DS. They are a grade apart, but if you compare writing samples, you'd guess they are three or more grades apart. You could argue that our DS is just not as good a writer as DD, and his poor writing is not due to a lack of instruction in MCPS, but both kids read a ton, and DS is a straight-A student. When I see what type of work receives an A for DS, it's honestly shocking.

FWIW I don't think this is just an MCPS issue. This is 2024 issue and fewer people are really teaching writing. It's frightening how many people don't understand the seriousness of that and are content to say "oh well, they will just use AI" or something similar.

I’m an English teacher who transitioned to working in a private school. It’s night and day. I have fewer students and more planning time, so I’m able to intentionally focus on writing instruction. My students write, get feedback, and revise frequently. The school prioritizes writing instruction, so English teachers are placed in a position to provide it.

I didn’t receive that support in public, where I had twice as many students and about 30 minutes a day to myself to grade.

No, it is absolutely not fair.

[Anonymous]

Two different problems being discussed here.

1. Grammar and spelling. Assuming no learning disabilities, that can be refined by reading and by holding to standards. Spelling tests don't improve spelling, and neither does "studying" vocabulary if you don't study prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and roots. Having a kid read what they wrote out loud and summarize it, then fix it, also helps, but it has to be done repeatedly over a long time.

2. Argumentative writing, which is essentially what most academic writing is: using evidence to support theses and sub-points. That will not usually be picked up or refined by reading because most kids don't read that kind of writing outside of assignments. But argumentative writing can be taught as a series of formulas on which you improvise and create as you become more fluid at it, hence the 5P essay (which should, however, be a late-elementary into MS thing, not a HS one).

Reading does not convert into writing. Practice does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two different problems being discussed here.

1. Grammar and spelling. Assuming no learning disabilities, that can be refined by reading and by holding to standards. Spelling tests don't improve spelling, and neither does "studying" vocabulary if you don't study prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and roots. Having a kid read what they wrote out loud and summarize it, then fix it, also helps, but it has to be done repeatedly over a long time.

2. Argumentative writing, which is essentially what most academic writing is: using evidence to support theses and sub-points. That will not usually be picked up or refined by reading because most kids don't read that kind of writing outside of assignments. But argumentative writing can be taught as a series of formulas on which you improvise and create as you become more fluid at it, hence the 5P essay (which should, however, be a late-elementary into MS thing, not a HS one).

Reading does not convert into writing. Practice does.

I went to private school. Students had a spelling/vocabulary text book that included grammar starting in 1st grade. And we had homework using that book every night. By 6th grade we had a formal grammar textbook and diagrammed sentences.

Additionally, we read literature…not the ridiculous benchmark nonsense. And we had writing assignments everyday.

Plus: they taught us how to memorize, study for tests, and research and draft lengthy reports.

FTR, private school kids aren’t special; anyone can learn if schools actually teach the proper skills.

[Anonymous]

This was one on the man reasons I moved my child to Catholic school in 6th grade. After taking the placement test in his new school, he asked, “A verb is a person or place, right?” Gulp. Thankfully the school was used to getting clueless public school transfer kids.

He’s in college now and tutors other students at the writing lab. He tells me how terrible the writing is when students come in. No idea how to construct a paragraph, what a thesis is, etc. Many have never written papers longer than a page or two let alone a research paper. Some can’t even construct a sentence because they still hang onto the idea that a sentence simply has a capital letter at the beginning and punctuation at the end. They don’t know that a sentence requires a subject and a predicate.

[Anonymous]

AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.

Lol

That’s waaaaaaaaay too late.

Why not start in elementary school…like the Catholics do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.

I’m the teacher who posted above. IB English is also great for writing instruction. 3 of the 4 major assessments are essay-based, so teachers spend a lot of class time looking at strong writing samples and having students compose their own. (The 4th assessment is an oral component.)

The problem is students often aren’t prepared for AP or IB work at the start of 11th grade. The IB middle years program is one way to counteract this, but most schools don’t have it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.

I’m the teacher who posted above. IB English is also great for writing instruction. 3 of the 4 major assessments are essay-based, so teachers spend a lot of class time looking at strong writing samples and having students compose their own. (The 4th assessment is an oral component.)

The problem is students often aren’t prepared for AP or IB work at the start of 11th grade. The IB middle years program is one way to counteract this, but most schools don’t have it.

“But most schools don’t have it”

^^^
Ding! Ding! Ding!

Mcps erroneously believes creating an educational system where only a select few have access to what should be the curriculum for all students makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They should just learn how to use chatgpt

How does one pronounce that?

[Anonymous]

We did foreign language immersion for ES but then switched to Catholic school. So grateful. Reading reading reading is the way to learn writing. And no phones allowed in class!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.

Lol

That’s waaaaaaaaay too late.

Why not start in elementary school…like the Catholics do?

Not only Catholics. Every decent private school teaches writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS does not teach grammar, spelling, and writing skills depending on the teacher. Only a few give feedback and help kids improve. You need to pay attention as a parent and help your kids.

Last year, my DD asked the teacher if she could provide feedback, and she said that the ways she does it is through the rubric. No individualized feedback. Not even a sentence that says "good job with X but needs work on Y"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How can it be you are just noticing it now? Thats what shocking to me? We worked with our kids in ES and MS to make sure they could write well.

This really is the school’s primary job. Really. Your point fails because there are plenty of parents who are not able to help identify, much less correct writing deficiencies for a variety of reasons.

Ultimately it’s the parents job to ensure their kids get an educated. If you wait for mcps it will never happen.

[Anonymous]

When would they have time to provide feedback? 120+ students and one planning period per day. They have to prioritize planning so grading is done on their own time. They are required to use the rubric so that's what they use.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Lang and AP Lit are the English classes where students are held to higher standards of writing. Unfortunately they don't come until 11th and 12 th grades.

I’m the teacher who posted above. IB English is also great for writing instruction. 3 of the 4 major assessments are essay-based, so teachers spend a lot of class time looking at strong writing samples and having students compose their own. (The 4th assessment is an oral component.)

The problem is students often aren’t prepared for AP or IB work at the start of 11th grade. The IB middle years program is one way to counteract this, but most schools don’t have it.

Do you recommend IB over AP for writing? Our school offers both....