cutoff scores for Fairfax County GT centers for this year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

This attitude, which has now started to pervade this previously useful thread, is so disheartening. Why does it have to be a competition in SECOND GRADE? I'm not naive; I realize competition is a part of life and unfortunately it starts early. But I really do believe that one of the things that makes our schools (or at least my children's school) so wonderful is the cooperative learning environment and the way that parents (again, maybe just at my school) try to support the school and every child in it. I hate to read these posts because I fear some of you are passing these attitudes on to your children, teaching them that they are superior to others simply because of a test score.

Our schools have become so watered down that our kids won't be able to compete against german, Korean, and Chinese children who live and learn in a meritocracy.

[Anonymous]

So why are you participating in this forum? I guess you have given up on FCPS. There are a number of private schools that have excellent credentials. They may also give you an international diploma and after you pass a test, they will declare you a certified meritrocrat. True meritrocracy is when you give the kids from the inner city a fair chance to compete against the elite kids Ibecause of the quality of schools we have not because of anything else) of our county. It is not achieved through a cutoff in a test. Think about it.

[Anonymous]

Immediately PP - the undertones of your message were disturbing. In any event, smart is just plain smart. There may be a part of the population that can be pushed to achieve more academically, but the upper tier? They will get there no matter what. It is with them from birth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

This attitude, which has now started to pervade this previously useful thread, is so disheartening. Why does it have to be a competition in SECOND GRADE? I'm not naive; I realize competition is a part of life and unfortunately it starts early. But I really do believe that one of the things that makes our schools (or at least my children's school) so wonderful is the cooperative learning environment and the way that parents (again, maybe just at my school) try to support the school and every child in it. I hate to read these posts because I fear some of you are passing these attitudes on to your children, teaching them that they are superior to others simply because of a test score.

Our schools have become so watered down that our kids won't be able to compete against german, Korean, and Chinese children who live and learn in a meritocracy.

German schools don't work that way at all, not in the early years. In fact, they don't even get grades until 3rd year, and they only go to school until 12:30. They add on a couple of days in 3rd grade, and it stays that way until around 6th grade. I'm German, and my kids go to the German School DC. It's not a "meritocracy" until much later. The German system has it's definite flaws (they all do), but it appears to be working better (at least for my kids) than the others. They're bilingual, and independent testing has shown they're performing above grade level in mathematics and English reading comprehension/writing. Can't really test the German outside of the school that easily, but they appear to be doing fine, and they're native speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

This attitude, which has now started to pervade this previously useful thread, is so disheartening. Why does it have to be a competition in SECOND GRADE? I'm not naive; I realize competition is a part of life and unfortunately it starts early. But I really do believe that one of the things that makes our schools (or at least my children's school) so wonderful is the cooperative learning environment and the way that parents (again, maybe just at my school) try to support the school and every child in it. I hate to read these posts because I fear some of you are passing these attitudes on to your children, teaching them that they are superior to others simply because of a test score.

Having attended what would be termed a elite university in the US and studied abroad on very competitive fellowship in England (you know the name), our education system is weakened by this attitude that insulates kids from competition early on. Kids at the second grade are ready for challenges and testing the boudnaries of their abilities. I don't disagree the cooperatation is important, my point is that expanding elite programs for children that simply don't belong in them is not in the best interests of the child. In many cases, its more about the parents who want to brag that their child is attending a GT Center, somehow validating the parents' (not the child's) success, instead of what's best for the child. This is a general statement and there are certainly exceptions.

For example, take a look at Germany, kids there are told in 4/5 grade whether they're on the university track, skilled labor, or middle of the road. In the U.S. we delay this until university. No doubt, I push my kids to deliver and get results versus making excuses for them and hiring experts to make a case for why they were sick or the test was somehow flawed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

German schools don't work that way at all, not in the early years. In fact, they don't even get grades until 3rd year, and they only go to school until 12:30. They add on a couple of days in 3rd grade, and it stays that way until around 6th grade. I'm German, and my kids go to the German School DC. It's not a "meritocracy" until much later. The German system has it's definite flaws (they all do), but it appears to be working better (at least for my kids) than the others. They're bilingual, and independent testing has shown they're performing above grade level in mathematics and English reading comprehension/writing. Can't really test the German outside of the school that easily, but they appear to be doing fine, and they're native speakers.

This is simply not true. Having attend a German Gymnasium (in Germany), nothing could be further from the truth. There is huge competition to push kids at soon as they begin school and its serious business. German don't play this game of making exceptions, you're either in or out and that's that. We may view this as brutal but its the reality or a system that produces some of thetop minds in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

German schools don't work that way at all, not in the early years. In fact, they don't even get grades until 3rd year, and they only go to school until 12:30. They add on a couple of days in 3rd grade, and it stays that way until around 6th grade. I'm German, and my kids go to the German School DC. It's not a "meritocracy" until much later. The German system has it's definite flaws (they all do), but it appears to be working better (at least for my kids) than the others. They're bilingual, and independent testing has shown they're performing above grade level in mathematics and English reading comprehension/writing. Can't really test the German outside of the school that easily, but they appear to be doing fine, and they're native speakers.

This is simply not true. Having attend a German Gymnasium (in Germany), nothing could be further from the truth. There is huge competition to push kids at soon as they begin school and its serious business. German don't play this game of making exceptions, you're either in or out and that's that. We may view this as brutal but its the reality or a system that produces some of thetop minds in the world.

I disagree. It is well known in many parts of Germany that parents can push their kids into gymnasium (unless, of course, they are of Turkish descent).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

German schools don't work that way at all, not in the early years. In fact, they don't even get grades until 3rd year, and they only go to school until 12:30. They add on a couple of days in 3rd grade, and it stays that way until around 6th grade. I'm German, and my kids go to the German School DC. It's not a "meritocracy" until much later. The German system has it's definite flaws (they all do), but it appears to be working better (at least for my kids) than the others. They're bilingual, and independent testing has shown they're performing above grade level in mathematics and English reading comprehension/writing. Can't really test the German outside of the school that easily, but they appear to be doing fine, and they're native speakers.

This is simply not true. Having attend a German Gymnasium (in Germany), nothing could be further from the truth. There is huge competition to push kids at soon as they begin school and its serious business. German don't play this game of making exceptions, you're either in or out and that's that. We may view this as brutal but its the reality or a system that produces some of thetop minds in the world.

Which part isn't true? That my kids are bilingual? That they attend the German school here? That I'm German? Perhaps you could be a bit more clear in your statements so that I could use some sort of logic to refute them, or perhaps even agree with whatever point you are trying to make. If all you attended was Gymansium, how would you know what it's like in the Elementary school? And by the way, it varies by state in Germany whether it is the parent's decision, or the teacher's decision to put you on the Gymnasium track. It used to be solely the decision of the schools, 4th grade in West Germany, 6th Grade in Berlin (where I'm from).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

German schools don't work that way at all, not in the early years. In fact, they don't even get grades until 3rd year, and they only go to school until 12:30. They add on a couple of days in 3rd grade, and it stays that way until around 6th grade. I'm German, and my kids go to the German School DC. It's not a "meritocracy" until much later. The German system has it's definite flaws (they all do), but it appears to be working better (at least for my kids) than the others. They're bilingual, and independent testing has shown they're performing above grade level in mathematics and English reading comprehension/writing. Can't really test the German outside of the school that easily, but they appear to be doing fine, and they're native speakers.

This is simply not true. Having attend a German Gymnasium (in Germany), nothing could be further from the truth. There is huge competition to push kids at soon as they begin school and its serious business. German don't play this game of making exceptions, you're either in or out and that's that. We may view this as brutal but its the reality or a system that produces some of thetop minds in the world.

I disagree. It is well known in many parts of Germany that parents can push their kids into gymnasium (unless, of course, they are of Turkish descent).

That part is sad, but true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It will make it that much easier for him when he competes against these children!

This attitude, which has now started to pervade this previously useful thread, is so disheartening. Why does it have to be a competition in SECOND GRADE? I'm not naive; I realize competition is a part of life and unfortunately it starts early. But I really do believe that one of the things that makes our schools (or at least my children's school) so wonderful is the cooperative learning environment and the way that parents (again, maybe just at my school) try to support the school and every child in it. I hate to read these posts because I fear some of you are passing these attitudes on to your children, teaching them that they are superior to others simply because of a test score.

Having attended what would be termed a elite university in the US and studied abroad on very competitive fellowship in England (you know the name), our education system is weakened by this attitude that insulates kids from competition early on. Kids at the second grade are ready for challenges and testing the boudnaries of their abilities. I don't disagree the cooperatation is important, my point is that expanding elite programs for children that simply don't belong in them is not in the best interests of the child. In many cases, its more about the parents who want to brag that their child is attending a GT Center, somehow validating the parents' (not the child's) success, instead of what's best for the child. This is a general statement and there are certainly exceptions.

For example, take a look at Germany, kids there are told in 4/5 grade whether they're on the university track, skilled labor, or middle of the road. In the U.S. we delay this until university. No doubt, I push my kids to deliver and get results versus making excuses for them and hiring experts to make a case for why they were sick or the test was somehow flawed.

That used to be the case. Now in over half the states in Germany, parents can make the decision regardless of whether the school agrees. It's creating huge problems, and major gaps in achievement from state to state. Currently, Bavaria has the toughest Abitur requirement--which is kind of funny, since they used to always be the butt of jokes as being the "southern hicks", sort of the Georgia of Germany (apologies in advance to the Georgians and Bavarians, no need to flame me).

[Anonymous]

Good grief. Now we're going to fight about the German education system??

This thread had clearly outlived its usefulness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Immediately PP - the undertones of your message were disturbing. In any event, smart is just plain smart. There may be a part of the population that can be pushed to achieve more academically, but the upper tier? They will get there no matter what. It is with them from birth.

Point taken - the tone was inappropriate. But you have to get off the moral high-horse. Self-interest has been the driving force behind this discussion; it is disservice to the proponents of meritocracy to cite that here. Once you have provided the right access to under-privileged kids you will have a different demographic in the GT program. There are many reasons why that cannot happen. So let us keep meritocracy out of this.

The parents on this thread are discussing whether a test score should override everything else in determining IQ. Meritocracy is external to this discussion thread.

[Anonymous]

Point taken - the tone was inappropriate. But you have to get off the moral high-horse. Self-interest has been the driving force behind this discussion; it is disservice to the proponents of meritocracy to cite that here. Once you have provided the right access to under-privileged kids you will have a different demographic in the GT program. There are many reasons why that cannot happen. So let us keep meritocracy out of this.

The parents on this thread are discussing whether a test score should override everything else in determining IQ. Meritocracy is external to this discussion thread.

Utterly reasonable. Thank you!

To those of you with "elite" children and who want to keep the lowly "referral" kids from dragging down the Center, do you actually think the Center is elite? It's not. Nobody thinks these kids are all in the top 1% or 2%. It's more like top 15%.

And if you can make the argument that your kid in the pool with a 98th percentile score is vastly more intelligent than my referred kid with a 96th percentile score who missed the cutoff by a point or two, and that I'm pushing my kid where he doesn't belong, I'd really love to hear it. And what if my kid has better grades, a stronger GBRS assessment from the school, more impressive work samples, and more amazing out-of-school accomplishments than your kid? I supposed that all counts for nothing because you've got that test score in your pocket and that says it all, right? (Interesting that every year they reject a fair number of these genius kids who tested into the pool, and they accept many of the referrals . . . .)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'd love to see a study of how well kids perform over the medium/long-term when they are pushed into GT compared to those that earned spots.

What criteria would you use to separate those kids into two groups? Do you have a magic crystal ball?

What is difficult is that these are KIDS we are talking about and their needs vary. Some kids are CLEARLY in NEED of a special program. Some kids clearly don't need a special program. AND some kids will fall somewhere in BETWEEN. Because. Get this. They are human. And so are their parents.

Parents generally want what they believe is the best for their kids. Sometimes kids do get sick on test days. Sometimes kids just aren't good standardized takers. Sometimes kids aren't doing their best in school, but the tests reveal that they have the potential to do better. So it isn't always so cut and try.

There are parents who push, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their kids don't belong. Don't punish the child for the parents' actions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd love to see a study of how well kids perform over the medium/long-term when they are pushed into GT compared to those that earned spots.

What criteria would you use to separate those kids into two groups? Do you have a magic crystal ball?

What is difficult is that these are KIDS we are talking about and their needs vary. Some kids are CLEARLY in NEED of a special program. Some kids clearly don't need a special program. AND some kids will fall somewhere in BETWEEN. Because. Get this. They are human. And so are their parents.

Parents generally want what they believe is the best for their kids. Sometimes kids do get sick on test days. Sometimes kids just aren't good standardized takers. Sometimes kids aren't doing their best in school, but the tests reveal that they have the potential to do better. So it isn't always so cut and try.

There are parents who push, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their kids don't belong. Don't punish the child for the parents' actions.

Don't feed the troll. At least I hope this person is a troll. I can't imagine what this person will be like when the person's kid applies to TJ.