Brown $68K vs. UMich (in-state) $28K

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.goldmansachs.com/careers/blog/posts/recruiting-events-26aug-09oct-2013.html

A couple years old but most recent I could find (as the WSJ article indicates, Goldman Sachs is changing its recruitment strategy. But Michigan was certainly on the campus visit list previously.

GS is a huge company with several tiers of status. Highest-status gigs very rarely go to Michigan kids — unless the kid is connected.

[Anonymous]

The claim was Michigan closed doors. But GS was recruiting summer analysts there. They weren't doing any recruitment events at Brown. As the other articles indicated (1) going to the "Harvard of your region" mattered for recruitment purposes (2) people that rose to the top of these companies had degrees from non-elite schools (3) GS was moving away from elite school recruiting because lots of those recruits left after a couple of years.

Yes, HYPSWC grads have an edge in first-job-post-college hiring in some fields/firms. But it doesn't follow from that that UM closes doors or that Brown is a golden ticket anywhere. And the impact college has on your career quickly fades once you actually have a track record in your field.

Michigan and Brown are both places where a student can get a great education. Whether that student actually does get a great education and what she does with it afterward are up to her. No doors will be closed or thrown wide open based on which of those schools she chooses. (Unless the additional cost/debt associated with attending Brown constrains job or grad school choices).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that Michigan is comparable to an Ivy is laughable.

But is Brown a real Ivy?

(Serious question here, no one in Europe or Asia even knows the school, much less put it at the same level as Harvard or Stanford)

W-t-f, how many kids are going to work in Europe or Asia? Not even 1% per class.

That'd be sad, IF true.

Anyway, it's not just about "going to work there," but about who one's boss/ investors/ partners may turn out to be.

Look 10 years ahead, and you'll realize how absurd this "Brown is so much better than UMich" is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What door(s) does Michigan close?

Yes. 2 Brown graduates have won Nobel prizes, whereas 8 UM grads have won. Michigan does not seem to have closed many doors for them.

The difference becomes even more dramatic if one includes faculty nobel laureates. Clearly UM is much bigger and has more of a research focus, so this is not meant to belittle Brown, just to show that UM is a fantastic school that will never hold anyone back.

You also have to consider the Nobel prize rate per student. I'm pretty sure the student body of UM is more than 4x that of Brown.

My anecdote is that my older sister went to UM, and I went to Stanford. I had a job interview several years ago that really turned me off; because, they mentioned that they only interview people from schools like Stanford/Harvard/MIT etc. I mentioned to my sister that I would not want to work at such an arrogant company, and she said she actually understood where they were coming from. She owns a company, and she does feel that some of the elite schools provide a good first tier filter for hiring...despite the fact that she did not attend one (FWIW, she turned down Columbia).

Anyway, UM and Brown will both provide a rich set of opportunities. Fit and finances are probably the most important deciding factors in any college decision.

This is silly. No company that cares about making money limits their candidates to such a small pool. Even when I was in banking there were recent grads from normal schools.

I agree it's silly; but that's what they told me. And FWIW, that company is hugely profitable. I interviewed at the start-up stage when they were less than 50 ppl, but there's a good chance you've heard of them now. And my point is that my sister, a Mich alum and business owner herself, told me that she understood their reasoning. That said, I don't think Brown would have been one of their "go-to" schools for recruiting either.

[Anonymous]

I remember from my Ivy days that the school made clear they strongly discouraged students from graduating in three years (as well as taking more than four years). The Ivies have 4 year graduate rates in the very high 90%s for this reason. During my alum interviewing days I remember being advised by the admissions office to filter out the students who expressed interest in graduating early as that was a sign they only cared about the degree, not the school experience.

Just a FYI for the OP.

Anonymous wrote:OP -- are you assuming DC would get a BA in three years, regardless of which school she attends? I'm wondering because you're asking whether it's worth the extra $120K. If that's not your assumption (and if your cost data is right), the difference in cost is 160K.

If it is your assumption, are you sure it's accurate? The rules vary widely from school to school and whether 3 years is realistic can depend on major and on the availability of particular course in particular years. It may also preclude things like study abroad.

[Anonymous]

In the long run Michigan versus Brown is meaningless, as is Michigan versus Dartmouth, Columbia, Cornell or Penn. All this talk about Brown not being a real Ivy is silly, it is an Ivy as it's part of the Ivy confederation. There's no ifs and buts about it. Stanford, a measurably "better" school than most of the Ivies, is not an Ivy school.

FYI as someone who worked overseas, both in Europe and Asia, there are people who have heard of Brown or Dartmouth. Another FYI is that in Asia Stanford, Berkeley and Harvard were the most known. Yale and Princeton weren't any more known than Brown or the other Ivies. But that's the folks on the street, while as an expat you move in more educated circles and in those circles all the Ivies are well known.

Continental Europeans really don't care about American universities. As for the UK there seems to be a lot of Brown graduates in London in all industries from finance to the arts. And, above all, in both Europe and Asia, there are plenty of American expats from little known schools as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that Michigan is comparable to an Ivy is laughable.

But is Brown a real Ivy?

(Serious question here, no one in Europe or Asia even knows the school, much less put it at the same level as Harvard or Stanford)

W-t-f, how many kids are going to work in Europe or Asia? Not even 1% per class.

That'd be sad, IF true.

Anyway, it's not just about "going to work there," but about who one's boss/ investors/ partners may turn out to be.

Look 10 years ahead, and you'll realize how absurd this "Brown is so much better than UMich" is.

[Anonymous]

You know the Ivy League is just an athletic conference, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know the Ivy League is just an athletic conference, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People will automatically assume a Brown girl is very smart, interesting, cosmopolitan, progressive, well read, likely wealthy.

Nobody assumes anything about a Michigan grad save for likely above average intelligence.

Actually, if the first thing I know about "a Brown girl" is that she's "a Brown girl," I'd assume that the fact that she's introducing herself this way is that she's insecure, status-obsessed, and hasn't accomplished anything meaningful since college.

But in any context where meaningful decisions are being made, gender and college aren't the only information available for forming an impression/making a judgment.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look into the residential college (known as the "RC"). She could apply to that. It's very much like Brown. It's a pass/fail model. She must be proficient in a second language to graduate from the program. It also guarantees that she'll be placed in a centrally located dorm: East Quad. Then she'll have the best of both worlds.

Aww, I lived in East Quad. Absolutely loved it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The claim was Michigan closed doors. But GS was recruiting summer analysts there. They weren't doing any recruitment events at Brown. As the other articles indicated (1) going to the "Harvard of your region" mattered for recruitment purposes (2) people that rose to the top of these companies had degrees from non-elite schools (3) GS was moving away from elite school recruiting because lots of those recruits left after a couple of years.

Yes, HYPSWC grads have an edge in first-job-post-college hiring in some fields/firms. But it doesn't follow from that that UM closes doors or that Brown is a golden ticket anywhere. And the impact college has on your career quickly fades once you actually have a track record in your field.

Michigan and Brown are both places where a student can get a great education. Whether that student actually does get a great education and what she does with it afterward are up to her. No doors will be closed or thrown wide open based on which of those schools she chooses. (Unless the additional cost/debt associated with attending Brown constrains job or grad school choices).

Doors will open more easily as a result of attending an Ivy. That's the way of the world. Michigan will always be the fourth best public university in the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look into the residential college (known as the "RC"). She could apply to that. It's very much like Brown. It's a pass/fail model. She must be proficient in a second language to graduate from the program. It also guarantees that she'll be placed in a centrally located dorm: East Quad. Then she'll have the best of both worlds.

Aww, I lived in East Quad. Absolutely loved it.

Me too! It's so sad that everyone we went to Michigan with is now a doctor, lawyer, engineer, director, or professor. How they have suffered, without setting foot in the grand Olympus of Brown. Really, we are all living out of paper bags.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look into the residential college (known as the "RC"). She could apply to that. It's very much like Brown. It's a pass/fail model. She must be proficient in a second language to graduate from the program. It also guarantees that she'll be placed in a centrally located dorm: East Quad. Then she'll have the best of both worlds.

Aww, I lived in East Quad. Absolutely loved it.

Me too! It's so sad that everyone we went to Michigan with is now a doctor, lawyer, engineer, director, or professor. How they have suffered, without setting foot in the grand Olympus of Brown. Really, we are all living out of paper bags.

"Everyone" is engaged in one of those endeavors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look into the residential college (known as the "RC"). She could apply to that. It's very much like Brown. It's a pass/fail model. She must be proficient in a second language to graduate from the program. It also guarantees that she'll be placed in a centrally located dorm: East Quad. Then she'll have the best of both worlds.

Aww, I lived in East Quad. Absolutely loved it.

Me too! It's so sad that everyone we went to Michigan with is now a doctor, lawyer, engineer, director, or professor. How they have suffered, without setting foot in the grand Olympus of Brown. Really, we are all living out of paper bags.

"Everyone" is engaged in one of those endeavors?

Most, yes. I could write out a comprehensive list but I doubt it would matter to you. Given those doors slammed in our faces because we were not Brown. Oh the humanity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look into the residential college (known as the "RC"). She could apply to that. It's very much like Brown. It's a pass/fail model. She must be proficient in a second language to graduate from the program. It also guarantees that she'll be placed in a centrally located dorm: East Quad. Then she'll have the best of both worlds.

Aww, I lived in East Quad. Absolutely loved it.

Me too! It's so sad that everyone we went to Michigan with is now a doctor, lawyer, engineer, director, or professor. How they have suffered, without setting foot in the grand Olympus of Brown. Really, we are all living out of paper bags.

"Everyone" is engaged in one of those endeavors?

Most, yes. I could write out a comprehensive list but I doubt it would matter to you. Given those doors slammed in our faces because we were not Brown. Oh the humanity.

So we're at "most" now. Or, rather, we're awaiting a "comprehensive" list that would show that "most" work in one of the five above-mentioned fields. Uh-huh.