DC CAPE SCORES

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your floor should be looking at schools where majority are at grade level. Then very good chance that is where the teaching will be.

Then you need to know if there is a good cohort of higher performing kids by looking at number of 5’s.

Only kids good at test taking do well on CAPE is a myth that families at poorly performing schools want you to believe and how they justify low scores.

CAPE is not hard. It tests you grade level content and what kids should know. 5 shows that the kids have a deeper understanding of concepts.

Then go talk to parents at these schools and see how the curriculum and teaching is set up

I’m very familiar with the secondary math CAPE test. It IS hard. In fact, it is significantly harder than the SOLs in VA. There’s a reason DC was the only place left taking PARCC from the original group that started with it. They changed the name because it’s now only taken in DC, not because the test changed.

A lot of the questions on the math section are harder (intentionally imo) than they need to be if you simply created a question to assess proficiency of a particular standard.

FWIW, I hear that the SOL in VA have gotten easier. They have lowers the standards and it is not good.

+1. I teach in VA and the test is a joke. There no writing assessment until 5th and the writing prompts are terrible. CAPE is significantly harder, especially the writing prompts. Most of my students (high population of ELs) would be 1s or 2s.

This is good to know. I have been thinking of CAPE 5s as interchangeable with SOL Pass Advance, which from my own FCPS experience was never a challenge, and so have been looking askance at the rate of 5s at our school.

[Anonymous]

Test scores seem to have plummeted at Cleveland ES. Anyone have any insight as to what's going on there? We're probably going to lottery for next year, and they were on our (lengthy) initial list of schools to look into but I think I'm going to take them off with these scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test scores seem to have plummeted at Cleveland ES. Anyone have any insight as to what's going on there? We're probably going to lottery for next year, and they were on our (lengthy) initial list of schools to look into but I think I'm going to take them off with these scores.

I don’t have any inside knowledge. But I wouldn’t read too much into one-year variations in any school, especially if the school is small. It can be possible that a strong 5th grade cohort graduated last year, and the incoming third graders were relatively weaker. Or maybe there was a weak teacher. With only 40ish kids per grade, a little variation can significantly affect scores. Being a bilingual school is not easy when it comes to CAPE scores either, generally the second language tapes up time that other schools dedicate to double ELA or double math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test scores seem to have plummeted at Cleveland ES. Anyone have any insight as to what's going on there? We're probably going to lottery for next year, and they were on our (lengthy) initial list of schools to look into but I think I'm going to take them off with these scores.

I don’t have any inside knowledge. But I wouldn’t read too much into one-year variations in any school, especially if the school is small. It can be possible that a strong 5th grade cohort graduated last year, and the incoming third graders were relatively weaker. Or maybe there was a weak teacher. With only 40ish kids per grade, a little variation can significantly affect scores. Being a bilingual school is not easy when it comes to CAPE scores either, generally the second language tapes up time that other schools dedicate to double ELA or double math.

In general, I'd agree that variation year to year will happen. But for Cleveland, going from 23-24 to 24-25, looking at 4+ scores:

ELA 3rd grade: 29 -> 6
Math 3rd grade: 16 -> 3
ELA 4th grade: 48 -> 39
Math 4th grade: 42 -> 11

That's some pretty huge drops.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test scores seem to have plummeted at Cleveland ES. Anyone have any insight as to what's going on there? We're probably going to lottery for next year, and they were on our (lengthy) initial list of schools to look into but I think I'm going to take them off with these scores.

I don’t have any inside knowledge. But I wouldn’t read too much into one-year variations in any school, especially if the school is small. It can be possible that a strong 5th grade cohort graduated last year, and the incoming third graders were relatively weaker. Or maybe there was a weak teacher. With only 40ish kids per grade, a little variation can significantly affect scores. Being a bilingual school is not easy when it comes to CAPE scores either, generally the second language tapes up time that other schools dedicate to double ELA or double math.

In general, I'd agree that variation year to year will happen. But for Cleveland, going from 23-24 to 24-25, looking at 4+ scores:

ELA 3rd grade: 29 -> 6
Math 3rd grade: 16 -> 3
ELA 4th grade: 48 -> 39
Math 4th grade: 42 -> 11

That's some pretty huge drops.

Yeah, you’re right. Looking by cohort though, that means last year’s fourth graders went up from 29% proficiency in ELA in their third grade year to 39% in their fourth, a great increase. They dropped from 16% to 11% in math to though, not great. The very low scores in 3rd grade (6% and 3%) are definitely concerning. But it doesn’t mean than one set of kids’ proficiency rates dropped 20%+. It just seems to be a group of third graders with very low proficiency. Hopefully they can get some intervention and get their scores up this year.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I tend to think smart kids with average teaching will score 4s. Smart kids with very good/effective teachers may score 5s. A high concentration of 5s shows you something about the teaching quality.

CAPE/PARCC is a weird test. My kid scored high on it only because his 3rd grade teacher spent a month teaching all the tricks -- like put a quote somewhere in your essay because the graders are looking for a quote, etc. I guess this has to do with teaching quality? But more like he had a good teacher who knew how to teach to the test.

Then that is a big red flag. I would look at other schools.

Our school does not teach to the test at all. Parents get communication that there is going to be testing coming up. School recommends kids get good nights rest and that’s it. Our kids do well.

Teaching to the test only gets you so far. It is not going to get you top scores especially higher up in the grades. This is true in ELA and especially true in math.

PP here, I also want to add that spending a month teaching to the test takes away from quality teaching that could have been done in those 30 days.

Incorrect. You sound like a parent who doesn't even have kids at testing age yet.

At young ages, teaching to the test is valuable just like any teaching is valuable. Kids are learning how to look at an exam question, how to sort through multiple choice answers, how to type a response, how to manage time during an exam, etc. All skills they will need throughout their school years. These skills take time to learn, especially when a child is only in 3rd grade, when CAPE begins.

It’s only valuable because we make standardized testing valuable. In a world where college admissions are- well we’re dropping such requirements.

It’s an artificial barrier that does not indicate any true skill. I agree with the other teacher in the sense that it is wasteful. Unfortunately due to the reality of US politics and classism teaching to test is important.

Meant to say ‘well we were dropping such requirements.’

Except, this isn't true... Competitive schools are bringing back the SAT (e.g., Yale) *and* no schools are dropping tests entirely... SAT IIs, APs, IB exams, etc. All of those are standardized tests that are hugely important for kids to do well on. Then there's the LSAT and the bar exam if your kid wants to be a lawyer. Or the MCAT and the various medical board exams for doctors. Or the CPA exam. Or the GRE. Etc. Etc. Tests are important for life for most kids looking for white collar jobs. Teaching test taking skills is helpful.

I said “We WERE,” as in the past tense.
It’s all arbitrary, tests for jobs vs. tests for school.
There are kids who also do well on various tests for jobs and then suck at the job. That is why doctors do not get to fully practice just after taking a test.

It is helpful if your child does not get the skills needed from actual teaching but if that’s the case I would not want my child to go to a school like that.

The way I think about tests is that there are no "false positives." If someone does well on a test -- 5 on CAPE, or 1500 on SATs or 178 on LSAt or whatever, it tells you that this is a smart person who knows their stuff. There is no way to fake that.

If someone doesn't do well, I guess it's possible they know their stuff but are a "bad test taker" but there is no way to differentiate that person from someone who doesn't know their material.

The reality is that standardized tests are not out to trick you. They are testing competency or proficiency in topics.

Everyone comes from different schools and academic backgrounds and to accurately access competency you need all to take the same test. This starts in elementary and goes all the way up to graduate and doctorate. In life, it’s the floor to gain consideration into higher levels of education, certification, or what have you.

Sure maybe you can get a few more points if you know some test taking tricks but if you don’t know first know the topic and then second can’t analyze or apply what you know, you will never do well.

Best thing is to be comfortable with the structure of the test and the environment it will be given. There is a drop in performance if a student is too nervous. Generally solved by taking at least one practice test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tend to think smart kids with average teaching will score 4s. Smart kids with very good/effective teachers may score 5s. A high concentration of 5s shows you something about the teaching quality.

CAPE/PARCC is a weird test. My kid scored high on it only because his 3rd grade teacher spent a month teaching all the tricks -- like put a quote somewhere in your essay because the graders are looking for a quote, etc. I guess this has to do with teaching quality? But more like he had a good teacher who knew how to teach to the test.

Then that is a big red flag. I would look at other schools.

Our school does not teach to the test at all. Parents get communication that there is going to be testing coming up. School recommends kids get good nights rest and that’s it. Our kids do well.

Teaching to the test only gets you so far. It is not going to get you top scores especially higher up in the grades. This is true in ELA and especially true in math.

PP here, I also want to add that spending a month teaching to the test takes away from quality teaching that could have been done in those 30 days.

Incorrect. You sound like a parent who doesn't even have kids at testing age yet.

At young ages, teaching to the test is valuable just like any teaching is valuable. Kids are learning how to look at an exam question, how to sort through multiple choice answers, how to type a response, how to manage time during an exam, etc. All skills they will need throughout their school years. These skills take time to learn, especially when a child is only in 3rd grade, when CAPE begins.

It’s only valuable because we make standardized testing valuable. In a world where college admissions are- well we’re dropping such requirements.

It’s an artificial barrier that does not indicate any true skill. I agree with the other teacher in the sense that it is wasteful. Unfortunately due to the reality of US politics and classism teaching to test is important.

Meant to say ‘well we were dropping such requirements.’

Except, this isn't true... Competitive schools are bringing back the SAT (e.g., Yale) *and* no schools are dropping tests entirely... SAT IIs, APs, IB exams, etc. All of those are standardized tests that are hugely important for kids to do well on. Then there's the LSAT and the bar exam if your kid wants to be a lawyer. Or the MCAT and the various medical board exams for doctors. Or the CPA exam. Or the GRE. Etc. Etc. Tests are important for life for most kids looking for white collar jobs. Teaching test taking skills is helpful.

I said “We WERE,” as in the past tense.
It’s all arbitrary, tests for jobs vs. tests for school.
There are kids who also do well on various tests for jobs and then suck at the job. That is why doctors do not get to fully practice just after taking a test.

It is helpful if your child does not get the skills needed from actual teaching but if that’s the case I would not want my child to go to a school like that.

The way I think about tests is that there are no "false positives." If someone does well on a test -- 5 on CAPE, or 1500 on SATs or 178 on LSAt or whatever, it tells you that this is a smart person who knows their stuff. There is no way to fake that.

If someone doesn't do well, I guess it's possible they know their stuff but are a "bad test taker" but there is no way to differentiate that person from someone who doesn't know their material.

The reality is that standardized tests are not out to trick you. They are testing competency or proficiency in topics.

Everyone comes from different schools and academic backgrounds and to accurately access competency you need all to take the same test. This starts in elementary and goes all the way up to graduate and doctorate. In life, it’s the floor to gain consideration into higher levels of education, certification, or what have you.

Sure maybe you can get a few more points if you know some test taking tricks but if you don’t know first know the topic and then second can’t analyze or apply what you know, you will never do well.

Best thing is to be comfortable with the structure of the test and the environment it will be given. There is a drop in performance if a student is too nervous. Generally solved by taking at least one practice test.

+1

Kids need to learn how to take tests and how to perform on demand. One of those necessary life skills...

[Anonymous]

No teaching to the test at our charter. Kids do fine.

We are more focused on families sending in snacks post test! LOL,

[Anonymous]

DCPS posted something about the most improved DCPS schools on their SM. All the following had double-digit gains:

Math:
Thomas ES
Chisholm ES
Noyes ES
Whittier ES
John Lewis ES
Hearst ES
Raymond ES
Kimball ES
Stuart-Hobson MS

ELA:
McKinley Teach (22point increase!)
Bard HS
Thomson ES
Moten ES
Hearst ES
Stuart-Hobson ES
Brent ES
Burroughs ES
Mann ES
SWS@Goding
Noyes ES
Nalle ES
Roosevelt HS

Well done! Love seeing schools on an upwards trajectory!

[Anonymous]

Looking just at elementary schools, a few things that have jumped out at me:

Lee Montessori East End is a disaster. Montessori in general doesn't perform great compared to schools with similar at-risk rates, but Lee EE is just amazingly bad.

What are Center City-Congress Heights and Whittier doing that others aren't? They're scoring way above where one would expect given their as-risk rates.

Same with Moten Elementary. The scores aren't good in a vacuum, but when considering 84% of their students are considered at-risk, they're all but pulling off miracles in math and ELA.

White kids do fine anywhere there's at least 10 white kids, apparently. DCPS outperforms charters. Ward 3 schools lead the way, unsurprisingly.

Even the highest performing schools are failing their at-risk students more often than not.

At schools with an at-risk rate below 25%, DCPS substantial out-performs charters. The gap is wider at math than it is at reading.

[Anonymous]

Where do you go to get data on each individual school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where do you go to get data on each individual school?

OSSE website,.it's a big spreadsheet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Looking just at elementary schools, a few things that have jumped out at me:

Lee Montessori East End is a disaster. Montessori in general doesn't perform great compared to schools with similar at-risk rates, but Lee EE is just amazingly bad.

What are Center City-Congress Heights and Whittier doing that others aren't? They're scoring way above where one would expect given their as-risk rates.

Same with Moten Elementary. The scores aren't good in a vacuum, but when considering 84% of their students are considered at-risk, they're all but pulling off miracles in math and ELA.

White kids do fine anywhere there's at least 10 white kids, apparently. DCPS outperforms charters. Ward 3 schools lead the way, unsurprisingly.

Even the highest performing schools are failing their at-risk students more often than not.

At schools with an at-risk rate below 25%, DCPS substantial out-performs charters. The gap is wider at math than it is at reading.

I can't speak to Cap City but honestly Whittier has an incredible staff.

Beginning in first grade students do block scheduling with almost an hour and a half each of ELA, math, and science each day. They also have a math interventionist/acceleration teacher and separate reading intervention and acceleration teachers. The reading acceleration teacher holds a morning book club before school for kids ages kindergarten and up as well.

If the school could get more local UMC families to buy in for later grades (lots of building + MS fears) the scores overall would soar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Looking just at elementary schools, a few things that have jumped out at me:

Lee Montessori East End is a disaster. Montessori in general doesn't perform great compared to schools with similar at-risk rates, but Lee EE is just amazingly bad.

What are Center City-Congress Heights and Whittier doing that others aren't? They're scoring way above where one would expect given their as-risk rates.

Same with Moten Elementary. The scores aren't good in a vacuum, but when considering 84% of their students are considered at-risk, they're all but pulling off miracles in math and ELA.

White kids do fine anywhere there's at least 10 white kids, apparently. DCPS outperforms charters. Ward 3 schools lead the way, unsurprisingly.

Even the highest performing schools are failing their at-risk students more often than not.

At schools with an at-risk rate below 25%, DCPS substantial out-performs charters. The gap is wider at math than it is at reading.

It’s not so surprising that the high performing schools aren’t doing as well with at-risk. Their levels of at-risk students are generally low. It’s surprising that some of the typically higher performing focused on at-risk just haven’t recovered. KIPP is struggling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking just at elementary schools, a few things that have jumped out at me:

Lee Montessori East End is a disaster. Montessori in general doesn't perform great compared to schools with similar at-risk rates, but Lee EE is just amazingly bad.

What are Center City-Congress Heights and Whittier doing that others aren't? They're scoring way above where one would expect given their as-risk rates.

Same with Moten Elementary. The scores aren't good in a vacuum, but when considering 84% of their students are considered at-risk, they're all but pulling off miracles in math and ELA.

White kids do fine anywhere there's at least 10 white kids, apparently. DCPS outperforms charters. Ward 3 schools lead the way, unsurprisingly.

Even the highest performing schools are failing their at-risk students more often than not.

At schools with an at-risk rate below 25%, DCPS substantial out-performs charters. The gap is wider at math than it is at reading.

I can't speak to Cap City but honestly Whittier has an incredible staff.

Beginning in first grade students do block scheduling with almost an hour and a half each of ELA, math, and science each day. They also have a math interventionist/acceleration teacher and separate reading intervention and acceleration teachers. The reading acceleration teacher holds a morning book club before school for kids ages kindergarten and up as well.

If the school could get more local UMC families to buy in for later grades (lots of building + MS fears) the scores overall would soar.

You must mean Center City. Cap City isn’t doing that well and recently got a bunch of conditions from the charter board because of their performance. Center City Congress Heights has an amazing principal, great culture and strong, stable staff.