Camp Mystic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the time first rejected, it was $1 million. Out of a $57 million county budget.

That seems like the sort of thing that the state government should help fund.

The Texas state government just chose to provide 57 billion dollars in property tax cuts. I guess they assume basic safety will be provided by property owners. Go to Texas at your own risk.

All of this is off topic. It was still the responsibility of the camp to ensure safety. They should have been more in tune with local authorities on a regular basis.

That this is off-topic is your opinion, not a fact. I disagree.

I also disagree that the camp holds the only responsibility in this situation. There are several posts up thread explaining that this is not the first instance of this area of Texas having flash floods. It’s not even the first instance this decade to involve campers.

Ultimately they are the ones responsible for the kids and counselors safety. Should the state have put in the warning system, yes. This is tragic and avoidable. As a parent it’s horrifying to think what those kids and counselors went through.

It was a local decision not to fund the flood warning system-not state. It is not the job of a camp to substitute for poor government decisions (made by poor voting decisions by citizens) although I agree putting the youngest kids (or any kids for that matter) in cabins next to a river prone to flooding was reckless.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I'm from the south and understand camp culture and its importance to many families. I have multiple friends with some association to Camp Mystic as former campers, counselors, etc. It's not my thing, but I get it.

Here's what I don't understand.

This camp - and many camps in that area - have been there for 100 years. This is a big part of the tradition; campers literally stay in the same cabins that their moms, grandmothers, aunts, etc. did. They are not going to up and move the location of the camp. But, given the nature of the river and history of flooding there, why are they not better regulated? Are they inspected for safety, beyond the dining room kitchens? How do they get insurance being situated so close to the river as they are?

It seems to me that any of these privately held camps that host thousands of kids across the course of the summer would pay more attention to safety factors. I'm sure they do some sort of weather drills and training, etc. with their young staffs. But this is the kind of thing that needs to be reviewed and thought through on an annual basis. Why was no one awake that night, all night, watching the weather forecast? The warnings were there and they grew increasingly dire throughout the night. That should be standard operating procedure for any facility like this.

Is it common to have someone literally awake watching the weather forecast at any camp? I'm sure that many of y'all will become experts on the Camp Mystic Safety Manual as soon as it's available.

At the camp I attended there absolutely was a counselor tasked with being up all night for medical emergencies, weather, comms, etc. I’m floored there wasn’t someone looking out.

PP again. A counselor?? That's not good enough. If you have 850 CHILDREN as your responsibility, again sleeping out in the middle of the woods away from serious medical help, etc., for weeks at a time, there damn well should be a full staff of adult security guards.

The more I think about it, this is 100% on the camp. I hope parents are lining up lawsuits.

There were failures at many levels, federal, state, county, and local. A perfect storm.

Not really, there was a break in the federal level which never kicked off what would happen down the line. This fully is the fault of DOGE cuts and those who voted for it.

Here's what Heather Cox Richardson, who IME checks her sources quite carefully, reports:

"Immediately after the catastrophe became apparent, Texas officials began to blame cuts to the National Weather Service (NWS)—part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)—for causing inaccurate forecasts. The “Department of Government Efficiency” cut about 600 staffers from the NWS. After the cuts, the understaffed agency warned that “severe shortages” of meteorologists would hurt weather forecasting.

All five living former directors of the NWS warned in May that the cuts “[leave] the nation’s official weather forecasting entity at a significant deficit…just as we head into the busiest time for severe storm predictions like tornadoes and hurricanes…. Our worst nightmare is that weather forecast offices will be so understaffed that there will be needless loss of life.”

But former NWS officials maintain the forecasts were as accurate as possible and noted the storm escalated abruptly. They told Christopher Flavelle of the New York Times that the problem appeared to be that NWS had lost the staffers who would typically communicate with local authorities to spread the word of dangerous conditions. Molly Taft at Wired confirmed that NWS published flash flood warnings but safety officials didn’t send out public warnings until hours later.

Meanwhile, Kerr County’s most senior elected official, Judge Rob Kelly, focused on local officials, telling Flavelle that the county did not have a warning system because such systems are expensive and “[t]axpayers won’t pay for it.”

Those NWS-published flash flood warnings are what would have been broadcast on a weather radio, if one had been present.

You lost my when you bring up Heather Cox Richardson. Talk about someone with an agenda to push.

This may all be correct, even partially, but the fact remains that the camp DID KNOW ABOUT THE DANGERS OF THE STORM far earlier than they sufficienty reacted to it.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

DP here. As someone who largely agrees with Heather Cox Richardson politically, I find her extremely off-putting. I just do not like her tone or her writing style at all.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

Can you read? I’m not refuting her. I just think she’s grating.

Your inability to tolerate her tone is not germane to the discussion.

She isn’t relevant to this at all. That’s the point.

It's funny how long it took for you to arrive at that position.

A dispassionate, fact-checked rendering of what happened--and what entities appear most likely to be responsible--is very relevant. If you think her claims about that are wrong, refute them. Whining on about her tone is sub-collegiate discourse.

+1. When people can’t argue the facts, or don’t like what the facts were, they complain about inappropriateness of “tone” or that the time is inappropriate to discuss something as “unimportant” as facts. And that’s why a bunch of kids are dead in the USA when they shouldn’t be.

You're right. But it isnt anyone's fault. You can blame the government or you can blame the camp director or the counselor for not being awake and hearing the water rush in. It wasn't completely avoidable like, say, a school shooting is avoidable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the time first rejected, it was $1 million. Out of a $57 million county budget.

That seems like the sort of thing that the state government should help fund.

The Texas state government just chose to provide 57 billion dollars in property tax cuts. I guess they assume basic safety will be provided by property owners. Go to Texas at your own risk.

All of this is off topic. It was still the responsibility of the camp to ensure safety. They should have been more in tune with local authorities on a regular basis.

That this is off-topic is your opinion, not a fact. I disagree.

I also disagree that the camp holds the only responsibility in this situation. There are several posts up thread explaining that this is not the first instance of this area of Texas having flash floods. It’s not even the first instance this decade to involve campers.

Ultimately they are the ones responsible for the kids and counselors safety. Should the state have put in the warning system, yes. This is tragic and avoidable. As a parent it’s horrifying to think what those kids and counselors went through.

It was a local decision not to fund the flood warning system-not state. It is not the job of a camp to substitute for poor government decisions (made by poor voting decisions by citizens) although I agree putting the youngest kids (or any kids for that matter) in cabins next to a river prone to flooding was reckless.

The camp is on private property and privately owned. They should have systems in place. The government should also have systems in place but ultimately this is a private camp in private property.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm from the south and understand camp culture and its importance to many families. I have multiple friends with some association to Camp Mystic as former campers, counselors, etc. It's not my thing, but I get it.

Here's what I don't understand.

This camp - and many camps in that area - have been there for 100 years. This is a big part of the tradition; campers literally stay in the same cabins that their moms, grandmothers, aunts, etc. did. They are not going to up and move the location of the camp. But, given the nature of the river and history of flooding there, why are they not better regulated? Are they inspected for safety, beyond the dining room kitchens? How do they get insurance being situated so close to the river as they are?

It seems to me that any of these privately held camps that host thousands of kids across the course of the summer would pay more attention to safety factors. I'm sure they do some sort of weather drills and training, etc. with their young staffs. But this is the kind of thing that needs to be reviewed and thought through on an annual basis. Why was no one awake that night, all night, watching the weather forecast? The warnings were there and they grew increasingly dire throughout the night. That should be standard operating procedure for any facility like this.

Is it common to have someone literally awake watching the weather forecast at any camp? I'm sure that many of y'all will become experts on the Camp Mystic Safety Manual as soon as it's available.

At the camp I attended there absolutely was a counselor tasked with being up all night for medical emergencies, weather, comms, etc. I’m floored there wasn’t someone looking out.

PP again. A counselor?? That's not good enough. If you have 850 CHILDREN as your responsibility, again sleeping out in the middle of the woods away from serious medical help, etc., for weeks at a time, there damn well should be a full staff of adult security guards.

The more I think about it, this is 100% on the camp. I hope parents are lining up lawsuits.

There were failures at many levels, federal, state, county, and local. A perfect storm.

Not really, there was a break in the federal level which never kicked off what would happen down the line. This fully is the fault of DOGE cuts and those who voted for it.

Here's what Heather Cox Richardson, who IME checks her sources quite carefully, reports:

"Immediately after the catastrophe became apparent, Texas officials began to blame cuts to the National Weather Service (NWS)—part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)—for causing inaccurate forecasts. The “Department of Government Efficiency” cut about 600 staffers from the NWS. After the cuts, the understaffed agency warned that “severe shortages” of meteorologists would hurt weather forecasting.

All five living former directors of the NWS warned in May that the cuts “[leave] the nation’s official weather forecasting entity at a significant deficit…just as we head into the busiest time for severe storm predictions like tornadoes and hurricanes…. Our worst nightmare is that weather forecast offices will be so understaffed that there will be needless loss of life.”

But former NWS officials maintain the forecasts were as accurate as possible and noted the storm escalated abruptly. They told Christopher Flavelle of the New York Times that the problem appeared to be that NWS had lost the staffers who would typically communicate with local authorities to spread the word of dangerous conditions. Molly Taft at Wired confirmed that NWS published flash flood warnings but safety officials didn’t send out public warnings until hours later.

Meanwhile, Kerr County’s most senior elected official, Judge Rob Kelly, focused on local officials, telling Flavelle that the county did not have a warning system because such systems are expensive and “[t]axpayers won’t pay for it.”

Those NWS-published flash flood warnings are what would have been broadcast on a weather radio, if one had been present.

You lost my when you bring up Heather Cox Richardson. Talk about someone with an agenda to push.

This may all be correct, even partially, but the fact remains that the camp DID KNOW ABOUT THE DANGERS OF THE STORM far earlier than they sufficienty reacted to it.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

DP here. As someone who largely agrees with Heather Cox Richardson politically, I find her extremely off-putting. I just do not like her tone or her writing style at all.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

Can you read? I’m not refuting her. I just think she’s grating.

Your inability to tolerate her tone is not germane to the discussion.

She isn’t relevant to this at all. That’s the point.

It's funny how long it took for you to arrive at that position.

A dispassionate, fact-checked rendering of what happened--and what entities appear most likely to be responsible--is very relevant. If you think her claims about that are wrong, refute them. Whining on about her tone is sub-collegiate discourse.

+1. When people can’t argue the facts, or don’t like what the facts were, they complain about inappropriateness of “tone” or that the time is inappropriate to discuss something as “unimportant” as facts. And that’s why a bunch of kids are dead in the USA when they shouldn’t be.

You're right. But it isnt anyone's fault. You can blame the government or you can blame the camp director or the counselor for not being awake and hearing the water rush in. It wasn't completely avoidable like, say, a school shooting is avoidable.

The camp should have had more precautions in place. Could it still have happened, yes but looking at pictures and reading the history more could have been done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm from the south and understand camp culture and its importance to many families. I have multiple friends with some association to Camp Mystic as former campers, counselors, etc. It's not my thing, but I get it.

Here's what I don't understand.

This camp - and many camps in that area - have been there for 100 years. This is a big part of the tradition; campers literally stay in the same cabins that their moms, grandmothers, aunts, etc. did. They are not going to up and move the location of the camp. But, given the nature of the river and history of flooding there, why are they not better regulated? Are they inspected for safety, beyond the dining room kitchens? How do they get insurance being situated so close to the river as they are?

It seems to me that any of these privately held camps that host thousands of kids across the course of the summer would pay more attention to safety factors. I'm sure they do some sort of weather drills and training, etc. with their young staffs. But this is the kind of thing that needs to be reviewed and thought through on an annual basis. Why was no one awake that night, all night, watching the weather forecast? The warnings were there and they grew increasingly dire throughout the night. That should be standard operating procedure for any facility like this.

Is it common to have someone literally awake watching the weather forecast at any camp? I'm sure that many of y'all will become experts on the Camp Mystic Safety Manual as soon as it's available.

At the camp I attended there absolutely was a counselor tasked with being up all night for medical emergencies, weather, comms, etc. I’m floored there wasn’t someone looking out.

PP again. A counselor?? That's not good enough. If you have 850 CHILDREN as your responsibility, again sleeping out in the middle of the woods away from serious medical help, etc., for weeks at a time, there damn well should be a full staff of adult security guards.

The more I think about it, this is 100% on the camp. I hope parents are lining up lawsuits.

There were failures at many levels, federal, state, county, and local. A perfect storm.

Not really, there was a break in the federal level which never kicked off what would happen down the line. This fully is the fault of DOGE cuts and those who voted for it.

Here's what Heather Cox Richardson, who IME checks her sources quite carefully, reports:

"Immediately after the catastrophe became apparent, Texas officials began to blame cuts to the National Weather Service (NWS)—part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)—for causing inaccurate forecasts. The “Department of Government Efficiency” cut about 600 staffers from the NWS. After the cuts, the understaffed agency warned that “severe shortages” of meteorologists would hurt weather forecasting.

All five living former directors of the NWS warned in May that the cuts “[leave] the nation’s official weather forecasting entity at a significant deficit…just as we head into the busiest time for severe storm predictions like tornadoes and hurricanes…. Our worst nightmare is that weather forecast offices will be so understaffed that there will be needless loss of life.”

But former NWS officials maintain the forecasts were as accurate as possible and noted the storm escalated abruptly. They told Christopher Flavelle of the New York Times that the problem appeared to be that NWS had lost the staffers who would typically communicate with local authorities to spread the word of dangerous conditions. Molly Taft at Wired confirmed that NWS published flash flood warnings but safety officials didn’t send out public warnings until hours later.

Meanwhile, Kerr County’s most senior elected official, Judge Rob Kelly, focused on local officials, telling Flavelle that the county did not have a warning system because such systems are expensive and “[t]axpayers won’t pay for it.”

Those NWS-published flash flood warnings are what would have been broadcast on a weather radio, if one had been present.

You lost my when you bring up Heather Cox Richardson. Talk about someone with an agenda to push.

This may all be correct, even partially, but the fact remains that the camp DID KNOW ABOUT THE DANGERS OF THE STORM far earlier than they sufficienty reacted to it.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

DP here. As someone who largely agrees with Heather Cox Richardson politically, I find her extremely off-putting. I just do not like her tone or her writing style at all.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

Can you read? I’m not refuting her. I just think she’s grating.

Your inability to tolerate her tone is not germane to the discussion.

She isn’t relevant to this at all. That’s the point.

It's funny how long it took for you to arrive at that position.

A dispassionate, fact-checked rendering of what happened--and what entities appear most likely to be responsible--is very relevant. If you think her claims about that are wrong, refute them. Whining on about her tone is sub-collegiate discourse.

+1. When people can’t argue the facts, or don’t like what the facts were, they complain about inappropriateness of “tone” or that the time is inappropriate to discuss something as “unimportant” as facts. And that’s why a bunch of kids are dead in the USA when they shouldn’t be.

You're right. But it isnt anyone's fault. You can blame the government or you can blame the camp director or the counselor for not being awake and hearing the water rush in. It wasn't completely avoidable like, say, a school shooting is avoidable.

I think it’s at least partially the fault of the citizens of this Texas “flood alley” for being too cheap to pay for a siren system and other measures that other flood prone states have. As have been said upthread, this area of Texas has regularly had to have campers evacuated due to floods.

How are those low taxes looking given that 80+ people are dead?

[Anonymous]

The Republican Congress member who represents this Texas flood prone area voted against more national funding for flood warning systems because it was too expensive…but yes, only the camp is to blame. /s

One such system exists in other flood-prone basins, where gauges in a cresting river automatically send alerts to a network of river sirens, which sound alarms across the area.

That’s technology that Kerrville officials say they have needed for years. But locals “reeled at the cost” of a county program, Kelly told PBS’s “Frontline,” and attempts to pay for it with state or federal funds failed.

In 2018, during the first Trump administration, Kerr County and the Upper Guadalupe River Authority applied to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) for about $1 million to build a flood warning system — and were denied, KXAN reported.
This year, a bill that would have spent $500 million on a modern system of disaster warnings across the state passed the House but died in the Senate. One House member who voted against it, first-term state Rep. Wes Virdell (R), represents Kerr County.

“I can tell you in hindsight, watching what it takes to deal with a disaster like this, my vote would probably be different now,” Virdell told The Texas Tribune on Sunday, adding that he had objected to the measure’s price tag.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Republican Congress member who represents this Texas flood prone area voted against more national funding for flood warning systems because it was too expensive…but yes, only the camp is to blame. /s

One such system exists in other flood-prone basins, where gauges in a cresting river automatically send alerts to a network of river sirens, which sound alarms across the area.

That’s technology that Kerrville officials say they have needed for years. But locals “reeled at the cost” of a county program, Kelly told PBS’s “Frontline,” and attempts to pay for it with state or federal funds failed.

In 2018, during the first Trump administration, Kerr County and the Upper Guadalupe River Authority applied to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) for about $1 million to build a flood warning system — and were denied, KXAN reported.
This year, a bill that would have spent $500 million on a modern system of disaster warnings across the state passed the House but died in the Senate. One House member who voted against it, first-term state Rep. Wes Virdell (R), represents Kerr County.

“I can tell you in hindsight, watching what it takes to deal with a disaster like this, my vote would probably be different now,” Virdell told The Texas Tribune on Sunday, adding that he had objected to the measure’s price tag.

The camp needed their own systems and precautions in place. Both were necessary but ultimately the camp is responsible.

[Anonymous]

Why are these camps all white kids?

*no they don’t deserve to drown in a flood. Genuinely asking why there is zero diversity in any of the camp photos on social media. Is it the costs? Or just… self selection? Or????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why are these camps all white kids?

*no they don’t deserve to drown in a flood. Genuinely asking why there is zero diversity in any of the camp photos on social media. Is it the costs? Or just… self selection? Or????

For a camp that goes back generations, consider the demographics of the time. The US of today is far, far, far more diverse than it was 20 years ago and that time was far, far, far more diverse than it was 50 years ago. We have long been a country of immigrants but it used to be harder to get here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO the camp deserves the blame. Other camps in the area started evacuating hours earlier and others ended their sessions a day earlier. The first warning about flooding went out Thursday at 1pm.

The camp session dates are planned way (a year or more) in advance. There is typically a June session and a July session. There are several camps in the area, Heart O’ the Hills, Stewart, Rio and Sierra Vista, that just happened to be between sessions. They didn’t end the session early because of the weather. This is absolutely false. I don’t know about Stewart but there was significant damage at Heat O’ the Hills and the Vista camps. I suspect there would have been more casualties if those camps were in session. Thankfully, they weren’t.

[Anonymous]

Texas Monthly’s Mimi Schwartz just published a piece about Dick and Tweety Eastland, the owners. A good read.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/dick-tweety-eastland-camp-mystic-legacy/?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Republican Congress member who represents this Texas flood prone area voted against more national funding for flood warning systems because it was too expensive…but yes, only the camp is to blame. /s

One such system exists in other flood-prone basins, where gauges in a cresting river automatically send alerts to a network of river sirens, which sound alarms across the area.

That’s technology that Kerrville officials say they have needed for years. But locals “reeled at the cost” of a county program, Kelly told PBS’s “Frontline,” and attempts to pay for it with state or federal funds failed.

In 2018, during the first Trump administration, Kerr County and the Upper Guadalupe River Authority applied to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) for about $1 million to build a flood warning system — and were denied, KXAN reported.
This year, a bill that would have spent $500 million on a modern system of disaster warnings across the state passed the House but died in the Senate. One House member who voted against it, first-term state Rep. Wes Virdell (R), represents Kerr County.

“I can tell you in hindsight, watching what it takes to deal with a disaster like this, my vote would probably be different now,” Virdell told The Texas Tribune on Sunday, adding that he had objected to the measure’s price tag.

That's hopeful. They learn from experience. (Like many people.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Republican Congress member who represents this Texas flood prone area voted against more national funding for flood warning systems because it was too expensive…but yes, only the camp is to blame. /s

One such system exists in other flood-prone basins, where gauges in a cresting river automatically send alerts to a network of river sirens, which sound alarms across the area.

That’s technology that Kerrville officials say they have needed for years. But locals “reeled at the cost” of a county program, Kelly told PBS’s “Frontline,” and attempts to pay for it with state or federal funds failed.

In 2018, during the first Trump administration, Kerr County and the Upper Guadalupe River Authority applied to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) for about $1 million to build a flood warning system — and were denied, KXAN reported.
This year, a bill that would have spent $500 million on a modern system of disaster warnings across the state passed the House but died in the Senate. One House member who voted against it, first-term state Rep. Wes Virdell (R), represents Kerr County.

“I can tell you in hindsight, watching what it takes to deal with a disaster like this, my vote would probably be different now,” Virdell told The Texas Tribune on Sunday, adding that he had objected to the measure’s price tag.

That's hopeful. They learn from experience. (Like many people.)

Memories of dead children will fade and most Texans will prefer to have a tax cut than to pay for safety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm from the south and understand camp culture and its importance to many families. I have multiple friends with some association to Camp Mystic as former campers, counselors, etc. It's not my thing, but I get it.

Here's what I don't understand.

This camp - and many camps in that area - have been there for 100 years. This is a big part of the tradition; campers literally stay in the same cabins that their moms, grandmothers, aunts, etc. did. They are not going to up and move the location of the camp. But, given the nature of the river and history of flooding there, why are they not better regulated? Are they inspected for safety, beyond the dining room kitchens? How do they get insurance being situated so close to the river as they are?

It seems to me that any of these privately held camps that host thousands of kids across the course of the summer would pay more attention to safety factors. I'm sure they do some sort of weather drills and training, etc. with their young staffs. But this is the kind of thing that needs to be reviewed and thought through on an annual basis. Why was no one awake that night, all night, watching the weather forecast? The warnings were there and they grew increasingly dire throughout the night. That should be standard operating procedure for any facility like this.

Is it common to have someone literally awake watching the weather forecast at any camp? I'm sure that many of y'all will become experts on the Camp Mystic Safety Manual as soon as it's available.

At the camp I attended there absolutely was a counselor tasked with being up all night for medical emergencies, weather, comms, etc. I’m floored there wasn’t someone looking out.

PP again. A counselor?? That's not good enough. If you have 850 CHILDREN as your responsibility, again sleeping out in the middle of the woods away from serious medical help, etc., for weeks at a time, there damn well should be a full staff of adult security guards.

The more I think about it, this is 100% on the camp. I hope parents are lining up lawsuits.

There were failures at many levels, federal, state, county, and local. A perfect storm.

Not really, there was a break in the federal level which never kicked off what would happen down the line. This fully is the fault of DOGE cuts and those who voted for it.

Here's what Heather Cox Richardson, who IME checks her sources quite carefully, reports:

"Immediately after the catastrophe became apparent, Texas officials began to blame cuts to the National Weather Service (NWS)—part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)—for causing inaccurate forecasts. The “Department of Government Efficiency” cut about 600 staffers from the NWS. After the cuts, the understaffed agency warned that “severe shortages” of meteorologists would hurt weather forecasting.

All five living former directors of the NWS warned in May that the cuts “[leave] the nation’s official weather forecasting entity at a significant deficit…just as we head into the busiest time for severe storm predictions like tornadoes and hurricanes…. Our worst nightmare is that weather forecast offices will be so understaffed that there will be needless loss of life.”

But former NWS officials maintain the forecasts were as accurate as possible and noted the storm escalated abruptly. They told Christopher Flavelle of the New York Times that the problem appeared to be that NWS had lost the staffers who would typically communicate with local authorities to spread the word of dangerous conditions. Molly Taft at Wired confirmed that NWS published flash flood warnings but safety officials didn’t send out public warnings until hours later.

Meanwhile, Kerr County’s most senior elected official, Judge Rob Kelly, focused on local officials, telling Flavelle that the county did not have a warning system because such systems are expensive and “[t]axpayers won’t pay for it.”

Those NWS-published flash flood warnings are what would have been broadcast on a weather radio, if one had been present.

You lost my when you bring up Heather Cox Richardson. Talk about someone with an agenda to push.

This may all be correct, even partially, but the fact remains that the camp DID KNOW ABOUT THE DANGERS OF THE STORM far earlier than they sufficienty reacted to it.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

DP here. As someone who largely agrees with Heather Cox Richardson politically, I find her extremely off-putting. I just do not like her tone or her writing style at all.

If you can refute anything she says with references, by all means do so.

Can you read? I’m not refuting her. I just think she’s grating.

Your inability to tolerate her tone is not germane to the discussion.

She isn’t relevant to this at all. That’s the point.

It's funny how long it took for you to arrive at that position.

A dispassionate, fact-checked rendering of what happened--and what entities appear most likely to be responsible--is very relevant. If you think her claims about that are wrong, refute them. Whining on about her tone is sub-collegiate discourse.

+1. When people can’t argue the facts, or don’t like what the facts were, they complain about inappropriateness of “tone” or that the time is inappropriate to discuss something as “unimportant” as facts. And that’s why a bunch of kids are dead in the USA when they shouldn’t be.

You're right. But it isnt anyone's fault. You can blame the government or you can blame the camp director or the counselor for not being awake and hearing the water rush in. It wasn't completely avoidable like, say, a school shooting is avoidable.

I think it’s at least partially the fault of the citizens of this Texas “flood alley” for being too cheap to pay for a siren system and other measures that other flood prone states have. As have been said upthread, this area of Texas has regularly had to have campers evacuated due to floods.

How are those low taxes looking given that 80+ people are dead?

+1 This flooding was unusual but not unprecedented.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if the parents onew the are is called flood alley. It really makes me think about all the decisions we make as parents assuming that other professionals know what they are doing and have made good choices. I assume “flood alley” wasn’t on their brochures.

There are countries much poorer that have tsunami warning alarms to avoid this sort of thing. I saw on WP comments someone mentioned a cheap radio that gets NWS alerts — I wonder if the camp admin had one? Knowing that the County opted not to install a warning system, you would think that the camp would have made extra efforts yo stay advised on potential floods. I also wondet of the camp was in the 100 year flood plain.

I follow a climate researcher on FB and he estimated that the rain volume was increased 5-20% by human caused climate change. I just think everyone needs to be congnizant of the fact that, with claimed change, you should look at what happened in the past and then figure it will be 25% worse. So if it previously went up 10 feet — figure at least 13 feet.