Favorite College that changes lives?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

This is 100% accurate.

IMO, the data is skewed. Typically, those who dropout are lower income students. What is the rate of lower income students among those schools?

I would venture to guess that JMU has proportionally more lower income students than these pricey SLACs because lower income students typically tend to commute rather than stay on campus. SLACs are usually not in heavily populated areas, so you have less commuters.

You would be wrong. That data was also already shared -- JMU's Pell share is the lowest of this particular set being discussed:

Pell %
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

And these LACs aren't "pricey" they all give merit aid and need aid and the average net price is on par with JMU. JMU is actually one of the worst among VA public Us in meeting financial need.

I'm not putting down JMU. I know a lot of kids who go there, love it, do well after graduation. Which also speaks to the reality that being a B student in HS doesn't mean you won't be successful.

[Anonymous]

I am originally from Ohio, so I know a lot of graduates from Hiram, Wooster, Dennison, and Ohio Wesleyan. I also visited the campuses for HS and college cross country meets. They all seem like normal, average liberal arts schools.

The people I know who went to Reed and Evergreen were stoners then and still are now. The people I know who went to St John’s are just strange in general.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am originally from Ohio, so I know a lot of graduates from Hiram, Wooster, Dennison, and Ohio Wesleyan. I also visited the campuses for HS and college cross country meets. They all seem like normal, average liberal arts schools.

The people I know who went to Reed and Evergreen were stoners then and still are now. The people I know who went to St John’s are just strange in general.

I always recognize you by how you misspell Denison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP. Weak rebuttal.

And ignores the data. From the same website:
Freshman pell share -
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

I think PP just has a problem with the existence of B students. Her kids are fortunate they never needed any support. I know the big schools can be fun and have the name recognition but I think most B students would probably get a better education at a smaller school that, yes, does some hand-holding and personal encouragement.

FWIW, I have one kid at Virginia Tech. He's having fun and getting a great education in his STEM major but I don't think he's learning to write well or learn much else about the world. He's able to take most of his general eds online and skate by. By the end of sophomore year he didn't know any professor enough to feel comfortable listing them as an academic reference. Obviously, that's on him. A student who takes the initiative can certainly be challenged, know professors, etc. He did eventually learn his lesson, now (a senior) has a job as a TA and last semester was able to pick a gen ed class that was somewhat related to his major and finally was excited by something other than math/data/programming.

CTCLs offer tremendous opportunities for one-on-one faculty interactions.

After not getting an internship in her field freshman year, my daughter wrote to 3 biology faculty at the beginning of her sophomore year. She asked if she could gain experience working in their labs. Everyone met with her within two weeks and she had 3 offers to choose from. That really set her on a very successful path in STEM.

i went to a no name brand "commuter" uni in the deep south. I did this too! By the time I graduated, I worked in three labs and had letters of reference from them. I now have a cost-free PhD in STEM from a name-brand uni. Did a fancy post doc and now run an org. My college changed my life and it was cheep and unfancy.

[Anonymous]

^^that's me. I'm reading this with interest b/c I have a bright kid with learning differences. Will need small/hands on and I can afford to pay now.

[Anonymous]

^^ and I published as an undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

This is 100% accurate.

IMO, the data is skewed. Typically, those who dropout are lower income students. What is the rate of lower income students among those schools?

I would venture to guess that JMU has proportionally more lower income students than these pricey SLACs because lower income students typically tend to commute rather than stay on campus. SLACs are usually not in heavily populated areas, so you have less commuters.

You would be wrong. That data was also already shared -- JMU's Pell share is the lowest of this particular set being discussed:

Pell %
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

And these LACs aren't "pricey" they all give merit aid and need aid and the average net price is on par with JMU. JMU is actually one of the worst among VA public Us in meeting financial need.

I'm not putting down JMU. I know a lot of kids who go there, love it, do well after graduation. Which also speaks to the reality that being a B student in HS doesn't mean you won't be successful.

Not to mention, that many of these schools have kids who are well above "B" students--they are just not the A+ in test scores, grades, ECs and the je ne sais quoi that gets you into the top schools--even top in-state publics. My eldest was a 'target' for in-state W&M admission (4.25/1430SAT/Well-regarded national award in area of interest), but if she hadn't gotten in ED--several of the LACs on this list were her choice above any other in-state public. We couldn't afford the more selective LACs that she could get into, but were less likely to offer her significant merit aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

This is 100% accurate.

IMO, the data is skewed. Typically, those who dropout are lower income students. What is the rate of lower income students among those schools?

I would venture to guess that JMU has proportionally more lower income students than these pricey SLACs because lower income students typically tend to commute rather than stay on campus. SLACs are usually not in heavily populated areas, so you have less commuters.

You would be wrong. That data was also already shared -- JMU's Pell share is the lowest of this particular set being discussed:

Pell %
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

And these LACs aren't "pricey" they all give merit aid and need aid and the average net price is on par with JMU. JMU is actually one of the worst among VA public Us in meeting financial need.

I'm not putting down JMU. I know a lot of kids who go there, love it, do well after graduation. Which also speaks to the reality that being a B student in HS doesn't mean you won't be successful.

Not to mention, that many of these schools have kids who are well above "B" students--they are just not the A+ in test scores, grades, ECs and the je ne sais quoi that gets you into the top schools--even top in-state publics. My eldest was a 'target' for in-state W&M admission (4.25/1430SAT/Well-regarded national award in area of interest), but if she hadn't gotten in ED--several of the LACs on this list were her choice above any other in-state public. We couldn't afford the more selective LACs that she could get into, but were less likely to offer her significant merit aid.

+1

Our CTCL DC was a high performer in HS (4.0UW, 1580 SAT) and chose the CTCL school because of the merit aid and undergrad research opportunities, as well as the club sports and small class sizes. DC graduated a few years ago and is doing a PhD at a well-regarded (T10 in the field) university now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP. Weak rebuttal.

And ignores the data. From the same website:
Freshman pell share -
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

I think PP just has a problem with the existence of B students. Her kids are fortunate they never needed any support. I know the big schools can be fun and have the name recognition but I think most B students would probably get a better education at a smaller school that, yes, does some hand-holding and personal encouragement.

FWIW, I have one kid at Virginia Tech. He's having fun and getting a great education in his STEM major but I don't think he's learning to write well or learn much else about the world. He's able to take most of his general eds online and skate by. By the end of sophomore year he didn't know any professor enough to feel comfortable listing them as an academic reference. Obviously, that's on him. A student who takes the initiative can certainly be challenged, know professors, etc. He did eventually learn his lesson, now (a senior) has a job as a TA and last semester was able to pick a gen ed class that was somewhat related to his major and finally was excited by something other than math/data/programming.

CTCLs offer tremendous opportunities for one-on-one faculty interactions.

After not getting an internship in her field freshman year, my daughter wrote to 3 biology faculty at the beginning of her sophomore year. She asked if she could gain experience working in their labs. Everyone met with her within two weeks and she had 3 offers to choose from. That really set her on a very successful path in STEM.

i went to a no name brand "commuter" uni in the deep south. I did this too! By the time I graduated, I worked in three labs and had letters of reference from them. I now have a cost-free PhD in STEM from a name-brand uni. Did a fancy post doc and now run an org. My college changed my life and it was cheep and unfancy.

DP: This is totally possible in many places, but one of the strengths of these places is they have it as the norm and they smooth barriers. I think the opportunities may also likely a little higher for a student like you in a non-fancy commuter school than a top public because they likely have fewer students as motivated and angling for the positions. A friend's kid is currently at UVA and they have applied for 20+ on campus research opportunities and each time they get a rejection letter talking about how many strong applications there were and it's often like 75-100 apps from other really smart capable students. I know as they move up in their department there are some ways to get involved in research built into their curriculum so it will eventually work out for them but they are now midway through their sophomore year and it's been disheartening for them and is making them questioning pursuing their science major etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP. Weak rebuttal.

And ignores the data. From the same website:
Freshman pell share -
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

I think PP just has a problem with the existence of B students. Her kids are fortunate they never needed any support. I know the big schools can be fun and have the name recognition but I think most B students would probably get a better education at a smaller school that, yes, does some hand-holding and personal encouragement.

FWIW, I have one kid at Virginia Tech. He's having fun and getting a great education in his STEM major but I don't think he's learning to write well or learn much else about the world. He's able to take most of his general eds online and skate by. By the end of sophomore year he didn't know any professor enough to feel comfortable listing them as an academic reference. Obviously, that's on him. A student who takes the initiative can certainly be challenged, know professors, etc. He did eventually learn his lesson, now (a senior) has a job as a TA and last semester was able to pick a gen ed class that was somewhat related to his major and finally was excited by something other than math/data/programming.

CTCLs offer tremendous opportunities for one-on-one faculty interactions.

After not getting an internship in her field freshman year, my daughter wrote to 3 biology faculty at the beginning of her sophomore year. She asked if she could gain experience working in their labs. Everyone met with her within two weeks and she had 3 offers to choose from. That really set her on a very successful path in STEM.

i went to a no name brand "commuter" uni in the deep south. I did this too! By the time I graduated, I worked in three labs and had letters of reference from them. I now have a cost-free PhD in STEM from a name-brand uni. Did a fancy post doc and now run an org. My college changed my life and it was cheep and unfancy.

DP: This is totally possible in many places, but one of the strengths of these places is they have it as the norm and they smooth barriers. I think the opportunities may also likely a little higher for a student like you in a non-fancy commuter school than a top public because they likely have fewer students as motivated and angling for the positions. A friend's kid is currently at UVA and they have applied for 20+ on campus research opportunities and each time they get a rejection letter talking about how many strong applications there were and it's often like 75-100 apps from other really smart capable students. I know as they move up in their department there are some ways to get involved in research built into their curriculum so it will eventually work out for them but they are now midway through their sophomore year and it's been disheartening for them and is making them questioning pursuing their science major etc.

+1 Other schools might offer the CTCL experience but it’s an exception not the norm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP. Weak rebuttal.

And ignores the data. From the same website:
Freshman pell share -
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

I think PP just has a problem with the existence of B students. Her kids are fortunate they never needed any support. I know the big schools can be fun and have the name recognition but I think most B students would probably get a better education at a smaller school that, yes, does some hand-holding and personal encouragement.

FWIW, I have one kid at Virginia Tech. He's having fun and getting a great education in his STEM major but I don't think he's learning to write well or learn much else about the world. He's able to take most of his general eds online and skate by. By the end of sophomore year he didn't know any professor enough to feel comfortable listing them as an academic reference. Obviously, that's on him. A student who takes the initiative can certainly be challenged, know professors, etc. He did eventually learn his lesson, now (a senior) has a job as a TA and last semester was able to pick a gen ed class that was somewhat related to his major and finally was excited by something other than math/data/programming.

CTCLs offer tremendous opportunities for one-on-one faculty interactions.

After not getting an internship in her field freshman year, my daughter wrote to 3 biology faculty at the beginning of her sophomore year. She asked if she could gain experience working in their labs. Everyone met with her within two weeks and she had 3 offers to choose from. That really set her on a very successful path in STEM.

i went to a no name brand "commuter" uni in the deep south. I did this too! By the time I graduated, I worked in three labs and had letters of reference from them. I now have a cost-free PhD in STEM from a name-brand uni. Did a fancy post doc and now run an org. My college changed my life and it was cheep and unfancy.

DP: This is totally possible in many places, but one of the strengths of these places is they have it as the norm and they smooth barriers. I think the opportunities may also likely a little higher for a student like you in a non-fancy commuter school than a top public because they likely have fewer students as motivated and angling for the positions. A friend's kid is currently at UVA and they have applied for 20+ on campus research opportunities and each time they get a rejection letter talking about how many strong applications there were and it's often like 75-100 apps from other really smart capable students. I know as they move up in their department there are some ways to get involved in research built into their curriculum so it will eventually work out for them but they are now midway through their sophomore year and it's been disheartening for them and is making them questioning pursuing their science major etc.

Good point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

This is 100% accurate.

IMO, the data is skewed. Typically, those who dropout are lower income students. What is the rate of lower income students among those schools?

I would venture to guess that JMU has proportionally more lower income students than these pricey SLACs because lower income students typically tend to commute rather than stay on campus. SLACs are usually not in heavily populated areas, so you have less commuters.

You would be wrong. That data was also already shared -- JMU's Pell share is the lowest of this particular set being discussed:

Pell %
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

And these LACs aren't "pricey" they all give merit aid and need aid and the average net price is on par with JMU. JMU is actually one of the worst among VA public Us in meeting financial need.

I'm not putting down JMU. I know a lot of kids who go there, love it, do well after graduation. Which also speaks to the reality that being a B student in HS doesn't mean you won't be successful.

Pell grant would be proportional to cost of attendance. Those LACs are more pricier than JMU. Hence, the reason why more qualify for those pell grants at the pricier LACs. They give merit aid because they are pricey; JMU doesn't have to do that.

You really would have to look at income level of the students who go there, not necessarily how many get pell grants, to understand the numbers.

Like I said, typically, lower income students drop out at a higher rate compared to others. You aren't getting a lot of low income students who need to commute in those LACs compared to schools like JMU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that financial stability is important, and I was actually curious about how these colleges fare on that metric. I plugged in each of the schools to Forbes (2023 financial grades) -- the list is below.

Personally, I have some quibbles with Forbes's letter grades, mostly bc the rounding seems generous (for example: Hiram's 2.84 counts as a B, and Lynchburg's 3.23 is a B+). So the numeric grades are useful context.

Anyway, here's the list:

Agnes Scott: A+ (4.31)
Allegheny: A (3.96)
Antioch - not graded
Austin College: A- (3.83)
Bard: A (4.03)
Beloit: B (3.05)
Birmingham Southern: C- (1.61)
Centre: A+ (4.27)
Clark University: A (3.92)
Cornell College: B+ (3.35)
Denison: A+ (4.45)
Earlham: A+ (4.32)
Eckerd: B- (2.77)
Emory & Henry: A- (3.65)
Evergreen State: not rated
Goucher: A (3.93)
Guilford: B (2.99)
Hampshire: A- (3.99)
Hendrix: A (3.93)
Hillsdale: A (4.50)
Hiram: B (2.84)
Hope: A- (3.81)
Juniata: A- (3.53)
Kalamazoo: A (4.06)
Knox: A (4.04)
Lawrence: A+ (4.19)
McDaniel: A (3.52)
Millsaps: A (3.93)
New College of Florida: not rated
Ohio Wesleyan: A (3.97)
Reed: A+ (4.50)
Rhodes: A (4.17)
Southwestern: A (4.07)
St. John's College: A+ (4.24)
St. Mary's College of California: A- (3.72)
St. Olaf: A+ (4.31)
University of Lynchburg: B+ (3.23)
University Puget Sound: A (4.05)
Ursinus: B+ (3.46)
Wabash: A+ (4.27)
Wheaton IL: A+ (4.50)
Whitman: A+ (4.32)
Willamette: A (3.88)
Wooster: A (4.06)

That's really interesting to compare. I thought some of those were a lot less sound than they are. Very few seem on the brink. I think it's possible that colleges on this list and ones with similar focus may be better-positioned to maneuver than larger state schools facing budget cuts and consolidations, or smaller schools with more prestige who demand full freight.

I don't see schools entirely populated only by very rich and very poor students to be sustainable, or conducive to learning.

Yeah, this whole list seems sus to me because I know Earlham's stats were just terrible a few years ago. Obviously they have worked to turn it around, but an A+?
And no hate on Earlham, I went there and it was great for me. But they've struggled with leadership and enrollment in recent years, and the town is not great. But I have friends sending their kids there and they all report a good experience, so maybe I'm being too pesimistic.

They did a big reset a few years back. I remember it was kind of a thing. But maybe it worked? (In which case, is Earlham a success story? Or something else bc a reset was needed? A Rorschach test of a question!).

Earlham does have a very nice endowment — I think it’s upwards of half a million per student. That probably helps with the numbers.

[Anonymous]

Evergreen has changed wrt students it attracts. It’s not bad, it’s just different than 30 years ago. Less “outdoorsy” for example. Visit to decide if it’s for you.

[Anonymous]

While I don't have direct experience with Knox College, I know a (Millennial-age) graduate who's not just smart and successful (without a graduate degree), but one of those polymath types who seems to know a whole lot about all kinds of things. It seems like it was a great match for her.