Favorite College that changes lives?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Evidence for this claim??? That's not the vibe of these schools at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

One difference is that VA sends more of its students to college. In some states, only the top half or whatever percent go to college at all. So VA total college applicants are less likely to be in the top quarter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

One difference is that VA sends more of its students to college. In some states, only the top half or whatever percent go to college at all. So VA total college applicants are less likely to be in the top quarter.

I couldn't easily find robust consistent data on this, but from what I saw it looks to me like Virginia has about 4% more percent students going to college immediately after high school than MI. VI is not as high as many other east coast states, but is about 5-6% above the national average. I wonder too how community college enrollment varies too--I often hear it touted that Virginia has very robust community college numbers, which are included in "going to college" percentages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

One difference is that VA sends more of its students to college. In some states, only the top half or whatever percent go to college at all. So VA total college applicants are less likely to be in the top quarter.

I couldn't easily find robust consistent data on this, but from what I saw it looks to me like Virginia has about 4% more percent students going to college immediately after high school than MI. VI is not as high as many other east coast states, but is about 5-6% above the national average. I wonder too how community college enrollment varies too--I often hear it touted that Virginia has very robust community college numbers, which are included in "going to college" percentages.

Editing: VA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that financial stability is important, and I was actually curious about how these colleges fare on that metric. I plugged in each of the schools to Forbes (2023 financial grades) -- the list is below.

Personally, I have some quibbles with Forbes's letter grades, mostly bc the rounding seems generous (for example: Hiram's 2.84 counts as a B, and Lynchburg's 3.23 is a B+). So the numeric grades are useful context.

Anyway, here's the list:

Agnes Scott: A+ (4.31)
Allegheny: A (3.96)
Antioch - not graded
Austin College: A- (3.83)
Bard: A (4.03)
Beloit: B (3.05)
Birmingham Southern: C- (1.61)
Centre: A+ (4.27)
Clark University: A (3.92)
Cornell College: B+ (3.35)
Denison: A+ (4.45)
Earlham: A+ (4.32)
Eckerd: B- (2.77)
Emory & Henry: A- (3.65)
Evergreen State: not rated
Goucher: A (3.93)
Guilford: B (2.99)
Hampshire: A- (3.99)
Hendrix: A (3.93)
Hillsdale: A (4.50)
Hiram: B (2.84)
Hope: A- (3.81)
Juniata: A- (3.53)
Kalamazoo: A (4.06)
Knox: A (4.04)
Lawrence: A+ (4.19)
McDaniel: A (3.52)
Millsaps: A (3.93)
New College of Florida: not rated
Ohio Wesleyan: A (3.97)
Reed: A+ (4.50)
Rhodes: A (4.17)
Southwestern: A (4.07)
St. John's College: A+ (4.24)
St. Mary's College of California: A- (3.72)
St. Olaf: A+ (4.31)
University of Lynchburg: B+ (3.23)
University Puget Sound: A (4.05)
Ursinus: B+ (3.46)
Wabash: A+ (4.27)
Wheaton IL: A+ (4.50)
Whitman: A+ (4.32)
Willamette: A (3.88)
Wooster: A (4.06)

That's really interesting to compare. I thought some of those were a lot less sound than they are. Very few seem on the brink. I think it's possible that colleges on this list and ones with similar focus may be better-positioned to maneuver than larger state schools facing budget cuts and consolidations, or smaller schools with more prestige who demand full freight.

I don't see schools entirely populated only by very rich and very poor students to be sustainable, or conducive to learning.

Yeah, this whole list seems sus to me because I know Earlham's stats were just terrible a few years ago. Obviously they have worked to turn it around, but an A+?
And no hate on Earlham, I went there and it was great for me. But they've struggled with leadership and enrollment in recent years, and the town is not great. But I have friends sending their kids there and they all report a good experience, so maybe I'm being too pesimistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

Name the schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to Kalamazoo College ("K") and left after a quarter. It's a provincial LAC with a lot of students who aren't all that bright.

I know two very bright students there right now. One who is going on to an excellent grad school. Maybe a quarter wasn't enough for you to get a good sense of it?

I had a good sense of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that financial stability is important, and I was actually curious about how these colleges fare on that metric. I plugged in each of the schools to Forbes (2023 financial grades) -- the list is below.

Personally, I have some quibbles with Forbes's letter grades, mostly bc the rounding seems generous (for example: Hiram's 2.84 counts as a B, and Lynchburg's 3.23 is a B+). So the numeric grades are useful context.

Anyway, here's the list:

Agnes Scott: A+ (4.31)
Allegheny: A (3.96)
Antioch - not graded
Austin College: A- (3.83)
Bard: A (4.03)
Beloit: B (3.05)
Birmingham Southern: C- (1.61)
Centre: A+ (4.27)
Clark University: A (3.92)
Cornell College: B+ (3.35)
Denison: A+ (4.45)
Earlham: A+ (4.32)
Eckerd: B- (2.77)
Emory & Henry: A- (3.65)
Evergreen State: not rated
Goucher: A (3.93)
Guilford: B (2.99)
Hampshire: A- (3.99)
Hendrix: A (3.93)
Hillsdale: A (4.50)
Hiram: B (2.84)
Hope: A- (3.81)
Juniata: A- (3.53)
Kalamazoo: A (4.06)
Knox: A (4.04)
Lawrence: A+ (4.19)
McDaniel: A (3.52)
Millsaps: A (3.93)
New College of Florida: not rated
Ohio Wesleyan: A (3.97)
Reed: A+ (4.50)
Rhodes: A (4.17)
Southwestern: A (4.07)
St. John's College: A+ (4.24)
St. Mary's College of California: A- (3.72)
St. Olaf: A+ (4.31)
University of Lynchburg: B+ (3.23)
University Puget Sound: A (4.05)
Ursinus: B+ (3.46)
Wabash: A+ (4.27)
Wheaton IL: A+ (4.50)
Whitman: A+ (4.32)
Willamette: A (3.88)
Wooster: A (4.06)

That's really interesting to compare. I thought some of those were a lot less sound than they are. Very few seem on the brink. I think it's possible that colleges on this list and ones with similar focus may be better-positioned to maneuver than larger state schools facing budget cuts and consolidations, or smaller schools with more prestige who demand full freight.

I don't see schools entirely populated only by very rich and very poor students to be sustainable, or conducive to learning.

Yeah, this whole list seems sus to me because I know Earlham's stats were just terrible a few years ago. Obviously they have worked to turn it around, but an A+?
And no hate on Earlham, I went there and it was great for me. But they've struggled with leadership and enrollment in recent years, and the town is not great. But I have friends sending their kids there and they all report a good experience, so maybe I'm being too pesimistic.

I think you're being too pessimistic. These financial grades are based on data--and include things like the rates for bonds etc. that are pretty hard-nosed because they involve institutions saying at what rate you will be lent money.
I think what happens is that people read the news reports when a school like Earlham experiences financial troubles--often because something expensive happened or they are overstaffed or the current leadership made a bad decision etc. and the link it in their mind with this alarm about colleges closing etc.

But what a school like Earlham with a long robust history does, is what any organization does, they address it, trim expenses, seek new sources of funding and then they are in good financial shape again. Middlebury was in the same situation too for a bit.
But the colleges closing/likely to close are things like regional publics that the state turns into something else, small under-enrolled religious schools that a church owns and can sell, culinary and art institutes, tiny niche schools with odd histories ( Vermont has some of these --schools with well under 1000 students that switched from 2 year schools to 4 year schools like Green Mountain or "correspondence schools" that tried to become full on colleges but experienced financial hardship). Private LACs with a long history as a 4 year institution may need to adapt some of their strategies, but they have stayed on mission often since the mid 1800s--adapting all along throughout. They are all going to need to adapt further as the demographic cliff hits, but they've been preparing for it for a long time now, so they are likely ready. I actually think regional publics are more challenged because they don't have the same autonomy as a private LAC who just needs to provide educational missions according to their accrediting bodies but aren't subject to the whims and budgets of state governments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

This is 100% accurate.

IMO, the data is skewed. Typically, those who dropout are lower income students. What is the rate of lower income students among those schools?

I would venture to guess that JMU has proportionally more lower income students than these pricey SLACs because lower income students typically tend to commute rather than stay on campus. SLACs are usually not in heavily populated areas, so you have less commuters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

My kid (who chose a CTCL) is extremely hard working, and based her choice on their generous merit aid package (because she knew that her longterm plan included grad school).

I think affluent families may care more about ranking/status. My kid was practical, and prioritized fit and the quality of education she would receive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

This is 100% accurate.

IMO, the data is skewed. Typically, those who dropout are lower income students. What is the rate of lower income students among those schools?

I would venture to guess that JMU has proportionally more lower income students than these pricey SLACs because lower income students typically tend to commute rather than stay on campus. SLACs are usually not in heavily populated areas, so you have less commuters.

JMU doesn't have a huge local population around it that aren't already college students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP. Weak rebuttal.

And ignores the data. From the same website:
Freshman pell share -
JMU 15%
Ursinus 18%
UMW 17%
Kalamazoo 25%
Juniata 26%

I think PP just has a problem with the existence of B students. Her kids are fortunate they never needed any support. I know the big schools can be fun and have the name recognition but I think most B students would probably get a better education at a smaller school that, yes, does some hand-holding and personal encouragement.

FWIW, I have one kid at Virginia Tech. He's having fun and getting a great education in his STEM major but I don't think he's learning to write well or learn much else about the world. He's able to take most of his general eds online and skate by. By the end of sophomore year he didn't know any professor enough to feel comfortable listing them as an academic reference. Obviously, that's on him. A student who takes the initiative can certainly be challenged, know professors, etc. He did eventually learn his lesson, now (a senior) has a job as a TA and last semester was able to pick a gen ed class that was somewhat related to his major and finally was excited by something other than math/data/programming.

CTCLs offer tremendous opportunities for one-on-one faculty interactions.

After not getting an internship in her field freshman year, my daughter wrote to 3 biology faculty at the beginning of her sophomore year. She asked if she could gain experience working in their labs. Everyone met with her within two weeks and she had 3 offers to choose from. That really set her on a very successful path in STEM.