Test optional is total BS

[Anonymous]

50% at Harvard
ELA 760
Math 790


This is class of 26

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:50% at Harvard
ELA 760
Math 790


This is class of 26

For a fuller perspective, the middle 50 percentiles are ELA 730-780 and math 760-800

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:just listen very carefully to AOs when asked this question - and they're all asked it.

we've heard quite a lot of top 20 presenters say, "my advice is to look up our numbers from last year, and submit if you're at 50% or higher"

they want their averages to go up - it works for their rankings.

Sounds like you are describing a game of Blackjack.

If don't gamble it works like this:

Try to get as close to 21 without going over. Whoever has the highest number wins.

The trick is in inducing the other players to keep reaching for higher numbers until they break through 21 and are out of the game.

Most people think they can only win with a 21. People who gamble for a living win with 16s all the time.

I used to gamble. You're kind of right. I lost a lot of money once because I surrendered at 17. I was totally convinced everyone else was holding higher cards. I took myself out of the game and the guy who won the pot was holding a 15. He beat me with mind games.

This is not at all how blackjack works.

Maybe not with your grandma. Go to a casino and play for real money against real gamblers

https://www.casino.org/blog/when-should-you-surrender-in-blackjack/

Oh man... the whole surrender thing has always been so iffy. The CCC had big problems regulating that. Big problems. Big Big problems.

But here is a tip. If you're holding a 17 or better just play the hand. You don't need a 21 to win.

A 17 in Blackjack is like a 1300 on the SAT. You probably won't win with it but it isn't impossible.

17 -> 1300
18 -> 1380
19 -> 1460
20 -> 1520
21 -> 1600

This is fun!

You are wasting everyone's time with your posts indicating you don't know a thing about Blackjack. You DO play (hit for another card) a 17 because of the likelihood that the next card will put you at 21 or slightly below. And, yes, you play against the house, not anyone else.

Almost 70% chance you bust if you hit a 17. I would only do that at the end of the night if my stack was almost gone.

Get a calculator dude

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:50% at Harvard
ELA 760
Math 790


This is class of 26

For a fuller perspective, the middle 50 percentiles are ELA 730-780 and math 760-800

This is not how numbers work.
25% is 730 ela and 760 math.

This doesn’t mean the 50% spans the 25-75 range. At all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:just listen very carefully to AOs when asked this question - and they're all asked it.

we've heard quite a lot of top 20 presenters say, "my advice is to look up our numbers from last year, and submit if you're at 50% or higher"

they want their averages to go up - it works for their rankings.

Sounds like you are describing a game of Blackjack.

If don't gamble it works like this:

Try to get as close to 21 without going over. Whoever has the highest number wins.

The trick is in inducing the other players to keep reaching for higher numbers until they break through 21 and are out of the game.

Most people think they can only win with a 21. People who gamble for a living win with 16s all the time.

I’m not describing that at all. Test scores are becoming as relevant to top 40 schools as major math awards. You are not dinged by not ever participating (gambling). You are awarded for being top winner (1540+). Schools like to say they have this many debate champs, history day winners, math medalists. And that 1550 avg matters to their marketing and ranking.

But opting out of all of it doesn’t hurt and will soon be standard.

A quote from the Harvard Crimson

Admitted students from the Class of 2025 had an average SAT score of 1494 and an average ACT score of 34. These numbers varied significantly along athlete and income status. Recruited athletes had an average SAT score of 1397, whereas non-athletes averaged 1501. The average SAT score of students with family income under $40,000 was 1443, while those with a family income of more than $500,000 averaged 1520. Legacy students also had a higher average SAT score than non-legacy students, at 1523 for legacy students and 1491 for non-legacy students.

Nobody but nobody needs a 1540 to get in. Opting out may not hurt. But folks should be clear-eyed about the facts. You don't even need a 1500 to get into these schools. This whole conceit that schools want you to apply test optional if you don't have a 1540+ is wrong.

White, asian and unhooked do. You could have mentioned that the 75th percentile at harvard university was a 1580, meaning 25 percent had higher. Harvard SAT Score Analysis (New 1600 SAT). My valedictorian (real valedictorian) legacy kid had a 36 and didn't get in - but we couldn't afford to donate large amounts so it was anticipated
The 25th percentile New SAT score is 1460, and the 75th percentile SAT score is 1580.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:just listen very carefully to AOs when asked this question - and they're all asked it.

we've heard quite a lot of top 20 presenters say, "my advice is to look up our numbers from last year, and submit if you're at 50% or higher"

they want their averages to go up - it works for their rankings.

Pretty much

Outside of the top 40 colleges, no one gives a damn about test scores.

But for those top 40 schools, it matters a lot. And they want those 1580s and 35s. It sucks for smart kids. There's so much pressure right now.

TO is a disaster for smart and ambitious students. But it's a big win for top 40 colleges. They get to admit their garbage students AND they keep their numbers up. It's hard to look at schools like UCLA and Berkeley with any kind of respect at the undergrad level. A lottery for mediocrity.

Respect to MIT, Georgia Tech, Georgetown and the other schools still demanding test scores.

SAT and ACT scores have been well-proven as indicators of intelligence and likelihood of success in college. The situation is regrettable.

So you have no respect for CalTech?

What pressure? SAT is a great scam for the people who are good at math and reading. It's the easiest route through the admissions game, bypassing "work in a professional lab" and "found a nonprofit" and "be top 10 in an absurdly narrow specialization".

But isn't math and reading the primary core of college?

Sure but maybe colleges think the SAT/ACT is at best an imperfect measure of that and they want to see all applicants regardless of score because they believe they can do their job without it. But I’m sure all the experts here who have admitted no one to a college know better.

DP, just following this exchange. Are you in college counselor or work in admissions? I do appreciate your insights if that’s the case. The one thing I have come to understand, is that this discussion really DEPENDS on the institution. Most colleges worry about filling seats, especially from those who can pay tuition. They are more than happy to get rid of SATs.

The most selective colleges obviously have market power and some want SATs and some don’t. It’s hard to talk about this in such general terms.

[Anonymous]

Harvard's own statistics show that the average Asian APPLICANT submits a 1450 or better. The average White a 1425. All the way down to 1250.

The average of those that are ACCEPTED follow the same line on a chart.

The typical Asian family just won't apply (or will apply test optional) if they don't have a 97th percentile score. That is cultural. The typical African American family will apply with an 80th or better percentile score. That is also cultural.

People hold themselves to different standards.

I don't have statistics on African immigrant families but anecdotally I will say they are more like Asian families and they don't use their scores unless they are high percentile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:just listen very carefully to AOs when asked this question - and they're all asked it.

we've heard quite a lot of top 20 presenters say, "my advice is to look up our numbers from last year, and submit if you're at 50% or higher"

they want their averages to go up - it works for their rankings.

Sounds like you are describing a game of Blackjack.

If don't gamble it works like this:

Try to get as close to 21 without going over. Whoever has the highest number wins.

The trick is in inducing the other players to keep reaching for higher numbers until they break through 21 and are out of the game.

Most people think they can only win with a 21. People who gamble for a living win with 16s all the time.

I’m not describing that at all. Test scores are becoming as relevant to top 40 schools as major math awards. You are not dinged by not ever participating (gambling). You are awarded for being top winner (1540+). Schools like to say they have this many debate champs, history day winners, math medalists. And that 1550 avg matters to their marketing and ranking.

But opting out of all of it doesn’t hurt and will soon be standard.

A quote from the Harvard Crimson

Admitted students from the Class of 2025 had an average SAT score of 1494 and an average ACT score of 34. These numbers varied significantly along athlete and income status. Recruited athletes had an average SAT score of 1397, whereas non-athletes averaged 1501. The average SAT score of students with family income under $40,000 was 1443, while those with a family income of more than $500,000 averaged 1520. Legacy students also had a higher average SAT score than non-legacy students, at 1523 for legacy students and 1491 for non-legacy students.

Nobody but nobody needs a 1540 to get in. Opting out may not hurt. But folks should be clear-eyed about the facts. You don't even need a 1500 to get into these schools. This whole conceit that schools want you to apply test optional if you don't have a 1540+ is wrong.

White, asian and unhooked do. You could have mentioned that the 75th percentile at harvard university was a 1580, meaning 25 percent had higher. Harvard SAT Score Analysis (New 1600 SAT). My valedictorian (real valedictorian) legacy kid had a 36 and didn't get in - but we couldn't afford to donate large amounts so it was anticipated
The 25th percentile New SAT score is 1460, and the 75th percentile SAT score is 1580.

If your legacy kid didn’t get in it had nothing to do with the lack of large donations. But if helps you sleep at night keep believing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:we're a cycle away from 60% of people not submitting. and probably three cycles away from most people not bothering to even take it unless PSAT shows you're already about there. just not worth the squeeze.

You're likely more right than wrong here.

People aren't coming to terms with the prospect of test optional becoming more entrenched ( including most of the selective colleges) in the admissions process going forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:just listen very carefully to AOs when asked this question - and they're all asked it.

we've heard quite a lot of top 20 presenters say, "my advice is to look up our numbers from last year, and submit if you're at 50% or higher"

they want their averages to go up - it works for their rankings.

Pretty much

Outside of the top 40 colleges, no one gives a damn about test scores.

But for those top 40 schools, it matters a lot. And they want those 1580s and 35s. It sucks for smart kids. There's so much pressure right now.

TO is a disaster for smart and ambitious students. But it's a big win for top 40 colleges. They get to admit their garbage students AND they keep their numbers up. It's hard to look at schools like UCLA and Berkeley with any kind of respect at the undergrad level. A lottery for mediocrity.

Respect to MIT, Georgia Tech, Georgetown and the other schools still demanding test scores.

SAT and ACT scores have been well-proven as indicators of intelligence and likelihood of success in college. The situation is regrettable.

A student can be "smart and ambitious" without a standardized test score.

It's just one data point. There are many other factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:we're a cycle away from 60% of people not submitting. and probably three cycles away from most people not bothering to even take it unless PSAT shows you're already about there. just not worth the squeeze.

You're likely more right than wrong here.

People aren't coming to terms with the prospect of test optional becoming more entrenched ( including most of the selective colleges) in the admissions process going forward.

Test optional is great but I think a lot of people applying test optional don't even need to be. Fearmongers are convincing people not to use good scores. Why are they doing this? I'm starting to think it is people who hate testing so much that they are trying to make the tests useless

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:we're a cycle away from 60% of people not submitting. and probably three cycles away from most people not bothering to even take it unless PSAT shows you're already about there. just not worth the squeeze.

You're likely more right than wrong here.

People aren't coming to terms with the prospect of test optional becoming more entrenched ( including most of the selective colleges) in the admissions process going forward.

Test optional is great but I think a lot of people applying test optional don't even need to be. Fearmongers are convincing people not to use good scores. Why are they doing this? I'm starting to think it is people who hate testing so much that they are trying to make the tests useless

No, I think they are just trying to convince you to not submit your 1450 so that they can use their 1490

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:we're a cycle away from 60% of people not submitting. and probably three cycles away from most people not bothering to even take it unless PSAT shows you're already about there. just not worth the squeeze.

You're likely more right than wrong here.

People aren't coming to terms with the prospect of test optional becoming more entrenched ( including most of the selective colleges) in the admissions process going forward.

Test optional is great but I think a lot of people applying test optional don't even need to be. Fearmongers are convincing people not to use good scores. Why are they doing this? I'm starting to think it is people who hate testing so much that they are trying to make the tests useless

No, I think they are just trying to convince you to not submit your 1450 so that they can use their 1490

DP. +1, though perhaps they are just trying to convince you not to submit your 1450 so they don't feel bad applying test optional with their 1380.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:just listen very carefully to AOs when asked this question - and they're all asked it.

we've heard quite a lot of top 20 presenters say, "my advice is to look up our numbers from last year, and submit if you're at 50% or higher"

they want their averages to go up - it works for their rankings.

Sounds like you are describing a game of Blackjack.

If don't gamble it works like this:

Try to get as close to 21 without going over. Whoever has the highest number wins.

The trick is in inducing the other players to keep reaching for higher numbers until they break through 21 and are out of the game.

Most people think they can only win with a 21. People who gamble for a living win with 16s all the time.

I’m not describing that at all. Test scores are becoming as relevant to top 40 schools as major math awards. You are not dinged by not ever participating (gambling). You are awarded for being top winner (1540+). Schools like to say they have this many debate champs, history day winners, math medalists. And that 1550 avg matters to their marketing and ranking.

But opting out of all of it doesn’t hurt and will soon be standard.

A quote from the Harvard Crimson

Admitted students from the Class of 2025 had an average SAT score of 1494 and an average ACT score of 34. These numbers varied significantly along athlete and income status. Recruited athletes had an average SAT score of 1397, whereas non-athletes averaged 1501. The average SAT score of students with family income under $40,000 was 1443, while those with a family income of more than $500,000 averaged 1520. Legacy students also had a higher average SAT score than non-legacy students, at 1523 for legacy students and 1491 for non-legacy students.

Nobody but nobody needs a 1540 to get in. Opting out may not hurt. But folks should be clear-eyed about the facts. You don't even need a 1500 to get into these schools. This whole conceit that schools want you to apply test optional if you don't have a 1540+ is wrong.

The schools aren't saying this.

The test prep companies and tutors are.

Rational people like most of the college counselors are citing the 50% in CDS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Harvard's own statistics show that the average Asian APPLICANT submits a 1450 or better. The average White a 1425. All the way down to 1250.

The average of those that are ACCEPTED follow the same line on a chart.

The typical Asian family just won't apply (or will apply test optional) if they don't have a 97th percentile score. That is cultural. The typical African American family will apply with an 80th or better percentile score. That is also cultural.

People hold themselves to different standards.

I don't have statistics on African immigrant families but anecdotally I will say they are more like Asian families and they don't use their scores unless they are high percentile.

And this was before TO ramped things up