Bikes lanes poorly designed - unsafe for drivers and bikers

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

What an absolutely ghoulish thing to write. Every road death represents a life tragically cut short. Those lives may not mean much to you, but they do to so many others. What is especially tragic is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if we had better infrastructure and more rigorous enforcement of road regulations, especially speeding.

Uh huh. While you hyperventilate about drivers, it’s worth noting that the number of cyclists killed in this city is minuscule. It’s amazing it’s not higher given all the stupid things cyclists do.

The number of children murdered in this city dwarfs the number of cyclists killed. But sure let’s all focus on that one white guy on a bike who got hit by a car three years ago

These are completely unrelated policy questions, though. We can be furious at children being murdered but also think the roads could be safer to bike on.

Except that’s not what happens *at all*. All the attention and a stunning amount of money goes to the white guy on a bike who is an adult who voluntarily chose to do something that everyone knows is dangerous. Every public dollar spent on one thing like subsidizing the hobbies of Bernie bros is a dollar that can’t be spent on another thing.

Can you imagine how the family of this man would feel reading the tripe you’ve just posted?: https://www.wusa9.com/amp/article/news/local/maryland/gregory-mccullom-family-investigation-prince-georges-county/65-aabd87a9-f691-475e-a841-433bdbca85b9

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

What an absolutely ghoulish thing to write. Every road death represents a life tragically cut short. Those lives may not mean much to you, but they do to so many others. What is especially tragic is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if we had better infrastructure and more rigorous enforcement of road regulations, especially speeding.

Uh huh. While you hyperventilate about drivers, it’s worth noting that the number of cyclists killed in this city is minuscule. It’s amazing it’s not higher given all the stupid things cyclists do.

The number of children murdered in this city dwarfs the number of cyclists killed. But sure let’s all focus on that one white guy on a bike who got hit by a car three years ago

These are completely unrelated policy questions, though. We can be furious at children being murdered but also think the roads could be safer to bike on.

Except that’s not what happens *at all*. All the attention and a stunning amount of money goes to the white guy on a bike who is an adult who voluntarily chose to do something that everyone knows is dangerous. Every public dollar spent on one thing like subsidizing the hobbies of Bernie bros is a dollar that can’t be spent on another thing.

Can you imagine how the family of this man would feel reading the tripe you’ve just posted?: https://www.wusa9.com/amp/article/news/local/maryland/gregory-mccullom-family-investigation-prince-georges-county/65-aabd87a9-f691-475e-a841-433bdbca85b9

Right? Anyone making these stupid posts trying to race-bait on the subject of biking needs to go to Hains Point one day to see that, shocker, biking is a past-time shared by all races. If you don’t see/know any black cyclists, it’s because you probably mostly live in all-white spaces.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

How cute. But no. The DC cyclist who ran a red light and knocked into a woman who later died was ticketed for disobeying a traffic signal and was subsequently sued into bankruptcy. The cyclist who got into a drunken altercation with a driver and ended up hitting him with his bike lock was convicted of a hate crime and sentenced to 5 years in prison. Meanwhile, we’re still waiting for the drivers who killed two cyclists at Hains Point and a pedestrian in Adam’s Morgan - to name but two - to face any measure of justice. So the facts demonstrably do not fit your ridiculous assertion.

The Hains Point victims were pedestrians who drove there and the accident was caused by a lot of things, including bicyclists biking in the road instead of the bike path.

They were indeed pedestrians and, after nearly two years, it seems that the driver who killed them was charged with negligent homicide (https://dcist.com/story/23/02/01/driver-charged-pedestrian-deaths-hains-point/). Even then you find a way to absolve the driver of responsibility and blame their deaths on phantom cyclists. What a sick soul you are.

Excuse me? Facts are facts. The bike path at Hains Point is washed out but rather than put some effort into getting that fixed bicyclists tried to ban pedestrians from Hains Point. Now that's something only a sick disgusting rotted husk of a narcissist would do.

Facts are something you apparently have no grasp of, ye who spouts ridiculous claims without a shred of evidence.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

What an absolutely ghoulish thing to write. Every road death represents a life tragically cut short. Those lives may not mean much to you, but they do to so many others. What is especially tragic is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if we had better infrastructure and more rigorous enforcement of road regulations, especially speeding.

Uh huh. While you hyperventilate about drivers, it’s worth noting that the number of cyclists killed in this city is minuscule. It’s amazing it’s not higher given all the stupid things cyclists do.

The number of children murdered in this city dwarfs the number of cyclists killed. But sure let’s all focus on that one white guy on a bike who got hit by a car three years ago

These are completely unrelated policy questions, though. We can be furious at children being murdered but also think the roads could be safer to bike on.

Except that’s not what happens *at all*. All the attention and a stunning amount of money goes to the white guy on a bike who is an adult who voluntarily chose to do something that everyone knows is dangerous. Every public dollar spent on one thing like subsidizing the hobbies of Bernie bros is a dollar that can’t be spent on another thing.

please stop. I doubt you care about black kids getting shot - you’re just trying to make a point. meanwhile, black kids actually DO disproportionately suffer from traffic accidents (and some die, including those on bikes). making streets safer for bikers and pedestrians would strongly benefit black kids.

Uh huh right. I think it’s disgusting how much of our public resources white guys are able to commandeer for their hobbies in a city with shocking poverty and crime rates. Our poverty rate is the same as West Virginia. We have as many murders as Baltimore. The children angle will upset anyone who has kids (you obviously do not).

Yes, there is a direct connection between bikelanes and child murder. Idiot.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

How cute. But no. The DC cyclist who ran a red light and knocked into a woman who later died was ticketed for disobeying a traffic signal and was subsequently sued into bankruptcy. The cyclist who got into a drunken altercation with a driver and ended up hitting him with his bike lock was convicted of a hate crime and sentenced to 5 years in prison. Meanwhile, we’re still waiting for the drivers who killed two cyclists at Hains Point and a pedestrian in Adam’s Morgan - to name but two - to face any measure of justice. So the facts demonstrably do not fit your ridiculous assertion.

The Hains Point victims were pedestrians who drove there and the accident was caused by a lot of things, including bicyclists biking in the road instead of the bike path.

They were indeed pedestrians and, after nearly two years, it seems that the driver who killed them was charged with negligent homicide (https://dcist.com/story/23/02/01/driver-charged-pedestrian-deaths-hains-point/). Even then you find a way to absolve the driver of responsibility and blame their deaths on phantom cyclists. What a sick soul you are.

Excuse me? Facts are facts. The bike path at Hains Point is washed out but rather than put some effort into getting that fixed bicyclists tried to ban pedestrians from Hains Point. Now that's something only a sick disgusting rotted husk of a narcissist would do.

ummm link please?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

What an absolutely ghoulish thing to write. Every road death represents a life tragically cut short. Those lives may not mean much to you, but they do to so many others. What is especially tragic is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if we had better infrastructure and more rigorous enforcement of road regulations, especially speeding.

Uh huh. While you hyperventilate about drivers, it’s worth noting that the number of cyclists killed in this city is minuscule. It’s amazing it’s not higher given all the stupid things cyclists do.

This has nothing to do with driver behavior or even cyclist behavior. This is about you. It’s honestly very sad that you see such little value in your own life that you chose to spend your time devaluing and libeling those who have passed and railing against infrastructure improvements that would prevent others from suffering the same fate. My heart goes out to you, sincerely.

[Anonymous]

There’s one thing I’ll say. The longer these threads go with the increasingly demented anti-bike posters, the more policymakers can be secure in the understanding that these are outliers with severe personality disorders who should be ignored. In public forums it’s easy to recognize who the nutjobs are, but the internet can make it a bit harder to idenity that it’s just a handful of disordered/ill folks.

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

What an absolutely ghoulish thing to write. Every road death represents a life tragically cut short. Those lives may not mean much to you, but they do to so many others. What is especially tragic is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if we had better infrastructure and more rigorous enforcement of road regulations, especially speeding.

Uh huh. While you hyperventilate about drivers, it’s worth noting that the number of cyclists killed in this city is minuscule. It’s amazing it’s not higher given all the stupid things cyclists do.

The number of children murdered in this city dwarfs the number of cyclists killed. But sure let’s all focus on that one white guy on a bike who got hit by a car three years ago

These are completely unrelated policy questions, though. We can be furious at children being murdered but also think the roads could be safer to bike on.

Except that’s not what happens *at all*. All the attention and a stunning amount of money goes to the white guy on a bike who is an adult who voluntarily chose to do something that everyone knows is dangerous. Every public dollar spent on one thing like subsidizing the hobbies of Bernie bros is a dollar that can’t be spent on another thing.

Sure, but every dollar spent on ANYTHING is a dollar that can't be spent on something else. The only thing the D.C. government is spending money on that you dislike is bike lanes? MPD's budget this year is over $400 million. Meanwhile, the city is spending like $6 million per year to add 10 miles of bike lanes annually and like $3 million per year to expand Capital BikeShare. Even if you took all that money and put it into policing, it'd be only a small increase. Is it really bike infrastructure that's causing crime to spike?

As for attention, I don't actually think the bike lanes would get much attention at all if people who don't like them didn't talk about them so much. I agree with you that victims of crime deserve more attention, but I don't see how it's the fault of people who ride bikes that they're not.

I'm ignoring your notion that there's no reason to make streets safer because the only people who use bike lanes are hobbyists who are basically just deliberately defying unreasonable risks, because it's not worth arguing with. It really should not be just accepted wisdom in a city that the streets are obviously too dangerous to be on except in a car.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

What an absolutely ghoulish thing to write. Every road death represents a life tragically cut short. Those lives may not mean much to you, but they do to so many others. What is especially tragic is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if we had better infrastructure and more rigorous enforcement of road regulations, especially speeding.

Uh huh. While you hyperventilate about drivers, it’s worth noting that the number of cyclists killed in this city is minuscule. It’s amazing it’s not higher given all the stupid things cyclists do.

This has nothing to do with driver behavior or even cyclist behavior. This is about you. It’s honestly very sad that you see such little value in your own life that you chose to spend your time devaluing and libeling those who have passed and railing against infrastructure improvements that would prevent others from suffering the same fate. My heart goes out to you, sincerely.

DP. You can’t libel the dead and once I saw that sentence I assumed everything else you wrote was wrong too.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

Uhm, it would also involve the cyclist flying the f*** off their bike and getting seriously injured. For the car driver they probably wouldn't even stop.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Really??? It's not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles? Are they just running a single mile? Because I do a whole lot of runs and most runners - in a freaking foot race - are placing in the 6:30-8:30/mi range.

No cyclist is riding on a sidewalk going 20 or 30 mph. Literally none. Not a single one. Riding on a side is #1 uncomfortable as a cyclist. #2 riding on a sidewalk at speed is terrifying for a cyclist. Unless you mean this guy. Maybe he is insane enough to ride at speed on a sidewalk.

You people in this thread are complete nutjobs. I am so, so, so glad that your opinion doesn't mean jack shit in real life for road design.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

Statistically insignificant from what? From 0? Did you run an actual t-test on that or are you just peppering in scientific language that you seem to not know anything about to give your garbage argument some semblance of validity?

[Anonymous]

Cyclists are narcissists

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and every time you say it, it makes you sound worse.

I think PP's point is the the number of cyclists killed is statistically insignificant, and they're not wrong. Every death is a tragedy but the story is in each narrative, not the overall numbers.

What an absolutely ghoulish thing to write. Every road death represents a life tragically cut short. Those lives may not mean much to you, but they do to so many others. What is especially tragic is that many of these deaths could have been prevented if we had better infrastructure and more rigorous enforcement of road regulations, especially speeding.

Uh huh. While you hyperventilate about drivers, it’s worth noting that the number of cyclists killed in this city is minuscule. It’s amazing it’s not higher given all the stupid things cyclists do.

The number of children murdered in this city dwarfs the number of cyclists killed. But sure let’s all focus on that one white guy on a bike who got hit by a car three years ago

These are completely unrelated policy questions, though. We can be furious at children being murdered but also think the roads could be safer to bike on.

Except that’s not what happens *at all*. All the attention and a stunning amount of money goes to the white guy on a bike who is an adult who voluntarily chose to do something that everyone knows is dangerous. Every public dollar spent on one thing like subsidizing the hobbies of Bernie bros is a dollar that can’t be spent on another thing.

please stop. I doubt you care about black kids getting shot - you’re just trying to make a point. meanwhile, black kids actually DO disproportionately suffer from traffic accidents (and some die, including those on bikes). making streets safer for bikers and pedestrians would strongly benefit black kids.

Uh huh right. I think it’s disgusting how much of our public resources white guys are able to commandeer for their hobbies in a city with shocking poverty and crime rates. Our poverty rate is the same as West Virginia. We have as many murders as Baltimore. The children angle will upset anyone who has kids (you obviously do not).

The city spent $4 million to build a place at union station for people to lock up their bikes. $4 million!

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Anonymous wrote:I really appreciated the guy going 20mph on his e-bike in the bike lanes ringing his bell as he ran the red light so the pedestrians had a chance to scatter before he went through the crosswalk. All the cars at the intersection were stopped, by the way.

Wow. I also saw many cars speeding and couple running red lights yesterday. Shall we all chip in with our observations of bad behavior by road users in Washington, DC. What great fun that would be.

How many of those cars honked their horns to make pedestrians scatter out of the crosswalk while they ran the red light? I’m not talking about technical violations that may have resulted from inattention, which, while extremely dangerous, is not the same as wanton and willful lawbreaking. The problem with too many cyclists is that they expect everyone to adjust to their presence regardless of what the law is. That tendency is worse when they’re in protected bike lanes because they don’t have to worry about cars.

If I’m walking in a crosswalk, having already established a lawful presence there, stop for me. It’s the law and it’s also common courtesy.

Yes, it is. It's the law. Which is routinely broken by drivers of cars, with or without bike lanes, and when drivers do it, they can seriously injure or kill you. But sure, let's focus on bike lanes.

The more people bike instead of drive, the safer you as a pedestrian will be.

You never acknowledge that you have any responsibility for the safety of others as a cyclist, so your argument that I'll be safer with more bike lanes falls flat. That's the problem. Too many cyclists fail to take responsibility for anyone else's safety, even that of other cyclists. I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least.

A regular bike at 20 mph on a bike lane in your mysterious unnamed intersection in DC? Where is that mysterious unnamed intersection, by the way?

It’s on a downhill. It’s an easy 20. You still keep deflecting instead of acknowledging how your own conduct can put other people at risk.

I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk

Faster than 25 mph, on a bike, on the sidewalk of a street in DC. You don't say.

People do some crazy shit

People also have no sense of speed. Unless you have Olympian-level strength, attaining - let alone maintaining - 25mph on level ground is very difficult and especially so on a confined space such as a sidewalk. 15mph is possible but that’s about it.

Nonetheless I’d be all for a law banning cycling on any and all sidewalks where there is an adjacent protected bike lane. That is entirely reasonable.

It’s not uncommon for runners to run five minute miles. That translates to 12 miles per hour. Someone on a bike could easily go twice that.

Why do you feel qualified to opine on that which you know very little. Here is a reference that may prove educative for you: https://www.bikelockwiki.com/average-cycling-speed/

20 mph (PP's estimate) is right in the middle of the average for an advanced cyclist and on a downhill they could easily get to 24 mph (the average top-end speed for an advanced cyclist). Thanks for the link.

It's good to hear that DC's sidewalks are in such an outstanding, smooth, unblocked, non-bumpy condition that athletes can reach Tour de France speeds on them.

PP wasn't talking about a sidewalk. PP was talking about a protected bike lane on a downhill stretch. Just keep deflecting.

Huh?

“I’ve seen cyclists go faster than that on sidewalks. I was driving down one of those streets named after a state, going maybe 25mph, and was passed by a bike on the sidewalk”

No cyclist are doing those speeds on a sidewalk. It’s patently absurd. To assert such only shows you no nothing about speed nor cycling.

The discussion about speed started with this: "I'm pretty sure getting hit by a cyclist on an e-bike or regular bike at 20 mph, which is faster than cars usually go at this intersection because of the congestion, would result in some broken ribs at the least." One of the bike trolls claimed no one rode 20 mph in a bike lane, which prompted the dubious claim of 25 mph on a sidewalk.

20 mph downhill on the road or a bike lane is certainly possible. But any cyclist who routinely runs red lights or stop signs at 20 mph is not someone who is going to be around long enough for you to worry much about.

Don’t you understand? Nothing is ever a cyclist’s fault. If a cyclist ran a stop sign at 30 mph and got hit by a car and died, it would be the driver’s fault regardless of the details of what actually happened.

This thread notwithstanding, the number of cyclists in DC who are killed by drivers is pretty close to the number of cyclists who are eaten by bears.

What we need are bike lanes protected from bear attacks. Every cyclist eaten by a bear is a tragedy.