Plane noise

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surprised nobody posted the DOT noise maps, see here:

https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/National-Transportation-Noise-Map/ri89-bhxh

Mass Ave seems to be the dividing line for noticing things.

That’s illuminating! Aligns with the no fly zone over VPs residence

There is a no fly zone over the WH I am sure, but yet planes fly over the National Mall. There must be a no-fly zone of the CIA, but loads of planes fly in lines over Mclean close to CIA. You are just lucky and they don't send planes your way, but who says this will never change? Clearly presence of high security objects isn't an obstacle for the flights to go nearby.

Here is the prohibited airpace map (for commercial flights): https://www.flyreagan.com/about-airport/aircraft-noise-information/dca-reagan-national-aircraft-procedures

Oh wow. We are in a purple blob of peace and quiet. Thank you!

[Anonymous]

With this map, it’s important to remember that MOST OF DC is nowhere near a flight path. So just avoid the flight path. It won’t change much.

http://our10yearplan.blogspot.com/2018/06/where-do-you-live-in-dc-13.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because it’s worsened significantly and the health studies came out; plus new generations are not as keen on things that could kill them

It worsened significantly in 2015 and prices kept going up. There was no meaningful change in noise since then except the first months of the pandemic when planes were just not flying.

What happened in 2015 and why? Why would they make it worse? Why not go back to previous flight patterns or try to improve the situation instead of worsening it?

Because nobody cares about noise in a handful of neighborhoods. They care about safety, short flight times, and fuel economy.

It's not a handful of neighborhoods and these aren't necessarily blighted industrial areas either with little residential housing, but nice residential affluent areas far removed from airports.

Okay. Clearly you don't have the political sway you'd like. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surprised nobody posted the DOT noise maps, see here:

https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/National-Transportation-Noise-Map/ri89-bhxh

Mass Ave seems to be the dividing line for noticing things.

That’s illuminating! Aligns with the no fly zone over VPs residence

There is a no fly zone over the WH I am sure, but yet planes fly over the National Mall. There must be a no-fly zone of the CIA, but loads of planes fly in lines over Mclean close to CIA. You are just lucky and they don't send planes your way, but who says this will never change? Clearly presence of high security objects isn't an obstacle for the flights to go nearby.

Here is the prohibited airpace map (for commercial flights): https://www.flyreagan.com/about-airport/aircraft-noise-information/dca-reagan-national-aircraft-procedures

Oh wow. We are in a purple blob of peace and quiet. Thank you!

And now you know where to buy and be future-proof

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What had always stopped me in my tracks is the number of residents who are fighting tooth and nail against the issue being addressed. That’s the case in the Palisades where they’d rather mock and discredit than invite an objective study and produce stats that could give them a fighting chance. In Brussels 400 households brought a civil suit over this. I bet you won’t find 20 in the Palisades.

Same for the Spring Valley. It was the neighbors affected by that horror that are the biggest obstacles to a solution and it being a well known issue. True story: we know someone who tested soil from a “clean” house there in 2 labs just to have peace of mind at closing. It turned up high arsenic and other things that gvt measured; but that wasn’t the worst. The worst were things they don’t measure but must know are there; heavy metals like Thalium, the most toxic heavy metal known to man and not in small concentrations. They close entire industrial sites over this but people happily carry on and gaslight in DC.

What is it? Why?

For a neighborhood with as may big law partners and lobbyists as the palisades/kent/etc, it actually is insane that they cant get a single serious legal challenge or environmental study going. Hell, even the McMillian idiots got some traction. And those people were actually idiots, but they still delayed stuff for a decade plus. Nobody actually cares if you think about revealed preferences. (I.e. putting money where your mouth is). Everyone knew this was a problem when the moved in, but some people just like to complain. We all know people like that.

Incredible and perhaps the crux of the issue

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ultrafine particles are less than 100 nanometers in diameter — one one-thousandth the width of a human hair — and their impact on health is only beginning to be studied. Ultrafines aren’t specifically regulated by any state or federal air quality standards.

A higher proportion of the ultrafine particles (UFPs) in jet emissions are so small they can penetrate the central nervous system when inhaled, the report said.

Communities under flight paths, like SeaTac, Des Moines, Highline, Angle Lake, Beacon Hill and Rainier Valley, are exposed to those “ultra-ultrafines” when planes take off and land, researchers found.

The UW study adds to a growing international body of research on the particles, including some preliminary reports showing correlations between exposure to ultrafines and higher incidences of some kinds of cancer, as well as lung diseases that cause trouble breathing and deep, throaty coughs.

“Strong and consistent evidence from animal studies indicates that long-term exposure to UFPs is related to negative effects on the brain, nervous and respiratory system,” the state Department of Health concluded in a separate review of research on ultrafine particles released this month, funded by the Port of Seattle.

Generally, Austin said, ultrafine particles tend to agglomerate as they travel through the air — they stick together and become larger particles, which aren’t able to pass from the airways into the bloodstream. That’s typically what happens near busy roads.

But the super-small particles emitted by airplanes are forced directly downward by air currents and wing vortexes so rapidly that they haven’t agglomerated by the time they reach the ground, her team found.

Worth noting that the UW study (a) looked primarily at communities directly under the Sea Tac flight path, (b) focused primarily on locations where airplanes were at 750m (~2,500 feet) or lower altitude, and (c) involved a far busier airport than DCA.

Palisades is not directly under the DCA flight path, as the path follows the river. There is of course variance -- some flights go directly over Palisades, some go over McLean, some go straight over the river. The Sea Tac flight path has less variance as the flights are generally on a straight path to/from the runway (unlike the weaving path along the Potomac on the river approach/departure from DCA). If you've ever lived in Seattle, this is easy to observe.

Flights taking off from DCA are typically at a higher elevation when they pass Palisades. From Flightradar24, the typical elevation seems to be 3,000-3,500 feet. The extra altitude presumably makes a difference.

Sea Tac has ~50% more flights per day than DCA (and with bigger aircraft, which presumably pollute more).

Be careful in extrapolating.

Thanking you for looking up this info. I was pretty certain this was the case, and I was trying to decide if I cared enough to go find it.

And for the “jet vortices pushing particulates into your organs” poster — I’ve decided I’m going to try to be less snarky here, so I’ll just say: No. That’s not happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The costs are high: https://academic.oup.com/restud/article/83/2/768/2461206

We link daily air pollution exposure to measures of contemporaneous health for communities surrounding the twelve largest airports in California. These airports are some of the largest sources of air pollution in the US, and they experience large changes in daily air pollution emissions depending on the amount of time planes spend idling on the tarmac. Excess airplane idling, measured as residual daily taxi time, is due to network delays originating in the Eastern US. This idiosyncratic variation in daily airplane taxi time significantly impacts the health of local residents, largely driven by increased levels of carbon monoxide (CO) exposure. We use this variation in daily airport congestion to estimate the population dose-response of health outcomes to daily CO exposure, examining hospitalization rates for asthma, respiratory, and heart-related emergency room admissions. A one standard deviation increase in daily pollution levels leads to an additional $540 thousand in hospitalization costs for respiratory and heart-related admissions for the 6 million individuals living within 10 km (6.2 miles) of the airports in California. These health effects occur at levels of CO exposure far below existing Environmental Protection Agency mandates, and our results suggest there may be sizable morbidity benefits from lowering the existing CO standard.

The article is behind a paywall, but those costs are not actual observed effects. They estimated (not measured) CO exposure and then estimated health care costs based on some model that we can’t see. I would take this with a hefty dose of salt, especially since even their summary admits that they’re extrapolating costs from exposures below the EPA standard. They have an agenda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bloody hell, I bet lack of any understanding of environmental health is why dementia and cancer wards are full and we are hurtling towards a bleak future.

Dementia and cancer wards are full because people are living longer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ultrafine particles are less than 100 nanometers in diameter — one one-thousandth the width of a human hair — and their impact on health is only beginning to be studied. Ultrafines aren’t specifically regulated by any state or federal air quality standards.

A higher proportion of the ultrafine particles (UFPs) in jet emissions are so small they can penetrate the central nervous system when inhaled, the report said.

Communities under flight paths, like SeaTac, Des Moines, Highline, Angle Lake, Beacon Hill and Rainier Valley, are exposed to those “ultra-ultrafines” when planes take off and land, researchers found.

The UW study adds to a growing international body of research on the particles, including some preliminary reports showing correlations between exposure to ultrafines and higher incidences of some kinds of cancer, as well as lung diseases that cause trouble breathing and deep, throaty coughs.

“Strong and consistent evidence from animal studies indicates that long-term exposure to UFPs is related to negative effects on the brain, nervous and respiratory system,” the state Department of Health concluded in a separate review of research on ultrafine particles released this month, funded by the Port of Seattle.

Generally, Austin said, ultrafine particles tend to agglomerate as they travel through the air — they stick together and become larger particles, which aren’t able to pass from the airways into the bloodstream. That’s typically what happens near busy roads.

But the super-small particles emitted by airplanes are forced directly downward by air currents and wing vortexes so rapidly that they haven’t agglomerated by the time they reach the ground, her team found.

Worth noting that the UW study (a) looked primarily at communities directly under the Sea Tac flight path, (b) focused primarily on locations where airplanes were at 750m (~2,500 feet) or lower altitude, and (c) involved a far busier airport than DCA.

Palisades is not directly under the DCA flight path, as the path follows the river. There is of course variance -- some flights go directly over Palisades, some go over McLean, some go straight over the river. The Sea Tac flight path has less variance as the flights are generally on a straight path to/from the runway (unlike the weaving path along the Potomac on the river approach/departure from DCA). If you've ever lived in Seattle, this is easy to observe.

Flights taking off from DCA are typically at a higher elevation when they pass Palisades. From Flightradar24, the typical elevation seems to be 3,000-3,500 feet. The extra altitude presumably makes a difference.

Sea Tac has ~50% more flights per day than DCA (and with bigger aircraft, which presumably pollute more).

Be careful in extrapolating.

Thanking you for looking up this info. I was pretty certain this was the case, and I was trying to decide if I cared enough to go find it.

And for the “jet vortices pushing particulates into your organs” poster — I’ve decided I’m going to try to be less snarky here, so I’ll just say: No. That’s not happening.

Of course it’s happening

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bloody hell, I bet lack of any understanding of environmental health is why dementia and cancer wards are full and we are hurtling towards a bleak future.

Dementia and cancer wards are full because people are living longer.

Ok, sure. Whatever

[Anonymous]

How is this even a question? Excessive noise and air pollution?!!
No thank
You!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Surprised nobody posted the DOT noise maps, see here:

https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/National-Transportation-Noise-Map/ri89-bhxh

Mass Ave seems to be the dividing line for noticing things.

That’s illuminating! Aligns with the no fly zone over VPs residence

There is a no fly zone over the WH I am sure, but yet planes fly over the National Mall. There must be a no-fly zone of the CIA, but loads of planes fly in lines over Mclean close to CIA. You are just lucky and they don't send planes your way, but who says this will never change? Clearly presence of high security objects isn't an obstacle for the flights to go nearby.

Here is the prohibited airpace map (for commercial flights): https://www.flyreagan.com/about-airport/aircraft-noise-information/dca-reagan-national-aircraft-procedures

Oh wow. We are in a purple blob of peace and quiet. Thank you!

For now..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What had always stopped me in my tracks is the number of residents who are fighting tooth and nail against the issue being addressed. That’s the case in the Palisades where they’d rather mock and discredit than invite an objective study and produce stats that could give them a fighting chance. In Brussels 400 households brought a civil suit over this. I bet you won’t find 20 in the Palisades.

Same for the Spring Valley. It was the neighbors affected by that horror that are the biggest obstacles to a solution and it being a well known issue. True story: we know someone who tested soil from a “clean” house there in 2 labs just to have peace of mind at closing. It turned up high arsenic and other things that gvt measured; but that wasn’t the worst. The worst were things they don’t measure but must know are there; heavy metals like Thalium, the most toxic heavy metal known to man and not in small concentrations. They close entire industrial sites over this but people happily carry on and gaslight in DC.

What is it? Why?

For a neighborhood with as may big law partners and lobbyists as the palisades/kent/etc, it actually is insane that they cant get a single serious legal challenge or environmental study going. Hell, even the McMillian idiots got some traction. And those people were actually idiots, but they still delayed stuff for a decade plus. Nobody actually cares if you think about revealed preferences. (I.e. putting money where your mouth is). Everyone knew this was a problem when the moved in, but some people just like to complain. We all know people like that.

Incredible and perhaps the crux of the issue

Or maybe it's not an issue if people moved in and knew about it. It would explain why there isn't legal outrage. Areas that didn't used to be in flight paths and got there recently might have more outrage, so we still may see some action and some changes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With this map, it’s important to remember that MOST OF DC is nowhere near a flight path. So just avoid the flight path. It won’t change much.

http://our10yearplan.blogspot.com/2018/06/where-do-you-live-in-dc-13.html

According to this map our area is also not in a flight path, but there are few scarce flight paths nearby, near enough to obviously hear the noise. Such is true for DC, you just have to be near at least one line. The bloggers are close to the no-fly zone, but also relatively close to the many paths by the river. People don't notice if there are a few planes flying distance away in audible range, but infrequently. They do notice when there is a plane flying in audible range every minute or less for hours on end. This means that they are either near lots of paths or directly under in the midst of them, or it means that the line closest to them (if they aren't in the flight paths) is very heavily used. This map doesn't tell you which paths are heavily used, it just shows how many possible paths each areas has, doesn't it? Also if you look at the map it's clear that that restrictive zones isn't what makes areas quiet, it's the way flight paths converge on certain areas. National mall is still very very close to many paths, so you hear a lot of noise, but it's restricted airspace, so you won't have plane over your head a lot, but still near. See what I mean? It's not about restricted areas that protects the residents in some neighborhoods from noise.. it's just about how these flight paths were designed, it's unfair to some areas that get tons of paths near them while traffic can be dispersed in more directions and still spare protected space. You are just lucky for now, but this may change and protected space won't protect you (one little blob of National Observatory) when this family isn't protected from the noise being close to a bigger protected area. You are just lucky that planes aren't diverted to fly your way, they may one day and observatory blob will still be spared, but you aren't.

[Anonymous]

Not sure if the Palisades people prefer takeoffs (higher decibels) or landings (lower altitude, more visually distracting). A pilot at Reagan remarked to me that the river approach from the NW has an absurdly-last-minute low-altitude right turn that violates all kinds of safety norms, making it ironic that the FAA is allowing that in their back yard. So perhaps Reagan is biased toward using the upstream Potomac River flightpath when winds don’t strongly dictate the opposite, since it’s safer to take an early turn on a takeoff than a late turn on a landing. Also, the upstream departure path allows for straighter routes to more destinations. It seems to me that the bulk of my Reagan arrivals come in from the south.

Somebody have the ratio handy of upstream/downstream?