Insider Perspectives from a Highly Selective Admissions Office

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, thank you for taking the time to post this Q&A, it has been extremely informative. I'm wondering what advice would you give to the parents of a kid who has extremely strong academic credentials, but does not show a demonstrated passion? My daughter is in 7th grade, and from how she is doing so far, I would expect she would be near valedictorian and have very high SAT scores. However, she is interested in everything. She is equally strong in STEM as she is in humanities/social sciences. When asked what she wants to do as a career, she'll say she doesn't know, so many things are interesting to her. Her activities are all over the place - soccer, theater, art, computers. I can easily see where she will be the dreaded "well-rounded" applicant who doesn't stand out to admission offers. And we can't be comforted by the notion that she will be accepted to a strong school somewhere as long as she casts her net wide enough. Our budget only allows for instate colleges. So basically if she doesn't get into the two top schools, she will have to settle for a school that is academically far beneath what she theoretically "should" be able to attend. From a purely strategic perspective, should we try to encourage her to "specialize" in a certain area, so she will stand a greater chance of standing out to the admission officers?

My honest advice for you is to to close the college and university forum and not open it again until your DD is midway through freshman year. Bye.

Says the person whose budget probably doesn't limit them to only in state publics.

Or says the person who knows many graduates of VA universities other than UVA and W&M who are thriving. The Harvard PhD economist in the office next to mine got his undergrad degree at JMU. My neighbor's kid who just graduated from UVA law got her undergrad degree from Mary Washington. Our successful business owner friend went to GMU. I don't think all will be lost if PP's DD doesn't get in to UVA and had to "squander" her talents at a lesser state school.

DP. And yet, here you are, ticking off people's second tier undergrad schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, thank you for taking the time to post this Q&A, it has been extremely informative. I'm wondering what advice would you give to the parents of a kid who has extremely strong academic credentials, but does not show a demonstrated passion? My daughter is in 7th grade, and from how she is doing so far, I would expect she would be near valedictorian and have very high SAT scores. However, she is interested in everything. She is equally strong in STEM as she is in humanities/social sciences. When asked what she wants to do as a career, she'll say she doesn't know, so many things are interesting to her. Her activities are all over the place - soccer, theater, art, computers. I can easily see where she will be the dreaded "well-rounded" applicant who doesn't stand out to admission offers. And we can't be comforted by the notion that she will be accepted to a strong school somewhere as long as she casts her net wide enough. Our budget only allows for instate colleges. So basically if she doesn't get into the two top schools, she will have to settle for a school that is academically far beneath what she theoretically "should" be able to attend. From a purely strategic perspective, should we try to encourage her to "specialize" in a certain area, so she will stand a greater chance of standing out to the admission officers?

My honest advice for you is to to close the college and university forum and not open it again until your DD is midway through freshman year. Bye.

Says the person whose budget probably doesn't limit them to only in state publics.

Or says the person who knows many graduates of VA universities other than UVA and W&M who are thriving. The Harvard PhD economist in the office next to mine got his undergrad degree at JMU. My neighbor's kid who just graduated from UVA law got her undergrad degree from Mary Washington. Our successful business owner friend went to GMU. I don't think all will be lost if PP's DD doesn't get in to UVA and had to "squander" her talents at a lesser state school.

DP. And yet, here you are, ticking off people's second tier undergrad schools.

Yes. In two of the three examples, "all was not lost" because person eventually got into a top college for graduate school. Isn't this basically supporting the notion that the value of attending a top college is great enough that it justifies the concern/focus that kids and families have towards college admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, thank you for taking the time to post this Q&A, it has been extremely informative. I'm wondering what advice would you give to the parents of a kid who has extremely strong academic credentials, but does not show a demonstrated passion? My daughter is in 7th grade, and from how she is doing so far, I would expect she would be near valedictorian and have very high SAT scores. However, she is interested in everything. She is equally strong in STEM as she is in humanities/social sciences. When asked what she wants to do as a career, she'll say she doesn't know, so many things are interesting to her. Her activities are all over the place - soccer, theater, art, computers. I can easily see where she will be the dreaded "well-rounded" applicant who doesn't stand out to admission offers. And we can't be comforted by the notion that she will be accepted to a strong school somewhere as long as she casts her net wide enough. Our budget only allows for instate colleges. So basically if she doesn't get into the two top schools, she will have to settle for a school that is academically far beneath what she theoretically "should" be able to attend. From a purely strategic perspective, should we try to encourage her to "specialize" in a certain area, so she will stand a greater chance of standing out to the admission officers?

My honest advice for you is to to close the college and university forum and not open it again until your DD is midway through freshman year. Bye.

Says the person whose budget probably doesn't limit them to only in state publics.

Or says the person who knows many graduates of VA universities other than UVA and W&M who are thriving. The Harvard PhD economist in the office next to mine got his undergrad degree at JMU. My neighbor's kid who just graduated from UVA law got her undergrad degree from Mary Washington. Our successful business owner friend went to GMU. I don't think all will be lost if PP's DD doesn't get in to UVA and had to "squander" her talents at a lesser state school.

DP. And yet, here you are, ticking off people's second tier undergrad schools.

You appear to have entirely missed the point. Where did you go to undergrad?

The point, since you need it spelled out in more detail, is that this from PP above:

So basically if she doesn't get into the two top schools, she will have to settle for a school that is academically far beneath what she theoretically "should" be able to attend

Is a silly thing to worry about. Going to a VA school that is not one of the top two is not a death sentence--or even a meaningful disadvantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LOR = Letters of recommendation, URM=under-represented minorities, UMC=upper middle class.

What about HYPMS?

HYP is Harvard Yale Princeton. I assume S is Stanford, but your guess is as good as mine about the M.

[Anonymous]

The rude poster/troll will get a wakeup call when her future 12th grader with perfect stats is crushed when she doesn't make the cut at UVA or W&M after doing everything right, those perfect stats aren't enough get significant merit at private colleges, and FAFSA believes you can afford $70K a year in tuition on a below-DCUM-average HHI.

We in VA are SO lucky to have so many great in-state options. I know kids who have happily chosen CNU over UVA, UMW over W&M, and JMU over VT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, thank you for taking the time to post this Q&A, it has been extremely informative. I'm wondering what advice would you give to the parents of a kid who has extremely strong academic credentials, but does not show a demonstrated passion? My daughter is in 7th grade, and from how she is doing so far, I would expect she would be near valedictorian and have very high SAT scores. However, she is interested in everything. She is equally strong in STEM as she is in humanities/social sciences. When asked what she wants to do as a career, she'll say she doesn't know, so many things are interesting to her. Her activities are all over the place - soccer, theater, art, computers. I can easily see where she will be the dreaded "well-rounded" applicant who doesn't stand out to admission offers. And we can't be comforted by the notion that she will be accepted to a strong school somewhere as long as she casts her net wide enough. Our budget only allows for instate colleges. So basically if she doesn't get into the two top schools, she will have to settle for a school that is academically far beneath what she theoretically "should" be able to attend. From a purely strategic perspective, should we try to encourage her to "specialize" in a certain area, so she will stand a greater chance of standing out to the admission officers?

My honest advice for you is to to close the college and university forum and not open it again until your DD is midway through freshman year. Bye.

Says the person whose budget probably doesn't limit them to only in state publics.

Or says the person who knows many graduates of VA universities other than UVA and W&M who are thriving. The Harvard PhD economist in the office next to mine got his undergrad degree at JMU. My neighbor's kid who just graduated from UVA law got her undergrad degree from Mary Washington. Our successful business owner friend went to GMU. I don't think all will be lost if PP's DD doesn't get in to UVA and had to "squander" her talents at a lesser state school.

DP. And yet, here you are, ticking off people's second tier undergrad schools.

Yes. In two of the three examples, "all was not lost" because person eventually got into a top college for graduate school. Isn't this basically supporting the notion that the value of attending a top college is great enough that it justifies the concern/focus that kids and families have towards college admissions?

I used those three examples because I believed they would demonstrate that some outside, admired organization clearly approved of the undergraduate educations received by two students attending VA schools that are not in the top 2. I also know plenty of other people who graduated from JMU, GMU, VT, VCU, UMW who are gainfully employed and living comfortable, happy lives. But that doesn't tell you much--maybe my definition of gainful employment and comfort is Starbucks and mom's couch. I used those two examples because they provided a useful metric.

BTW, I also know several people who went to W&M or UVA who went on to not-so-impressive graduate programs. I'm one of them. And I know plenty of people who went to UVA or W&M and went on to not particularly impressive or lucrative jobs--teachers, journalists, civil servants (not even SES level!), librarians, accountants, SAHPs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The rude poster/troll will get a wakeup call when her future 12th grader with perfect stats is crushed when she doesn't make the cut at UVA or W&M after doing everything right, those perfect stats aren't enough get significant merit at private colleges, and FAFSA believes you can afford $70K a year in tuition on a below-DCUM-average HHI.

We in VA are SO lucky to have so many great in-state options. I know kids who have happily chosen CNU over UVA, UMW over W&M, and JMU over VT.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The rude poster/troll will get a wakeup call when her future 12th grader with perfect stats is crushed when she doesn't make the cut at UVA or W&M after doing everything right, those perfect stats aren't enough get significant merit at private colleges, and FAFSA believes you can afford $70K a year in tuition on a below-DCUM-average HHI.

We in VA are SO lucky to have so many great in-state options. I know kids who have happily chosen CNU over UVA, UMW over W&M, and JMU over VT.

While I agree with your last paragraph, your first is not my family's experience at all. Sure, it seems like a crap shoot getting into UVA or W&M from NOVA when your kid has excelled in HS, taken a gazillion AP classes, excellent test scores & extracurriculars but there is significant merit aid at excellent colleges for students with that background - you just have to apply to private colleges strategically and to those that actually offer it. My three DCs fit in that category and we've paid the equivalent of in state tuition for all of them at their private colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The rude poster/troll will get a wakeup call when her future 12th grader with perfect stats is crushed when she doesn't make the cut at UVA or W&M after doing everything right, those perfect stats aren't enough get significant merit at private colleges, and FAFSA believes you can afford $70K a year in tuition on a below-DCUM-average HHI.

We in VA are SO lucky to have so many great in-state options. I know kids who have happily chosen CNU over UVA, UMW over W&M, and JMU over VT.

Sorry but I find this VERY hard to believe. (Do you mean kids accepted to both but chose CNU? - No way.)

[Anonymous]

Of course it's possible to thrive if one does not attend a top college. But seriously, if college status didn't matter at all, why would anyone even care? Why do so many families strain their budgets to pay for elite colleges instead of choosing from the plethora of schools that are more affordable? Obviously, all else being equal most kids would prefer to attend the highest ranking school they are capable of getting in to. Is it really so unreasonable that the parents of a high achieving kid, are dismayed to know that there is a very good chance that their child might attend Average State U, because of finances that extremely limit their options?

"all else being equal, everyone wants to go to the highest ranked school they are capable of getting into". NO, you can't assume that this is true for everyone everywhere. What a ridiculous assumption. Ranking is actually the last thing my kids cared about. They were impressed by things like famous alumni, architecture, famous professors -- and being stupid high school students, they also cared a lot about dumb things like whether or not there was an ice cream maker in the cafeteria. If you think that kids are rational actors when it comes to making educational choices, I'd like to direct you to a thread of College Confidential called something like "stupidest reasons my child wouldn't consider a school." There, you will find that people's children have rejected fine educational options, often after the family paid a lot of money to travel to those institutions to look, because: I don't look good in the school colors; the dorms "smelled funny"; the girl giving the college tour was a dork; the dorm rooms were too small; there aren't any cute boys here (my daughter's main criticism of W and M), etc. .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The rude poster/troll will get a wakeup call when her future 12th grader with perfect stats is crushed when she doesn't make the cut at UVA or W&M after doing everything right, those perfect stats aren't enough get significant merit at private colleges, and FAFSA believes you can afford $70K a year in tuition on a below-DCUM-average HHI.

We in VA are SO lucky to have so many great in-state options. I know kids who have happily chosen CNU over UVA, UMW over W&M, and JMU over VT.

I'm not sure which "rude poster/troll" you are referring to, but I am the poster of the 7th grader who I am presuming will have perfect (academic) stats in 12th grade. I will not be "crushed" in the sense of being "shocked" if she doesn't make the cut at W&M/UVA, because I'm largely expecting it, because she is too "well-rounded" in her extracurricular activities, which you hear over and over top colleges don't want. I have stated very clearly that I'm not expecting to get any aid at all from private colleges, because I know many families at my income level who have not received any. That's my issue. The only two schools we can afford that are of the academic caliber that one would expect a kid like her to attend are W&M and UVA. Yet, there is still a very good chance she won't get in because of this stupid expectation colleges have that a child should demonstrate a passion. Yes, I will be "crushed" at the thought of my child having no other choice but to attend a school much lower ranked than one she has the academic chops to attend. Yes, I know she will probably still do well in life regardless, but yes, I want my high achieving child to be able to attend a high caliber college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The rude poster/troll will get a wakeup call when her future 12th grader with perfect stats is crushed when she doesn't make the cut at UVA or W&M after doing everything right, those perfect stats aren't enough get significant merit at private colleges, and FAFSA believes you can afford $70K a year in tuition on a below-DCUM-average HHI.

We in VA are SO lucky to have so many great in-state options. I know kids who have happily chosen CNU over UVA, UMW over W&M, and JMU over VT.

I'm not sure which "rude poster/troll" you are referring to, but I am the poster of the 7th grader who I am presuming will have perfect (academic) stats in 12th grade. I will not be "crushed" in the sense of being "shocked" if she doesn't make the cut at W&M/UVA, because I'm largely expecting it, because she is too "well-rounded" in her extracurricular activities, which you hear over and over top colleges don't want. I have stated very clearly that I'm not expecting to get any aid at all from private colleges, because I know many families at my income level who have not received any. That's my issue. The only two schools we can afford that are of the academic caliber that one would expect a kid like her to attend are W&M and UVA. Yet, there is still a very good chance she won't get in because of this stupid expectation colleges have that a child should demonstrate a passion. Yes, I will be "crushed" at the thought of my child having no other choice but to attend a school much lower ranked than one she has the academic chops to attend. Yes, I know she will probably still do well in life regardless, but yes, I want my high achieving child to be able to attend a high caliber college.

^ pretty sure you can transfer to Uva though after a year at one of the other state schools iwith an acceptable GPA) if you're interested in doing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LOR = Letters of recommendation, URM=under-represented minorities, UMC=upper middle class.

What about HYPMS?

HYP is Harvard Yale Princeton. I assume S is Stanford, but your guess is as good as mine about the M.

My guess is the M is supposed to be MIT

[Anonymous]

Wow, 16 pages on this? Can't read through all of it but the whole college admissions game, and it is a game reminds me of what someone told me the first day of business school:. "the easiest way to make money is through people's insecurities, vanity, or laziness.

Think of the money all these ratings, tutors, and coaches make and HYP is still a lottery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, 16 pages on this? Can't read through all of it but the whole college admissions game, and it is a game reminds me of what someone told me the first day of business school:. "the easiest way to make money is through people's insecurities, vanity, or laziness.

Think of the money all these ratings, tutors, and coaches make and HYP is still a lottery.

Yup.