IB Program- What is it? IB or AP?

[Anonymous]

pp edit:

Time to eliminate it--or limit it to one or two schools. That way those who really are committed could PP for it.

[Anonymous]

Remember: getting an IB diploma is not the equivalent of taking some AP classes-- it's the equivalent of being a higher level AP scholar (e.g., AP scholar with distinction or national AP scholar) How many kids at the lower performing schools get these distinctions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

@76% success rate, that's not a bad idea. It will certainly lower the cost/student rate.

And, please, what would be the success rate then? 65%? 55? 45?

The advantage of AP is that it doesn't cost overall anymore if more kids take the tests--just the costs of the exams. With IB, There are so many additional costs. After all these years, it is clear that the people have spoken. The program has limited attraction in our schools. Time to eliminate it--or limit it to those who really are committed.

Re diploma rate - who knows, maybe it will go down, up, or not change at all. No one really knows until you try. I don't buy AP won't have additional cost... Nothing in life is free. You can't possibly believe you will get something out of nothing. It doesn't work that way. "People have spoken"?? Are you referring to this/other DCUM threads? Or something different?

[Anonymous]

Re diploma rate - who knows, maybe it will go down, up, or not change at all. No one really knows until you try. I don't buy AP won't have additional cost... Nothing in life is free. You can't possibly believe you will get something out of nothing. It doesn't work that way. "People have spoken"?? Are you referring to this/other DCUM threads? Or something different?

IB has been in FCPS for quite some time. Participation is poor. That is what I meant by the "people have spoken". The people who have chosen not to participate or place elsewhere for AP. Yes, I know some PP for IB--limit IB to one or two schools. They can still PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On AAP threads in DCUM there are plenty of parents who come on to complain how AAP should be "open to every child" and hate that it's selective. Everyone should have the chance to be academically challenged, is the theme. Fair enough.

Yet IB is actually open to every student, and still parents complain, this time because not enough students (in their estimation) do it because it's hard.

Ugh. The IB parents are a prime example of a special-interest niche group within FCPS. For the most part, their argument boils down to "you owe us: we are willing to send our kids to lower-SES schools, so we deserve an expensive program for our snowflakes, regardless of how much it costs or how few students benefit."

The argument fails because the focus needs to be on the students that FCPS actually has, not the students FCPS wishes it had. If IB were going to draw people to schools, surely we would have seen this happen by now. But it hasn't, and most of the students who attend the schools with IB programs clearly would be better served by AP. They aren't going to head off to university in England and have meetings every week to discuss their IB-honed essays with their dons; instead, when they go to college, they are looking to save costs and get credits as efficiently as possible. So we end up with a program where only 10% or so of the students at IB schools get IB diplomas, and the other 90% are stuck with a curriculum that is less flexible and more cumbersome. Meanwhile, everyone has to pay for the costs of IB, and the fact that FCPS won't eliminate or at least cut back on IB sends a strong message that FCPS is incapable of spending its resources wisely.

We do not need PYP or MYP, and the IB diploma program should be limited to no more than 2-3 schools.

[Anonymous]

Ugh. The IB parents are a prime example of a special-interest niche group within FCPS. For the most part, their argument boils down to "you owe us: we are willing to send our kids to lower-SES schools, so we deserve an expensive program for our snowflakes, regardless of how much it costs or how few students benefit."

Wow... Tell us how you really feel about these parents. Don't parents have right to demand what's best for their kids? Who gave you the right to decide what's best for them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The argument fails because the focus needs to be on the students that FCPS actually has, not the students FCPS wishes it had. If IB were going to draw people to schools, surely we would have seen this happen by now. But it hasn't, and most of the students who attend the schools with IB programs clearly would be better served by AP.

Huh? How do you know this?

IB courses can be taken WITHOUT committing to the entirety of the diploma. There is also an IB Career-related Certificate (IBCC) Program:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/ibdiploma.shtml

So the costs of the IB coordinator are not solely for the students in the IB Diploma program but also for the students in IBCC as well as for students taking individual IB courses (much like students do, a la carte, for AP).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Ugh. The IB parents are a prime example of a special-interest niche group within FCPS. For the most part, their argument boils down to "you owe us: we are willing to send our kids to lower-SES schools, so we deserve an expensive program for our snowflakes, regardless of how much it costs or how few students benefit."

Wow... Tell us how you really feel about these parents. Don't parents have right to demand what's best for their kids? Who gave you the right to decide what's best for them?

"Right to demand" is an odd phrase, isn't it? It combines notions of both liberty and entitlement.

Many people are now calling upon FCPS to halt the expansion of IB, and cut back significantly on a program that benefits relatively few students and does not serve the interests of most students at IB schools well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ugh. The IB parents are a prime example of a special-interest niche group within FCPS. For the most part, their argument boils down to "you owe us: we are willing to send our kids to lower-SES schools, so we deserve an expensive program for our snowflakes, regardless of how much it costs or how few students benefit."

Wow... Tell us how you really feel about these parents. Don't parents have right to demand what's best for their kids? Who gave you the right to decide what's best for them?

"Right to demand" is an odd phrase, isn't it? It combines notions of both liberty and entitlement.

Many people are now calling upon FCPS to halt the expansion of IB, and cut back significantly on a program that benefits relatively few students and does not serve the interests of most students at IB schools well.

You keep referring to "many people" "people have spoken"...etc. who the heck are these people? Where are they? I don't see anyone else other than a couple of talking heads on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On AAP threads in DCUM there are plenty of parents who come on to complain how AAP should be "open to every child" and hate that it's selective. Everyone should have the chance to be academically challenged, is the theme. Fair enough.

Yet IB is actually open to every student, and still parents complain, this time because not enough students (in their estimation) do it because it's hard.

Ugh. The IB parents are a prime example of a special-interest niche group within FCPS. For the most part, their argument boils down to "you owe us: we are willing to send our kids to lower-SES schools, so we deserve an expensive program for our snowflakes, regardless of how much it costs or how few students benefit."

The argument fails because the focus needs to be on the students that FCPS actually has, not the students FCPS wishes it had. If IB were going to draw people to schools, surely we would have seen this happen by now. But it hasn't, and most of the students who attend the schools with IB programs clearly would be better served by AP. They aren't going to head off to university in England and have meetings every week to discuss their IB-honed essays with their dons; instead, when they go to college, they are looking to save costs and get credits as efficiently as possible. So we end up with a program where only 10% or so of the students at IB schools get IB diplomas, and the other 90% are stuck with a curriculum that is less flexible and more cumbersome. Meanwhile, everyone has to pay for the costs of IB, and the fact that FCPS won't eliminate or at least cut back on IB sends a strong message that FCPS is incapable of spending its resources wisely.

We do not need PYP or MYP, and the IB diploma program should be limited to no more than 2-3 schools.

You f'king ahole. So, lower SES parents can't ask for what's best for their kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument fails because the focus needs to be on the students that FCPS actually has, not the students FCPS wishes it had. If IB were going to draw people to schools, surely we would have seen this happen by now. But it hasn't, and most of the students who attend the schools with IB programs clearly would be better served by AP.

Huh? How do you know this?

IB courses can be taken WITHOUT committing to the entirety of the diploma. There is also an IB Career-related Certificate (IBCC) Program:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/ibdiploma.shtml

So the costs of the IB coordinator are not solely for the students in the IB Diploma program but also for the students in IBCC as well as for students taking individual IB courses (much like students do, a la carte, for AP).

The whole point of IB at the high school level is the IB diploma and everything at an IB high school has to be organized around enabling students to pursue a diploma and making sure that, among other things, the IB school "develops and promotes international-mindedness and all attributes of the IB learner profile across the school community," and "provides for the full Diploma Programme and requires some of its student body to attempt the full diploma," etc. The IBCC is an after-the-fact add-on to keep IB schools that have abysmally low rates of diploma candidates forking over the annual fees and other money to the IBO.

The AP "a-la-carte" analogy fails because IB courses are more cumbersome (often two-sequences as opposed to one-year AP courses); moreover, even if they were no different than AP courses, it would still beg the question as to why we should pay more money for IB coordinators, training, annual school fees, and tests when AP costs less.

IB has been such a waste of time and money in FCPS. It strains credulity that FCPS won't listen to parents and kill it, even when people have repeatedly expressed their anger over getting redistricted to IB schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On AAP threads in DCUM there are plenty of parents who come on to complain how AAP should be "open to every child" and hate that it's selective. Everyone should have the chance to be academically challenged, is the theme. Fair enough.

Yet IB is actually open to every student, and still parents complain, this time because not enough students (in their estimation) do it because it's hard.

Ugh. The IB parents are a prime example of a special-interest niche group within FCPS. For the most part, their argument boils down to "you owe us: we are willing to send our kids to lower-SES schools, so we deserve an expensive program for our snowflakes, regardless of how much it costs or how few students benefit."

The argument fails because the focus needs to be on the students that FCPS actually has, not the students FCPS wishes it had. If IB were going to draw people to schools, surely we would have seen this happen by now. But it hasn't, and most of the students who attend the schools with IB programs clearly would be better served by AP. They aren't going to head off to university in England and have meetings every week to discuss their IB-honed essays with their dons; instead, when they go to college, they are looking to save costs and get credits as efficiently as possible. So we end up with a program where only 10% or so of the students at IB schools get IB diplomas, and the other 90% are stuck with a curriculum that is less flexible and more cumbersome. Meanwhile, everyone has to pay for the costs of IB, and the fact that FCPS won't eliminate or at least cut back on IB sends a strong message that FCPS is incapable of spending its resources wisely.

We do not need PYP or MYP, and the IB diploma program should be limited to no more than 2-3 schools.

You f'king ahole. So, lower SES parents can't ask for what's best for their kids?

You are kind of a dimwit. It's not the lower SES parents who jump up and down over IB and call it a "school within a school."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument fails because the focus needs to be on the students that FCPS actually has, not the students FCPS wishes it had. If IB were going to draw people to schools, surely we would have seen this happen by now. But it hasn't, and most of the students who attend the schools with IB programs clearly would be better served by AP.

Huh? How do you know this?

IB courses can be taken WITHOUT committing to the entirety of the diploma. There is also an IB Career-related Certificate (IBCC) Program:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/ibdiploma.shtml

So the costs of the IB coordinator are not solely for the students in the IB Diploma program but also for the students in IBCC as well as for students taking individual IB courses (much like students do, a la carte, for AP).

The whole point of IB at the high school level is the IB diploma and everything at an IB high school has to be organized around enabling students to pursue a diploma and making sure that, among other things, the IB school "develops and promotes international-mindedness and all attributes of the IB learner profile across the school community," and "provides for the full Diploma Programme and requires some of its student body to attempt the full diploma," etc. The IBCC is an after-the-fact add-on to keep IB schools that have abysmally low rates of diploma candidates forking over the annual fees and other money to the IBO.

The AP "a-la-carte" analogy fails because IB courses are more cumbersome (often two-sequences as opposed to one-year AP courses); moreover, even if they were no different than AP courses, it would still beg the question as to why we should pay more money for IB coordinators, training, annual school fees, and tests when AP costs less.

IB has been such a waste of time and money in FCPS. It strains credulity that FCPS won't listen to parents and kill it, even when people have repeatedly expressed their anger over getting redistricted to IB schools.

Where are the two-sequences courses in IBCC? I don't see this requirement listed.

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/ibcc.shtml

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument fails because the focus needs to be on the students that FCPS actually has, not the students FCPS wishes it had. If IB were going to draw people to schools, surely we would have seen this happen by now. But it hasn't, and most of the students who attend the schools with IB programs clearly would be better served by AP.

Huh? How do you know this?

IB courses can be taken WITHOUT committing to the entirety of the diploma. There is also an IB Career-related Certificate (IBCC) Program:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/ibdiploma.shtml

So the costs of the IB coordinator are not solely for the students in the IB Diploma program but also for the students in IBCC as well as for students taking individual IB courses (much like students do, a la carte, for AP).

The whole point of IB at the high school level is the IB diploma and everything at an IB high school has to be organized around enabling students to pursue a diploma and making sure that, among other things, the IB school "develops and promotes international-mindedness and all attributes of the IB learner profile across the school community," and "provides for the full Diploma Programme and requires some of its student body to attempt the full diploma," etc. The IBCC is an after-the-fact add-on to keep IB schools that have abysmally low rates of diploma candidates forking over the annual fees and other money to the IBO.

The AP "a-la-carte" analogy fails because IB courses are more cumbersome (often two-sequences as opposed to one-year AP courses); moreover, even if they were no different than AP courses, it would still beg the question as to why we should pay more money for IB coordinators, training, annual school fees, and tests when AP costs less.

IB has been such a waste of time and money in FCPS. It strains credulity that FCPS won't listen to parents and kill it, even when people have repeatedly expressed their anger over getting redistricted to IB schools.

Where are the two-sequences courses in IBCC? I don't see this requirement listed.

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/ibcc.shtml

You have to take two IB diploma courses and many of them have a two-year sequence.

IBCC has limited flexibility compared to AP/Academy offerings at other schools, and most of the schools that offer this have few IB diploma candidates. It doesn't seem worth the candle when you could take the same money spent on IB fees, coordinators, etc. and just provide the students with access to non-IB courses that deliver similar services at lower cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB has been such a waste of time and money in FCPS. It strains credulity that FCPS won't listen to parents and kill it, even when people have repeatedly expressed their anger over getting redistricted to IB schools.

I feel like I am missing something. Honest question, no snark - if it is as much a slam dunk as you claim, why, with all of the budget problems FCPS has faced, hasn't IB been reduced to 1 or 2 schools? As you've presented above, it's a pretty straightforward argument - high costs, low participation rates (meaning negligible parental/staff resistance) , AP is probably better known and more popular...

If this is such obvious low-hanging fruit that is win-win for all involved, why hasn't it happened? What do Board members say? What's the inside scoop? There must be something, right?