How things change in a decade!

[Anonymous]

You mean comprehensive HS. Not possible for a comprehensive HS to do better than the application schools that by design select their incoming classes from those who got a 3.9+ the three years before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As true as that is, in a triage situation, really any situation with scarce resources, it's hard to see how we don't prioritize the high schoolers who could become carjackers and then the kindergarteners who are on their way to becoming the next generation of carjackers.

Knowing that most of the top-grade students that we've got in DC could just go to private schools or move just tells us that DC's not going to and shouldn't focus on our kids. It's gonna focus on the children of the poor.

The problem is that educators don't know how to turn the children of the poor into high performers. Even medium performers. At least for anything beyond adopting the kids away from their actual parents. Which causes its own harm.

The only way to help those kids is make their moms older when they have the kids, or not have the kids at all. That’s so far from what schools should be doing- even if yes public health authorities should be providing birth controls for free in schools. Spending more on those kids is just throwing good money after bad, except for the few who can make it out- who in turn are ill served by not being separated from the rest in gifted and talented programs they test into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My prediction: The list of the best schools in the city, at every level, will be increasingly dominated by charters.

Only for middle school.

DCPS is by far the leader for elementary. High School is split.

No for elementary EOTP. It’s the immersion charters. Families that don’t get in then settle for DCPS.

Nope. Definitely not true on Capitol Hill.

OK, CH may be the exception but it is a very, very small part of EOTP.

Some CH families do choose immersion over DCPS but not majority.

No, it's actually you who are focusing on one specific slice of EOTP. Other parts -- CH included -- have different stories, but few of them are immersion charter-focused. Shepherd, Ross, Reed, Bancroft, Maury, Brent, Ludlow-Taylor, Chisholm, Payne, Watkins and Van Ness are all schools where DCPSes are the preferred destinations (either the IB itself or a nearby one). EOTR few kids are in immersion and the ones that are are mostly in/hoping for Chisholm.

Folks in Brookland, Eckington, Brentwood, Edgewood are heading to immersion (and other, e.g., Lee) charters because they're the closest good options. The charters that folks EOTR attend are not immersion, but they choose them for the same reason. For anyone close enough to Capitol Hill or WOTP, those DCPSes are typically the closest good options and so the first choice. As CH has gentrified, there are now many more CH ESes on the list and so more good spots for OOBers; same thing with the DCPS ESes along the North Cap corridor.

As a general matter, I think most people think -- and the test scores certainly bear out -- that DPCSes are the best-performing ESes.

Yeah agree. I know US News is somehow debatable, but all 10 of the top elementary schools are DCPS, with 6 WOTP and 4 EOTP (Ross, Shepherd, Maury, Brent).

And if anyone looked at that "who is beating 3rd grade expectations" chart, charter schools like Yu Ying and LAMB that have very low poverty rates have startling low 3rd grade reading scores -- they are underperforming relative to demographics.


Middle school is a different story, because DCPS really doesn't seem to have that figured out, curricularly.

But they come back in high school, with many DCPS schools offering sufficient challenge (Walls, Banneker, JR, MacArthur and McKinley Tech)

Ok, well kids at those immersion schools are learning everything via a second language. When the teacher is teaching them about ecosystems or conjunctions or Native American history or whatever, the teacher is not doing it in English.

Former LAMB employee. The kids don't speak Spanish. Almost none of them. Teachers may speak in Spanish but everyone responds in English. Try talking to one of these students in Spanish for longer than 2 seconds and they'll look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears.

Pro-tip: If you're going to lie about a school, it should at least be a little bit believable. This is like claiming kids at BASIS don't know how to add or subtract.

I actually don’t think this is made up. My neighbors go there and they are in upper grades and barely speak Spanish and their friends don’t either. I’m a native speaker. My kids go to another bilingual chapter and it’s the same. There are so many kids in 5th grade who barely speak Spanish.

You are a native Spanish speaker and a former teacher at a bilingual school and your kids barely speak Spanish?

DP. My wife’s a heritage speaker and I’m a natural language learner. We spoke only Spanish with our kids for like ten years. Dual language DCPS. For our older one, the kid is a confident Spanish speaker at all times. A native speaker like mom, just not using it every day now in HS. The second kid is a nervous/perfectionist person and while the kid understands everything, doesn’t want to make any mistakes ever. So rarely jumps in in Spanish or sometimes uses English in Spanish conversations.

So even among people who have good education and support there’s variation in how much they’ll use their Spanish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

The “miracle” is that they somehow stopped social promotion and holding kids back benefitted them academically.

Maybe we should try it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

The “miracle” is that they somehow stopped social promotion and holding kids back benefitted them academically.

Maybe we should try it.

What we're doing now in DC clearly isn't working, and hasn't been working for a very long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

The “miracle” is that they somehow stopped social promotion and holding kids back benefitted them academically.

Maybe we should try it.

What we're doing now in DC clearly isn't working, and hasn't been working for a very long time.

Gelman uses the past tense when he refers to DC graduating kids who never should have graduated, and judging by the numbers, that is inappropriate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My prediction: The list of the best schools in the city, at every level, will be increasingly dominated by charters.

Only for middle school.

DCPS is by far the leader for elementary. High School is split.

No for elementary EOTP. It’s the immersion charters. Families that don’t get in then settle for DCPS.

Nope. Definitely not true on Capitol Hill.

OK, CH may be the exception but it is a very, very small part of EOTP.

Some CH families do choose immersion over DCPS but not majority.

No, it's actually you who are focusing on one specific slice of EOTP. Other parts -- CH included -- have different stories, but few of them are immersion charter-focused. Shepherd, Ross, Reed, Bancroft, Maury, Brent, Ludlow-Taylor, Chisholm, Payne, Watkins and Van Ness are all schools where DCPSes are the preferred destinations (either the IB itself or a nearby one). EOTR few kids are in immersion and the ones that are are mostly in/hoping for Chisholm.

Folks in Brookland, Eckington, Brentwood, Edgewood are heading to immersion (and other, e.g., Lee) charters because they're the closest good options. The charters that folks EOTR attend are not immersion, but they choose them for the same reason. For anyone close enough to Capitol Hill or WOTP, those DCPSes are typically the closest good options and so the first choice. As CH has gentrified, there are now many more CH ESes on the list and so more good spots for OOBers; same thing with the DCPS ESes along the North Cap corridor.

As a general matter, I think most people think -- and the test scores certainly bear out -- that DPCSes are the best-performing ESes.

Yeah agree. I know US News is somehow debatable, but all 10 of the top elementary schools are DCPS, with 6 WOTP and 4 EOTP (Ross, Shepherd, Maury, Brent).

And if anyone looked at that "who is beating 3rd grade expectations" chart, charter schools like Yu Ying and LAMB that have very low poverty rates have startling low 3rd grade reading scores -- they are underperforming relative to demographics.


Middle school is a different story, because DCPS really doesn't seem to have that figured out, curricularly.

But they come back in high school, with many DCPS schools offering sufficient challenge (Walls, Banneker, JR, MacArthur and McKinley Tech)

Ok, well kids at those immersion schools are learning everything via a second language. When the teacher is teaching them about ecosystems or conjunctions or Native American history or whatever, the teacher is not doing it in English.

Former LAMB employee. The kids don't speak Spanish. Almost none of them. Teachers may speak in Spanish but everyone responds in English. Try talking to one of these students in Spanish for longer than 2 seconds and they'll look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears.

Pro-tip: If you're going to lie about a school, it should at least be a little bit believable. This is like claiming kids at BASIS don't know how to add or subtract.

I actually don’t think this is made up. My neighbors go there and they are in upper grades and barely speak Spanish and their friends don’t either. I’m a native speaker. My kids go to another bilingual chapter and it’s the same. There are so many kids in 5th grade who barely speak Spanish.

You are a native Spanish speaker and a former teacher at a bilingual school and your kids barely speak Spanish?

I’m PP. I’m not a teacher. There is a different PP that worked at LAMB. My kids speak Spanish fluently but a lot of their friends do not even though they have been in a bilingual school since PreK. We work hard on bilingualism at home. There is a lot of English at their school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

The “miracle” is that they somehow stopped social promotion and holding kids back benefitted them academically.

Maybe we should try it.

Maybe promoting innumeracy among adults is not the cure to illiteracy among children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

The “miracle” is that they somehow stopped social promotion and holding kids back benefitted them academically.

Maybe we should try it.

Maybe promoting innumeracy among adults is not the cure to illiteracy among children.

Mississippi's results aren't exaggerated. That's just a dumb lie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

The “miracle” is that they somehow stopped social promotion and holding kids back benefitted them academically.

Maybe we should try it.

What we're doing now in DC clearly isn't working, and hasn't been working for a very long time.

It's not just Mississippi. Kids across the Deep South, including Alabama, are outscoring DC kids. It's embarrassing.

[Anonymous]

DP. It’s not a dumb lie, the Mississippi results are bogus. What changed is, they started failing, third graders, who weren’t literate then the next year they tested the fourth graders for literacy and surprise, of them were literate. Because the failing cohort was no longer in that grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d also point out (something everyone hates) that for some reason independent of class, Black students do much worse on testing. The demographics of SWW vs BBHS: 23% black vs 69% an actual multiple of 3.

So view school outcomes with that lens as well.

------------------------
What is this supposed to mean? Spell it out clearly because this is gross.

I think this thread has gone way off track. Why dont we start measuring the heads of students too, I mean since were headed down that path.

The point is that if you compare schools without taking into consideration the differences in SAT test scores among students by racial background (whites score lower than Asians, so it's not like white students are the top of the heap) then you're not doing a rigorous comparison.

I get that you think it's racist to say that, but it's just reality that you should take into account if you're comparing SAT scores. Are students performing at their statistically expected level or out-performing it? That's called comparing schools with statistical rigor as opposed to just cherry picking numbers out of context.

You should read about schools in Mississippi.

Maybe it's your expectations that are fkced.

The Mississippi results are exaggerated.

The “miracle” is that they somehow stopped social promotion and holding kids back benefitted them academically.

Maybe we should try it.

Maybe promoting innumeracy among adults is not the cure to illiteracy among children.

That’s the selecting on the dependent variable Gelman is talking about. The “effect” happens not because of a change in treatment method but some kids are exposed to the treatment twice because they were held back.

[Anonymous]

And also yes, they kicked a bunch of illiterates down a grade. Bravo to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My prediction: The list of the best schools in the city, at every level, will be increasingly dominated by charters.

Only for middle school.

DCPS is by far the leader for elementary. High School is split.

High school WAS split. But now they won’t even be teaching kids to read full books in middle school. That should ruin high schools just the same.