FCPS potential changes to AAP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’d really like to know which schools have 75% of an AAP classroom with the low CogAt/ NNAT scores. I’m skeptical of that claim, if for no other reason than my own kid didn’t get in with much higher scores and excellent grades (but, did get in on appeal w a strong WISC). I don’t buy it that 15+ kids in a single AAP classroom scored in the average range for FCPS.

It’s fake obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP with example from last year (4th grade) I've shared in the past. We are in western FCPS. I had a parent teacher conference with my gen ed kid's teacher in late, late January. Teacher admitted to me what my kid had told me: she had not met with his reading group since December. She had them working independently because it takes so much time to get the other groups back on track especially after breaks and snow days. She is a good, seasoned teacher stretched too thin. Part of the issue is that Teachers are pulled into so many dang meetings (for IEPs, work sessions, etc.) that suck time away during the school day. The issue isn't always bad teachers. It is the system.

DP from Western Fairfax: We had a similar experience where I asked my child if the teacher was meeting with him or in a group for LA and the answer was no. I noticed the same writing mistakes in his stories. He said the teacher was busy working with the other kids. I went in to volunteer to find many children who were just beginning to read and write. (This was 2nd grade.) We ended up referring and my child got in. Much better experience in AAP. Surrounded by kids who read similar books, etc., involved parents. Also, the kids would be encouraged take an assignment to the next level.

Another Western Fairfax parent here with the exact same experience. The AART is great, but she's part time and was obviously stretched thin. Between snow days and meetings, Level III pullouts were not once a week, as they were supposed to be. There were more than a few kids who were not at all prepared for the looming SOLs and the teacher spent a ton of time trying to get them to the bare minimum level. Some of the kids who got SpEd services had serious behavior issues and the IA who was supposed to work with them kept getting pulled to cover for local screening and to cover when other teachers were out and there were no available substitutes. I'm somewhat surprised that to my knowledge 1. No parents have raised hell about their kids not getting the Level III services they're supposed to get and 2. No parents of kids who are required by law to get a certain # of SpEd hours have raised hell about the IA getting pulled. With the former group, a lot probably just end up going to the center (we did). I'm not too sure about the latter group.

The parents of kids with ieps aren’t told when their kid doesn’t get the required services. That’s why.

PP here. I don’t know...there were some upset parents at my kids’ school last year who raised a stink about this after their kids told them they hadn’t been getting pull-out SpEd services for a couple weeks. By third or fourth grade, kids are old enough to notice when the schedule is different or their usual teacher or para isn’t there.

My daughter receives SPED services. She doesn't necessarily know how many hours or the exact type of support she receives. We ask questions like, "did [blank] meet with you today?" Some parents assume everything is fine if the kid is happy and grades are OK. Separate from AAP pull-outs, SPED hourly support is sometimes tied to the month - not week - making it more difficult to track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many kiddos in Level IV who are not placed appropriately - they are struggling with the advanced material. If we’re going to add more kids to Level IV, then we need to create a Level V to meet the needs of the kids who truly are advanced.

- AAP Teacher

^^ Thank you! My class is filled with kids (about 75% percent) with NNAT and CogAt scores between 95 and 110.

I'm one of the more vocal critics of the watering down of AAP over the last 20 years, and even I'll call bullshit on this one. I'm pretty convinced that AAP has many more kids in the 115-125 range than people on this forum would imagine, but kids between 95 and 110 would have to be an anomaly in AAP. Across the county, about half of the kids in AAP were in-pool on at least one test. I would imagine that the bulk of the admitted parent referrals at least had either the CogAT or NNAT in the 120s.

[Anonymous]

I think parents won't know unless they ask. My child was receiving pullouts for enrichment but that only lasted two months. The teacher was needed for SOL help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many kiddos in Level IV who are not placed appropriately - they are struggling with the advanced material. If we’re going to add more kids to Level IV, then we need to create a Level V to meet the needs of the kids who truly are advanced.

- AAP Teacher

^^ Thank you! My class is filled with kids (about 75% percent) with NNAT and CogAt scores between 95 and 110.

I'm one of the more vocal critics of the watering down of AAP over the last 20 years, and even I'll call bullshit on this one. I'm pretty convinced that AAP has many more kids in the 115-125 range than people on this forum would imagine, but kids between 95 and 110 would have to be an anomaly in AAP. Across the county, about half of the kids in AAP were in-pool on at least one test. I would imagine that the bulk of the admitted parent referrals at least had either the CogAT or NNAT in the 120s.

This is frustrating since my oldest was denied AAP last year with such scores and denied on appeal with a 130 WISC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

its still the teachers fault. When the teacher is pulled away they often know in advance and have a sub who they can give instructions. And if that isn’t enough they should be able to ask the administration for help instead of just neglecting the educational experience of the students because they are overwhelmed for what ever reason

Are you familiar with the current educational system? Many subs can barely teach, and they don't have access to laptops to project notes, videos, etc. A sub can't execute semi-complex lessons or science labs. Good subs get picked up for long-term jobs, not the meeting fill-ins. And how is Admin supposed to change that? They can't screen substitutes, and there is not enough money to pay for qualified subs. This has been the case for years. whats wrong with having a teacher who floats around that can do these things mentioned. The county has resources and money to provide what is necessary

If I had to guess, it's because teachers are paid based on their years of experience (or years at FCPS). If they pay a teacher to float around only "working" a couple hours a day, they would have to receive the same pay as a teacher that works 8 hours a day, plans, grades, etc. I'm not sure the county can justify that and it could lead to resentment among teachers. I'm no expert - just a guess. fcps has plenty of money. Far more than schools in most districts to work with. If you are a teacher, have some backbone and complain about how the budget is managed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

its still the teachers fault. When the teacher is pulled away they often know in advance and have a sub who they can give instructions. And if that isn’t enough they should be able to ask the administration for help instead of just neglecting the educational experience of the students because they are overwhelmed for what ever reason

Are you familiar with the current educational system? Many subs can barely teach, and they don't have access to laptops to project notes, videos, etc. A sub can't execute semi-complex lessons or science labs. Good subs get picked up for long-term jobs, not the meeting fill-ins. And how is Admin supposed to change that? They can't screen substitutes, and there is not enough money to pay for qualified subs. This has been the case for years.

whats wrong with having a teacher who floats around that can do these things mentioned. The county has resources and money to provide what is necessary

If I had to guess, it's because teachers are paid based on their years of experience (or years at FCPS). If they pay a teacher to float around only "working" a couple hours a day, they would have to receive the same pay as a teacher that works 8 hours a day, plans, grades, etc. I'm not sure the county can justify that and it could lead to resentment among teachers. I'm no expert - just a guess. fcps has plenty of money. Far more than schools in most districts to work with. If you are a teacher, have some backbone and complain about how the budget is managed
Fcps has plenty of money. Far more than schools in most districts to work with. If you are a teacher, have some backbone and complain about how the budget is managed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many kiddos in Level IV who are not placed appropriately - they are struggling with the advanced material. If we’re going to add more kids to Level IV, then we need to create a Level V to meet the needs of the kids who truly are advanced.

- AAP Teacher

^^ Thank you! My class is filled with kids (about 75% percent) with NNAT and CogAt scores between 95 and 110.

I find it hard to believe this is the makeup of a level 4 class room

In the AAP class I teach, 115 or thereabouts seems to be a pretty common score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many kiddos in Level IV who are not placed appropriately - they are struggling with the advanced material. If we’re going to add more kids to Level IV, then we need to create a Level V to meet the needs of the kids who truly are advanced.

- AAP Teacher

^^ Thank you! My class is filled with kids (about 75% percent) with NNAT and CogAt scores between 95 and 110.

I find it hard to believe this is the makeup of a level 4 class room

In the AAP class I teach, 115 or thereabouts seems to be a pretty common score.

On what? The nnat? One Cogat subsection?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm one of the more vocal critics of the watering down of AAP over the last 20 years, and even I'll call bullshit on this one. I'm pretty convinced that AAP has many more kids in the 115-125 range than people on this forum would imagine, but kids between 95 and 110 would have to be an anomaly in AAP. Across the county, about half of the kids in AAP were in-pool on at least one test. I would imagine that the bulk of the admitted parent referrals at least had either the CogAT or NNAT in the 120s.

This is frustrating since my oldest was denied AAP last year with such scores and denied on appeal with a 130 WISC.

But what was the GBRS? I know several kids who got in with scores in the low 120s, but they were all good students and presumably got a high GBRS.

[Anonymous]

Is it possible that the scores are different for different pyramids?

In the pyramids with fewer FARMs kids, there ends up being a higher bar to be accepted into AAP because it is more likely that kids have parents at home reading to them, buying educational games, potentially paying for tutoring and the like so the kids tend to score higher on the tests. But the Centers only have room for a certain number of kids, and so you need to have higher scores in order to be invited into the program. In pyramids were there are more FARMs kids, the number of kids who score higher on the tests is lower, but the number of seats available at the centers is the same so the bar is lower?

I get that there is suppose to be room for anyone who meets the standard but that does not seem to be the case. My kid is not at this stage yet but it sounds like, from the descriptions here, that the centers have a certain number of AAP classes, with a certain number of seats. It does not sound like there is a way to expand the number of classes if there are more kids who meet the requirements. The Centers also have General Education classes and are going to be limited by the number of classrooms and teachers at the school. It also does not sound like there is an option to send kids to different center schools that might have seats.

An example. There are 90 kids who could be eligible, based on test scores, but only 60 seats so 30 kids are not accepted based on work samples or GBRS. But at a different center, there are 60 seats and only 40 kids meet the test score requirements (132 on NNAt and/or CogAT). All of those kid are accepted but there are 20 open seats. Kids with lower tests scores or high GBRSs are accepted intot he program, lowering the test scores in the AAP class.

Does this sound right? So there are pyramids were the AAP bar is lower and you end up with kids with scores of 115 in AAP while there are other schools where a kid with a 130 was not accepted.

[Anonymous]

Maybe those are the same pyramids where people are desperate to get their kids out of gen ed. If there were lots of bright kids staying at our base school for 3rd grade and up, more people would want to stay.

[Anonymous]

I think you are more likely to end up with lower-scoring kids in AAP in zones where parents are the pushy-est... and that is usually NOT the lower end pyramids. Having lived in a zone where people don't really even know about AAP (or just tangentially have heard about it), I know that some areas simply don't care about it. It's not that the AAP Center is bad -- in fact, it's excellent. But it's out of sight and out of mind... and people generally like the atmosphere at the base school.

Contrast that with the central and western parts (where I am now) and it is AAP/IAAT/TJ crazy. Just a vastly different attitude. FWIW, the first school wasn't a high farms school.

So, some of it may be the parents' intensity level and some of it is just the awareness (or lack of AAP awareness) in some parts of the county vs. others.

Those who are around people talking about AAP and who have a center close by (or even in that school) are more likely to want to push into it. Those who aren't around competitive parents or who don't have a center nearby don't really think about AAP much at all (if ever). I know that last part is hard to believe on this board!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it possible that the scores are different for different pyramids?

In the pyramids with fewer FARMs kids, there ends up being a higher bar to be accepted into AAP because it is more likely that kids have parents at home reading to them, buying educational games, potentially paying for tutoring and the like so the kids tend to score higher on the tests. But the Centers only have room for a certain number of kids, and so you need to have higher scores in order to be invited into the program. In pyramids were there are more FARMs kids, the number of kids who score higher on the tests is lower, but the number of seats available at the centers is the same so the bar is lower?

I get that there is suppose to be room for anyone who meets the standard but that does not seem to be the case. My kid is not at this stage yet but it sounds like, from the descriptions here, that the centers have a certain number of AAP classes, with a certain number of seats. It does not sound like there is a way to expand the number of classes if there are more kids who meet the requirements. The Centers also have General Education classes and are going to be limited by the number of classrooms and teachers at the school. It also does not sound like there is an option to send kids to different center schools that might have seats.

An example. There are 90 kids who could be eligible, based on test scores, but only 60 seats so 30 kids are not accepted based on work samples or GBRS. But at a different center, there are 60 seats and only 40 kids meet the test score requirements (132 on NNAt and/or CogAT). All of those kid are accepted but there are 20 open seats. Kids with lower tests scores or high GBRSs are accepted intot he program, lowering the test scores in the AAP class.

Does this sound right? So there are pyramids were the AAP bar is lower and you end up with kids with scores of 115 in AAP while there are other schools where a kid with a 130 was not accepted.

The problem with AAP is their are multiple opportunities to self select and appeal

It's not that hard the only criteria should be

Student is in the second grade screening pool. The second grade screening pool is created based on scores from FCPS-administered ability tests given to students in Grades 1 and 2. Pool students are not guaranteed eligibility, but they are automatically referred for screening.

Then say the top 300 or so student scores county wide should be selected for AAP IV. That's it cut and dry no appeals

[Anonymous]

^ FCPS would deny this, but I agree. I think each center has some sort of target range for the number of AAP kids, and I would not at all be surprised if that influences admission decisions. If a center ends up with too few kids, they won't have the critical mass that they need. If they have too many, there will be logistical problems with finding space, hiring extra teachers, etc.