Yu Ying - Do/Can Non-Native Kids Actually SPEAK Chinese?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one actually compares Sela with the DCI feeders. And last I heard, they arent doing full immersion anymore.

All of the other feeders do it.

Either someone thinks they're doing bilingual English/Hebrew meetings at a DCI feeder, or the person I replied to was actually comparing Sela and Yu Ying.

Sela is separate from the DCI feeders.

Among the DCI feeders, only YY does not routinely communicate with its extended school community in two languages.

DCI communicates with its parents and prospective parents in English. DCI is also very clear that DCI is not an immersion school, so perhaps they think that makes it ok.

Wait. DCI isn't a language immersion school? Then what is it, and what's the point?

It is a IB school with advanced language studies (or beginner language, if you are entering new at 6th or 9th).

Students take a minimum of 2 classes in their target language in middle school (social studies + their language) and sometimes an elective will be in their language if the teacher is fluent in their target language -- for the other students that elective will be in English.

It's not like the feeders which teach everything in the target language, depending on the day or the week. But that immersion approach ends for all the students after 5th grade.

This shouldn't come as a surprise -- read their charter application and their website.

Sounds great but "advanced language studies" doesn't do it for me when I speak in good Mandarin to neighborhood DCI 8th graders. They've been studying Chinese via 50% immersion since age 5 or 6 yet can't speak or understand nearly as well as my own 5 year old. To my ear, the ""advanced" kids sound like beginners. YY parents like to say, oh the fluency issues will get sorted out once the kids who started in full immersion PreS3 make it to DCI, or once the kids grow up and go live in China. Right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one actually compares Sela with the DCI feeders. And last I heard, they arent doing full immersion anymore.

All of the other feeders do it.

Either someone thinks they're doing bilingual English/Hebrew meetings at a DCI feeder, or the person I replied to was actually comparing Sela and Yu Ying.

Sela is separate from the DCI feeders.

Among the DCI feeders, only YY does not routinely communicate with its extended school community in two languages.

DCI communicates with its parents and prospective parents in English. DCI is also very clear that DCI is not an immersion school, so perhaps they think that makes it ok.

Wait. DCI isn't a language immersion school? Then what is it, and what's the point?

It is a IB school with advanced language studies (or beginner language, if you are entering new at 6th or 9th).

Students take a minimum of 2 classes in their target language in middle school (social studies + their language) and sometimes an elective will be in their language if the teacher is fluent in their target language -- for the other students that elective will be in English.

It's not like the feeders which teach everything in the target language, depending on the day or the week. But that immersion approach ends for all the students after 5th grade.

This shouldn't come as a surprise -- read their charter application and their website.

Sounds great but "advanced language studies" doesn't do it for me when I speak in good Mandarin to neighborhood DCI 8th graders. They've been studying Chinese via 50% immersion since age 5 or 6 yet can't speak or understand nearly as well as my own 5 year old. To my ear, the ""advanced" kids sound like beginners. YY parents like to say, oh the fluency issues will get sorted out once the kids who started in full immersion PreS3 make it to DCI, or once the kids grow up and go live in China. Right.

First of all, are you comparing the ability of YY students who have at least one native-speaking parent to your child's ability? Or are you comparing the ability of YY students who have only English-speaking parents at home to your child's ability, who apparently has at least one Mandarin-speaking parent? If you are going to compare, then at least be fair about it. I don't know that there is any basis to expect immersion students who come from monolingual families to be as fluent as their peers who have at least one parent who speaks the target language. It's just not going to happen, whether its Mandarin, Spanish, French or any other language.

[Anonymous]

This is old territory on DCUM. I can certainly see a kid from a monolingual home who's has been in 50% Chinese immersion for 7-10 years not speaking nearly as well as a kid who speaks Chinese at home. Just the same, when you talk to the current DCI "advanced track" Chinese students, as a native speaker, you can hardly help shaking your head. The DCI 11-14 year olds speak like toddlers to my ear, 2 year olds for the stragglers, 4 year olds for the high fliers. I would never say it to the families, but results for speaking are god awful. I speak Spanish OK and hear much better Spanish from DCI students whose families don't speak Spanish at home.

I have suggestion for those who come on YY threads. Pack it in until there's a new HOS. Who knows when, 2 years, 5 years. She won't stay forever and nothing much will change until she does. Outreach won't be done to native speakers to drum up interest in the school. Relationships won't be forged with organizations serving native speaking kids. Hardly any native speakers will enter the YY lottery. After-care won't be immersion. School newsletters won't come home in Chinese and English etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is old territory on DCUM. I can certainly see a kid from a monolingual home who's has been in 50% Chinese immersion for 7-10 years not speaking nearly as well as a kid who speaks Chinese at home. Just the same, when you talk to the current DCI "advanced track" Chinese students, as a native speaker, you can hardly help shaking your head. The DCI 11-14 year olds speak like toddlers to my ear, 2 year olds for the stragglers, 4 year olds for the high fliers. I would never say it to the families, but results for speaking are god awful. I speak Spanish OK and hear much better Spanish from DCI students whose families don't speak Spanish at home.

I have suggestion for those who come on YY threads. Pack it in until there's a new HOS. Who knows when, 2 years, 5 years. She won't stay forever and nothing much will change until she does. Outreach won't be done to native speakers to drum up interest in the school. Relationships won't be forged with organizations serving native speaking kids. Hardly any native speakers will enter the YY lottery. After-care won't be immersion. School newsletters won't come home in Chinese and English etc.

Does the topic of conversation matter at all?

The non-native, monolingual children are learning school Chinese -- math, science, history, etc. They probably don't know how to talk about sports, movies or what they did over the weekend. If they can't discuss their academic work in Chinese with some level of fluency, I agree there's an issue.

[Anonymous]

Immersion aftercare is very expensive - this is why non-Spanish immersion programs cannot offer it everyday. There are not enough Chinese, French, Hebrew speakers in DC, and the teachers can't work overtime. There are unlikely to be enough native speakers in DC in the years regardless of who the ED is - as multiple native speakers have stated - they are unlikely to send their kids to an African American majority school in DC in any case, hence the long-standing Asian flight to MoCo - before, during, and after YY.

[Anonymous]

I know many people are saying expressive language skills of YY kidsa are weak. What about their receptive language skills?

Thanks,

curious current YY parent who doesn't speak any chinese

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is old territory on DCUM. I can certainly see a kid from a monolingual home who's has been in 50% Chinese immersion for 7-10 years not speaking nearly as well as a kid who speaks Chinese at home. Just the same, when you talk to the current DCI "advanced track" Chinese students, as a native speaker, you can hardly help shaking your head. The DCI 11-14 year olds speak like toddlers to my ear, 2 year olds for the stragglers, 4 year olds for the high fliers. I would never say it to the families, but results for speaking are god awful. I speak Spanish OK and hear much better Spanish from DCI students whose families don't speak Spanish at home.

I have suggestion for those who come on YY threads. Pack it in until there's a new HOS. Who knows when, 2 years, 5 years. She won't stay forever and nothing much will change until she does. Outreach won't be done to native speakers to drum up interest in the school. Relationships won't be forged with organizations serving native speaking kids. Hardly any native speakers will enter the YY lottery. After-care won't be immersion. School newsletters won't come home in Chinese and English etc.

Does the topic of conversation matter at all?

The non-native, monolingual children are learning school Chinese -- math, science, history, etc. They probably don't know how to talk about sports, movies or what they did over the weekend. If they can't discuss their academic work in Chinese with some level of fluency, I agree there's an issue.

Believe what you want but most of the DCI "advanced track" kids can hardly speak about a thing they haven't been specifically trained to say. I know this because I've volunteered in their classes. They've been trained to verbalize greetings, I'd like to order the cashew chicken, I'm 12 years old and my favorite color is blue, please drive me to the Great Wall etc.. But ask them everyday questions like "What jobs do your parents do?" or "which system of governance do we have in this country and which one do they have in China" and watch their faces go blank. So what, exactly, does "academic work" constitute for MS kids? If they can't talk about sports, movies, what they did over the weekend, their extra-curriculars, the pop culture they like etc. for starters, what are they supposed to talk about?

They clearly understand better than they speak, but only if you speak to them like they're 3 year olds.

There's an issue. Of course there's an issue. There are no standards for speaking at YY or DCI. Everything goes because standards are unfair to families who can't host au pairs or afford immersion summer camps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Immersion aftercare is very expensive - this is why non-Spanish immersion programs cannot offer it everyday. There are not enough Chinese, French, Hebrew speakers in DC, and the teachers can't work overtime. There are unlikely to be enough native speakers in DC in the years regardless of who the ED is - as multiple native speakers have stated - they are unlikely to send their kids to an African American majority school in DC in any case, hence the long-standing Asian flight to MoCo - before, during, and after YY.

Simple untrue. DC isn't short on Chinese grad students surviving on student loans and modest stipends who'd relish extra hours working at YY after-care. Building speaking skills just isn't a priority for the program.

Come on, no racist pot shots, please. Asian flight to MoCo has slowed considerably now that downtown DC has a good many decent DCPS elementary schools.

[Anonymous]

It seems this discussion has become circular:

YY supporters: YY kids are getting a great opportunity to learn a language they wouldn't otherwise be exposed to, and getting a great education with lots of enrichment, etc.

YY critics: Their language skills are quite weak, laughable even. They need to do more to attract more Chinese kids and staff.

YY supporters: The Chinese families won't come. There are not enough native Chinese speakers in the area to really achieve critical mass.

I'm not in either camp; my kids at another immersion school with a large group of native speakers. Still, I ask--should the whole YY enterprise be thrown out the window if there are few native speakers in the program? Or is it still worthwhile?

And, is there perhaps a bit more that YY can do to attract native speaking families (although, it seems a pretty big hurdle if these families think YY is a school for black kids, since the % of black families at the school won't change anytime soon given the demographics of DC).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It seems this discussion has become circular:

YY supporters: YY kids are getting a great opportunity to learn a language they wouldn't otherwise be exposed to, and getting a great education with lots of enrichment, etc.

YY critics: Their language skills are quite weak, laughable even. They need to do more to attract more Chinese kids and staff.

YY supporters: The Chinese families won't come. There are not enough native Chinese speakers in the area to really achieve critical mass.

I'm not in either camp; my kids at another immersion school with a large group of native speakers. Still, I ask--should the whole YY enterprise be thrown out the window if there are few native speakers in the program? Or is it still worthwhile?

And, is there perhaps a bit more that YY can do to attract native speaking families (although, it seems a pretty big hurdle if these families think YY is a school for black kids, since the % of black families at the school won't change anytime soon given the demographics of DC).

PP again. Just another thought--it seems there is overarching disagreement about who the school should be serving. Current YY families apparently feel it is serving the needs of the children who already through the door well. YY detractors apparently feel that the mission of the school should include serving native speaking Mandarin families (or perhaps Cantonese too).

I may've missed the mark, but this is how things seem to be playing out on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It seems this discussion has become circular:

YY supporters: YY kids are getting a great opportunity to learn a language they wouldn't otherwise be exposed to, and getting a great education with lots of enrichment, etc.

YY critics: Their language skills are quite weak, laughable even. They need to do more to attract more Chinese kids and staff.

YY supporters: The Chinese families won't come. There are not enough native Chinese speakers in the area to really achieve critical mass.

I'm not in either camp; my kids at another immersion school with a large group of native speakers. Still, I ask--should the whole YY enterprise be thrown out the window if there are few native speakers in the program? Or is it still worthwhile?

And, is there perhaps a bit more that YY can do to attract native speaking families (although, it seems a pretty big hurdle if these families think YY is a school for black kids, since the % of black families at the school won't change anytime soon given the demographics of DC).

Right, you're making sense and asking good questions. But of course DCPS won't toss out one of the jewels in its crown.

On YY's current trajectory, what's going to happen is that parents who believe that their kids are getting a great opportunity to learn a language/culture they wouldn't have otherwise been exposed to will be in for a wake-up call when the kids hit the IB Diploma stage, and apply for college. The exams are graded in Geneva, and the emphasis is on speaking and writing, so no more fudging the Chinese, or the English either. Earning 4s and 5s on AP Chinese is a walk in the park. College Board tests of English (mostly multiple choice) aren't a killer either. But IB Diploma exams are different at both the Standard and Higher Levels. They were designed to test diplomats' children internationally. After DCI, it's hard to imagine the YY families without an ethnic family connection sticking with their Chinese language and cultural studies. They will have been fed a really sanitized version of the culture for up to 15 years, emerging without bilingual peers.

As for ethnic community buy-in. Things could change only if DCPC were to install a native speaker as HOS at YY, preferably one who's fluent in both Mandarin and Cantonese. It wouldn't be difficult to find a strong admin meeting this description if the position were advertised widely, particularly in NYC, Canada and Cal. As things stand, if your kids speak Chinese well and you're ethnic, you want nothing to do with YY or DCI. YY is commonly referred to as "the joke Chinese immersion school" in local dialect-speaking circles. It's not clear to Metro area immigrant Chinese why YY families want Chinese for their children when few seem to want anything to do with the "racist" dialect speakers in their own Metro area.

[Anonymous]

In many of these posts criticizing YY, there seems to be an undercurrent of elitism or snobbery directed at the non-native YY students and their families. Almost as if it's laughable that these families would even attempt to learn Chinese because they will never be able to speak better than an average native-speaking toddler, without any recognition of how difficult it can be for many Westerners to learn Chinese.
Look, YY is by no means perfect and could be doing more to better the students' speaking skills and attract more Chinese-speaking families. I think a lot of these points are very valid. But the tone of some of these posts makes it seem as though the Chinese community isn't very welcoming to non-natives who are legitimately interested in learning Chinese language and culture. I hope I'm wrong, and I hope that it's more about criticisms of the actual school rather than the students and families themselves.

[Anonymous]

If the YY kids get 4s or 5s on AP Chinese - that would be a success - and every post by native speakers reveals a pronounced racism that they should try and work through rather than spill their bile continually on this board. The majority of children in DC are black and Hispanic. There are more Vietnamese families in DC than Chinese. Any given PCS or DCPS by definition is supposed to be serving the majority of the kids in DC.

[Anonymous]

Any strong HS student who studies Chinese for a few years can score a 4 or 5 on AP Chinese. More than 80% of AP Chinese test takers earn 5s, the greatest percentage of any AP test. Really no need to bother with 50% Chinese immersion in ES and partial immersion in MS to get there.

Communicating in polite tones in English just isn't the strong suit of East Asian immigrants to this country. The great majority missed the Civil Rights Movement and don't understand institutionalized racism. They have many redeeming features though, particularly pragmatism, a strong work ethnic, and high levels of educational attainment as families, no matter where they start on the socioeconomic ladder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any strong HS student who studies Chinese for a few years can score a 4 or 5 on AP Chinese. More than 80% of AP Chinese test takers earn 5s, the greatest percentage of any AP test. Really no need to bother with 50% Chinese immersion in ES and partial immersion in MS to get there.

Communicating in polite tones in English just isn't the strong suit of East Asian immigrants to this country. The great majority missed the Civil Rights Movement and don't understand institutionalized racism. They have many redeeming features though, particularly pragmatism, a strong work ethnic, and high levels of educational attainment as families, no matter where they start on the socioeconomic ladder.

LOL. Well, that's a pretty forgiving explanation for "racist as fuck," which describes the unbelievable shit I've heard my first-generation Asian co-workers say (I work in medical research). To be fair, they seem to have shit to say about every other race and country, so they seem to be equal opportunity bigots. Definitely smart, hard-working and family-oriented, that is also completely true.