What is Middle Class....Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^^Please speak for yourself. I'm from Los Angeles, and I could have easily chosen to relocate there after graduate school on the east coast. I chose to live in DC (proper), and I am very happy with that choice. The nature of my work does not confine me to this city.

PP does speak for herself. the point is that a lot of people (not me!) who live close to cities would be ok living much further if their jobs were not in cities. for this reason saying that expensive cities are a choice misses an important part of the issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^Please speak for yourself. I'm from Los Angeles, and I could have easily chosen to relocate there after graduate school on the east coast. I chose to live in DC (proper), and I am very happy with that choice. The nature of my work does not confine me to this city.

PP does speak for herself. the point is that a lot of people (not me!) who live close to cities would be ok living much further if their jobs were not in cities. for this reason saying that expensive cities are a choice misses an important part of the issue.

Just because your job is in the city doesn't mean you have to live in the city. If you're one of the upper 5% earners and can afford it, great. I know many people who earn what is considered a good salary (say in the $80,000 to $120,000) range but have to live in the outskirts. In my last job in DC, a lot of people lived an hour away because that's what a middle-class salary allowed.

[Anonymous]

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You can argue that the majority of Americans *should* be able to afford these things, but the reality is that a tiny fraction in either DC or Peoria can. That's why they are angry and looking for change. Burying your head in the sand and complaining that DC is expensive doesn't change this.

+ 1. The fact that people earning these upper-level incomes - with the two cars, a city house, vacations, investing for college and retirement, and so on - don't understand that they are living high above everyone else IS having their heads in the sand. That's what's getting people angry. They don't appreciate how good they have it.

I very much appreciate, primarily because I came from a country where a $1K monthly income was considered a huge success. However, I can see how it might be difficult to appreciate if a person spent their whole life among the families who made no less than $200K. In their circle, a $300K income is normal and average.

I don't know. I'm the first PP above. I grew up with a 7-figure HHI, but I can still understand this. It's about not wanting to understand the experiences of people around you.

Same here. (I'm the poster below, who agreed with you.) I didn't grow up in a 7-figure HH, but it certainly qualified as upper-middle class - and I knew it, even by age 12 or 13. I knew that most kids did not have a large color TV in their (big) bedroom, a family membership in a nice tennis/pool club, vacations to interesting and often international destinations, season tickets to the Redskins (this is when they were at their height!), and so on. I appreciated what my parents were able to provide and knew very well that I was living better than 90% of kids my age.

Yours is the new form of bragging: I am/was super rich, but I am also VERY socially conscious.

Gag me with a spoon. (By the way, I grew up dirt poor and am not rich now either)

+1. For all their sanctimony, I'm sure these same people give little or nothing to charity.

Why the snark? I'm the one who first posted about growing up UMC in response to a poster saying that you need to have grown up low-income to understand that $300K is a high HHI. No. All you need to understand that fact is middle-school level statistics and some very readily available data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^Please speak for yourself. I'm from Los Angeles, and I could have easily chosen to relocate there after graduate school on the east coast. I chose to live in DC (proper), and I am very happy with that choice. The nature of my work does not confine me to this city.

PP does speak for herself. the point is that a lot of people (not me!) who live close to cities would be ok living much further if their jobs were not in cities. for this reason saying that expensive cities are a choice misses an important part of the issue.

Just because your job is in the city doesn't mean you have to live in the city. If you're one of the upper 5% earners and can afford it, great. I know many people who earn what is considered a good salary (say in the $80,000 to $120,000) range but have to live in the outskirts. In my last job in DC, a lot of people lived an hour away because that's what a middle-class salary allowed.

you don't have to live in the city for sure but unless you do you will have a terrible commute. the point is that many people live close to cities because they want short commutes rather than luxury goods (city living).

[Anonymous]

It's all relative and dependent on neighborhood

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's all relative and dependent on neighborhood

No, it's not. That's the whole point.

[Anonymous]

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I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

HHI of about 220K and yes, we actually do.

I'd love to see your budget. What's your mortgage? What is your budget annually for a couple of modest vacations?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP you seem to not understand that even though folks around here make more money, we have much higher living expenses. Our HHI is $180 and we live in DC. Mortgage is $1,800 and we have two kids in daycare at a neighborhood place run in a church basement for $2,400/month, which is pretty cheap for two kids under two in D.C.

My older sister and her family live in rural Indiana. Her HHI is $55k. Their mortgage is $300. Until recently they had two kids in daycare as well and that was by far heir biggest expense at $500/month.

Point is, our basic living expenses eat up a much larger portion of our income than what my sister's family does, even though we make several times what she does.

So many people here seem not to understand that choosing to live in a major city is an expensive lifestyle choice. Most people living in rural America realize that the mere ability to live within a major city is outside of their budget... living in a city is not a middle class lifestyle (at least not if it comes with all the other things people seem to be associating with "middle class"). I grew up in the rural Midwest and knew many people who commuted 90 miles to the nearest city for work every day because they did not see it as financially feasible to live closer. Living in a city, then calling yourself middle class despite having an income in the top 5% of the country ($214,462 or above) is like choosing to buy a mansion then complaining about not being able to afford a "middle class car" because of your mortgage. There is nothing wrong with living in a city, it gives access to a lot of great amenities, culture, educational opportunities, white collar jobs, short commutes, etc that rural America does not have. But it comes at a cost. If you make over $100-150k you are not middle class even if you choose to live in a high cost of living area (That being said, since so many people do live in the city with much lower incomes, I'm pretty sure it's elitist to consider yourself middle class at a $300k HHI even if just comparing yourself to the locals).

Yes, this! The high-income people are just not getting it. It's like talking to a wall.

These complainers could take that $250,000 HHI, still keeping their DC jobs, and move out 45 minutes where housing is half the price, and other expenses are significantly lower as well. That's what people in the real middle class do - they can't afford the city life. But it is only because these high earners have so much money coming in that they can afford to live in a major city in the first place.

It's as if I moved to Manhattan making $400.000' and then started complaining that my rent is $5000 for a little apartment - and that I'm really a middle class guy like the rest of America, once you factor in my higher living expenses. BUT....I could move out to Bethpage, LI and live like a king. The people in Bethpage (I just picked an example of a real middle to lower-middle income town) will see him as a 1 percenter, and correctly so.

But the underlying point is that when these upper-income people keep insisting how it's a middle-class lifestyle on $350,000 in the city, they are coming across as out-of-touch snobs to the majority of people who can't afford the city at all, and in fact are just getting by on 25% of that income.

45 minutes commute west of the city is Vienna, 17 miles away. Expenses for housing and other daily necessities like food are much cheaper there than in NW DC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can define middle class but hhi or by lifestyle. That's where the confusion is. Both answers are correct

No they are not. People seem to want to define middle class lifestyle by some nostalgic view of the '50s. The "middle" can't afford all of the things people are suggesting should be part of this lifestyle: short-ish commute, 4 BR house, 2 cars, vacations, savings for college & retirement, etc. Calling these things a "middle-class" lifestyle when they are out of reach for 90% of the country is part of the problem OP is getting at.

You can argue that the majority of Americans *should* be able to afford these things, but the reality is that a tiny fraction in either DC or Peoria can. That's why they are angry and looking for change. Burying your head in the sand and complaining that DC is expensive doesn't change this.

Why do they get angry at the government? Get higher education, start a business, work multiple jobs. Nobody ever said the government was supposed to put you on easy street.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all relative and dependent on neighborhood

No, it's not. That's the whole point.

There's no definition, it's either by income or lifestyle which is subjective to location. Don't get mad boo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can define middle class but hhi or by lifestyle. That's where the confusion is. Both answers are correct

No they are not. People seem to want to define middle class lifestyle by some nostalgic view of the '50s. The "middle" can't afford all of the things people are suggesting should be part of this lifestyle: short-ish commute, 4 BR house, 2 cars, vacations, savings for college & retirement, etc. Calling these things a "middle-class" lifestyle when they are out of reach for 90% of the country is part of the problem OP is getting at.

You can argue that the majority of Americans *should* be able to afford these things, but the reality is that a tiny fraction in either DC or Peoria can. That's why they are angry and looking for change. Burying your head in the sand and complaining that DC is expensive doesn't change this.

Why do they get angry at the government? Get higher education, start a business, work multiple jobs. Nobody ever said the government was supposed to put you on easy street.

+1. PP says complaining that dc is expensive doesn't change anything, but what does getting angry at the government accomplish either? Perhaps an adjustment of expectations is in order, because people are getting thrown off by the 50's model. Anyone who can afford the things most of the middle class did back then is now upper class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

HHI of about 220K and yes, we actually do.

I'd love to see your budget. What's your mortgage? What is your budget annually for a couple of modest vacations?

NP - I make around 100k - one child - and I feel like we live a pretty nice life. We even take vacations from time to time! Shocking I realize.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

HHI of about 220K and yes, we actually do.

I'd love to see your budget. What's your mortgage? What is your budget annually for a couple of modest vacations?

NP - I make around 100k - one child - and I feel like we live a pretty nice life. We even take vacations from time to time! Shocking I realize.....

I'm sure you do live a nice life. Your expectations of what constitutes a "nice life" is different than families making $50,000 HHI or $250,000 HHI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

HHI of about 220K and yes, we actually do.

I'd love to see your budget. What's your mortgage? What is your budget annually for a couple of modest vacations?

NP - I make around 100k - one child - and I feel like we live a pretty nice life. We even take vacations from time to time! Shocking I realize.....

I'm sure you do live a nice life. Your expectations of what constitutes a "nice life" is different than families making $50,000 HHI or $250,000 HHI.

I'm not sure what you mean really. I would expect some sort of different life at 250k? In what way? We have a nice house, good schools, and we take vacations. What else do we need??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can define middle class but hhi or by lifestyle. That's where the confusion is. Both answers are correct

No they are not. People seem to want to define middle class lifestyle by some nostalgic view of the '50s. The "middle" can't afford all of the things people are suggesting should be part of this lifestyle: short-ish commute, 4 BR house, 2 cars, vacations, savings for college & retirement, etc. Calling these things a "middle-class" lifestyle when they are out of reach for 90% of the country is part of the problem OP is getting at.

You can argue that the majority of Americans *should* be able to afford these things, but the reality is that a tiny fraction in either DC or Peoria can. That's why they are angry and looking for change. Burying your head in the sand and complaining that DC is expensive doesn't change this.

Why do they get angry at the government? Get higher education, start a business, work multiple jobs. Nobody ever said the government was supposed to put you on easy street.

+1. PP says complaining that dc is expensive doesn't change anything, but what does getting angry at the government accomplish either? Perhaps an adjustment of expectations is in order, because people are getting thrown off by the 50's model. Anyone who can afford the things most of the middle class did back then is now upper class.

It's even worse than that. In the 1950s, a man ALONE - with a SAHP - could buy a three-bedroom house in a nice close-in suburb, take the family out to diner at least once a week, buy clothes for the family at mid-range stores like Macy's, and afford a two-week driving vacation to California, stopping at the National Parks. Nowadays, it takes both parents working, and with the median income of $100,000 per family, would be hard-pressed to enjoy that lifestyle.

In other words, it used to take one man (we're taking 1950s, so I'm saying the man) earning a median income to afford a middle-class lifestyle. Now it takes TWO parents working, and the median income (factoring in a couple of kiddos) is not in the same class.

So PP is right....anyone enjoying a typical middle-class lifestyle today needs an upper-level income.