The insane cost of elder care

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My parents thought they had planned carefully but had no comprehension of elder care costs in the 21st century (neither did us kids). They were an accountant and administrative assistant with modest pensions and <$1 million in other savings. It's all gone after years of those $10k/month bills. My Dad passed at 86 and my 88-year old Mom is moving to a Medicaid facility this summer.

Sometimes that's how it goes when you get old. I have no better suggestion other than to not be sick for very long at the end.

Precisely what happened to us. My dad went to level 4 LTC at Hebrew Home in Rockville at 15K/month. Previously he'd had 24-hour private nurses at his home at ca. 30k/month. We burned through his savings, and his house sale proceeds, like a match through dry grass.

Now that he has passed, I'm wondering what to do in my own old age. "Not being sick for very long at the end" is the only solution in the US, unless you are very wealthy indeed.

+1. Unless you/your family has recenlty had to deal with elder care, you just don't get it. Unless you are independently wealthy, you can never save enough. And this is why more and more parents are moving in with their children - the money starts to run out.

You don't have to be "independently wealthy" to buy LTC. People just don't choose to spend their money that way. My in-laws did. And we will too. My father is broke enough that we will just spend down his assets and use Medicaid.

This is just not true, this insurance is ridiculously expensive. My parents had two policies (that did not kick in for 180 days so you're stuck with the cost early on) and the lovely state of Md decided that it was okay for the premiums to increase even though their policy was sold as a lifetime locked premium. This from a very reputable insurance company. As soon as MD passed the law the insurance company doubled their monthly premiums and that was in their fifties. They had to let it go by the time they retired because the premium cost over time out weighed their possible redeeming any usage. It was not inexpensive and I hate when people throw it around as if you are a total loser for not having it. LTC is for the WEALTHY but it will become insolvent with all the wealthy boomers who purchased it once they start cashing in, there just aren't enough policy holders to support that coming disaster.

You can buy plans with only 90 day wait period, your parents chose the 180 day wait period. My LMC parents (never made more than $40K as a family even with 3 kids at home) somehow managed to purchase LTC insurance in their 50s and have kept it up. They make it a priority so us kids are not straddled with figuring it out. They also were extremely frugal and saved a ton so they can manage their own retirement with only a bit of help from the kids. They will get $200/day should they ever need it.
It is not only the wealthy who purchase it. The wealthy actually do NOT need it. If you have $4M+, you can afford to pay for care or plan to put yourself in a CCRC by early 70s while still healthy. In a CCRC you don't really need LTC, it's covered by your upfront entry fee without any extra costs to you

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/investigations/nbc-ct-responds/exclusive-famous-soap-opera-stars-family-shares-frustration-over-long-term-care-policy/3032493/

My Dads current skilled nursing is $600/day so $200 helps but you still need to cover quite a bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My parents thought they had planned carefully but had no comprehension of elder care costs in the 21st century (neither did us kids). They were an accountant and administrative assistant with modest pensions and <$1 million in other savings. It's all gone after years of those $10k/month bills. My Dad passed at 86 and my 88-year old Mom is moving to a Medicaid facility this summer.

Sometimes that's how it goes when you get old. I have no better suggestion other than to not be sick for very long at the end.

Precisely what happened to us. My dad went to level 4 LTC at Hebrew Home in Rockville at 15K/month. Previously he'd had 24-hour private nurses at his home at ca. 30k/month. We burned through his savings, and his house sale proceeds, like a match through dry grass.

Now that he has passed, I'm wondering what to do in my own old age. "Not being sick for very long at the end" is the only solution in the US, unless you are very wealthy indeed.

+1. Unless you/your family has recenlty had to deal with elder care, you just don't get it. Unless you are independently wealthy, you can never save enough. And this is why more and more parents are moving in with their children - the money starts to run out.

You don't have to be "independently wealthy" to buy LTC. People just don't choose to spend their money that way. My in-laws did. And we will too. My father is broke enough that we will just spend down his assets and use Medicaid.

This is just not true, this insurance is ridiculously expensive. My parents had two policies (that did not kick in for 180 days so you're stuck with the cost early on) and the lovely state of Md decided that it was okay for the premiums to increase even though their policy was sold as a lifetime locked premium. This from a very reputable insurance company. As soon as MD passed the law the insurance company doubled their monthly premiums and that was in their fifties. They had to let it go by the time they retired because the premium cost over time out weighed their possible redeeming any usage. It was not inexpensive and I hate when people throw it around as if you are a total loser for not having it. LTC is for the WEALTHY but it will become insolvent with all the wealthy boomers who purchased it once they start cashing in, there just aren't enough policy holders to support that coming disaster.

My in-laws paid $50k each upfront for their policies. No ongoing premiums.

LTC insurance is well-recognized to be in dire straits--either they offer a reasonable deal and the company goes under and doesn't pay out as expected or they are increasingly unaffordable. Your in-laws better check the fine print. They may be okay or they may not be. There are so many think tanks working on how to solve this problem.

FIL is the type-A anxious type that DCUM knows well. It’s all good. And they are worth $20M so even if not, it’s still all good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I plan to self-euthanize once I can no longer live independently. I’m not going to enrich some crooked private industry because I’ve kept myself in good health. I’d rather leave money and assets to my kids at age eighty than spend $100k a year for an additinal 10-15 years to gaze out of a window being fed cafeteria food and missing my old life.

Serious question: what does this look like in reality, shooting yourself in the head? Do you not think that would be traumatic for your family?

You can’t possibly be serious. You’ve never heard of assisted suicide?

The problem is you have to have very strict end of life instructions in place before the dementia or medical catastrophe happens. One of my parents died relatively young of a prolonged and ugly cancer and the other, watching this, decided in no way did they want to be demented, stuck in a facility that is leeching their money and time. They put it strict instructions in their will and medical directives that if the person is unable to feed, clothe, or bathe themself, then they wanted to essentially not have any medical care given or even food. The estate attorney was, like, are you sure about this? It needed to be documented in multiple ways. This has been communicated to all of the kids. I don't know how this will play out when it actually happens though in terms of what the hospitals/medical facilities will do though.

Can this be written into estate planning docs in Virginia? Asking for a friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why after age 65, I will not seek any life saving medical care.
I don't want to pay, nor have my relatives pay, tens of thousands of dollars for me to merely exist in a LTC facility.

Talk to us when you are 65 and tell us if you feel the same way.

Ok, 65 is young, but what about 70, or 75? It’s really nearing the end of a lifespan. My father is kept alive by insane drugs, procedures, scans, experimental therapies. He is an alcoholic and has never taken care of his health, and yet he clings on

My mom is 80 and now a widow. She has opted to not pursue any of the standard cancer screenings. No more mammograms or colonoscopies for her. She says if that's what gets her, fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I plan to self-euthanize once I can no longer live independently. I’m not going to enrich some crooked private industry because I’ve kept myself in good health. I’d rather leave money and assets to my kids at age eighty than spend $100k a year for an additinal 10-15 years to gaze out of a window being fed cafeteria food and missing my old life.

Serious question: what does this look like in reality, shooting yourself in the head? Do you not think that would be traumatic for your family?

You can’t possibly be serious. You’ve never heard of assisted suicide?

Yes, I thought it wasn't legal in the US?

It is legal in some extremely limited ways in a couple places in the U.S. but you need to be both mentally sound and verified by multiple doctors as terminally ill, with death expected very soon. It is actually extremely difficult to legally commit suicide. There's a great book about it, "In Love" by Amy Bloom. Her husband was in the early stages of Alzheimers and she helped him find a way to end his life, ultimately needing to go to Switzerland.
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/09/1085387825/in-love-tells-the-true-story-of-a-writer-supporting-her-husbands-euthanasia-choi

[Anonymous]

Why don't we have Au Pairs for the elderly and disabled?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why don't we have Au Pairs for the elderly and disabled?

We do. They just have middle men who happen to be private equity firms. They charge $35 per hour. Now think about that when the actual care provider is making at most maybe a third of that. $35 per hour for 24/7 care…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My plan for when I hit retirement is to buy a small unit with lifetime continuing care in a retirement complex and a second house or condo somewhere either for winters (six months in Florida) or coastal New England (five months in spring to fall). When the time comes, I can sell the second property and upgrade the unit to a bigger 2-bedroom and live there full time. But I will have a foot in the door so they can't kick me out if I suddenly start declining, physically or cognitively. I am single, will always be single so no spouse to help take care of me. I want the guarantee of lifetime care no matter what happens. Yes, expensive, but I can make it happen. This plan is based on what good friends of my parents have done.

CCRCs are the way to go---good goal to be able to get in. If you can afford one, it's the best way to know you will be well taken care of. Paid entry fee to get my parents in (they have enough to qualify minus the entry fee). Best thing we ever did. They are a distance from us and refused to move closer. This way they are well taken care of and should they need more than independent living, it will seamlessly happen, and will not cost them (or us) a penny more---that's what the huge entry fee is for. Best part is, even if they "run out of money", the CCRC will still continue service---you are guaranteed to live your life there and they do NOT touch your monthly SS. Most who have run out of money are women over 95---there are 4 of them currently living there who pay nothing each month, husbands have long since died. 2 are still in independent living, the other 2 are in assisted living.

If you plan well it can happen---my parents are not wealthy. But made it happen.

Do you have any numbers to share? Which CCRCs are you talking about? What's the entrance fee? monthly cost? etc.

I'm not the PP you quoted, but I posted earlier, naming Collington in Bowie and Riderwood in Silver Spring.

There's a chart on this page with some sample pricing for Collington: https://collington.kendal.org/living-options/pricing-information/

They don't detail the "entrance fee." And you don't get all of that back. So, the monthly fee looks low because it isn't including a portion for the entrance fee.

Also, I noticed that the service level for "memory care" does not include assistance for daily grooming and toileting. That doesn't count as an amenity until you are in long term nursing care. The details on the website are lacking and of course they want you to think it's a good deal...to get you in the door.

If it diunds too good to be true, it probably is.

The entrance fees are on that chart.

My mom is currently in independent living there, so I don't yet have firsthand experience with the assisted living areas, but so far we are really happy with it. She wasn't to the point of needing help every day, but she would have recurring incidents (for instance, a UTI causing momentary dementia) that were hard for me to keep tabs on alone. Collington does things like wellness checks if you haven't opened your front door in 24 hours. Not to mention she's made tons of friends, who check in on her as well. The residents are well-educated (former) professionals for the most part, and there are tons of seminars and concerts and activities to keep people engaged. Very happy with it so far.

If you have two parents sharing a 2bd, for example, would you have to pay just one entry fee for the unit and two service packages? Or two entry fees even though sharing a unit?

That's a good question, and I'm sorry, I don't know the answer.

For my parents (not in DCUM, but a bit outside), they paid one entry fee ($450K) plus the 2nd person add on ($85K). Then there is the monthly rent (~4500) for first person plus the 2nd person addition (~$1500). For a 2bed/2bath, ~1200 sq ft. The entry fee "value back" declines by 2% each month for the first 49 months (4 years)---so if you die/no longer live there, you get an amount refunded accordingly during that time. After the 4 years, you get nothing returned.

If one person goes to nursing care, assisted living, or dementia care within the CCRC, the prices do not change drastically for the couple and the other gets to remain in the same 2 bed/2 bath. If one person dies, the other gets to remain for just the $4.5K monthly rent, but can choose to downsize to a smaller unit to save $$ if desired. The only price increase is for 3 meals/day cost that are provided in assisted living/nursing/dementia care, as in independent living you have $360/month per person which gives you easily dinner everyday and another 2-4 meals per week, possibly more depending which restaurant you choose to dine in. So you likely will pay an extra $200-300/month for meals and that is it. The added care levels is included in the entrance fee you paid (the $450K+ for the couple).

With cost of capital factored in, their entrance fees is about $700K ($535+ interest). Amortized over 50 months, that's about $14K/month. Add their $6K/month, they are paying $20K/month for 50 months and $6K/month thereafter, assuming they are healthy. Forget the other costs to keep it simple. Question is what happens to the cost if one or both of them need additional care (dementia, parkinson's, mobility issues, etc.). How much do those costs go up? You talk about "running out of money" in another post? What does that mean? Are there any stipulations on drawing down of their other assets to pay for care?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My plan for when I hit retirement is to buy a small unit with lifetime continuing care in a retirement complex and a second house or condo somewhere either for winters (six months in Florida) or coastal New England (five months in spring to fall). When the time comes, I can sell the second property and upgrade the unit to a bigger 2-bedroom and live there full time. But I will have a foot in the door so they can't kick me out if I suddenly start declining, physically or cognitively. I am single, will always be single so no spouse to help take care of me. I want the guarantee of lifetime care no matter what happens. Yes, expensive, but I can make it happen. This plan is based on what good friends of my parents have done.

CCRCs are the way to go---good goal to be able to get in. If you can afford one, it's the best way to know you will be well taken care of. Paid entry fee to get my parents in (they have enough to qualify minus the entry fee). Best thing we ever did. They are a distance from us and refused to move closer. This way they are well taken care of and should they need more than independent living, it will seamlessly happen, and will not cost them (or us) a penny more---that's what the huge entry fee is for. Best part is, even if they "run out of money", the CCRC will still continue service---you are guaranteed to live your life there and they do NOT touch your monthly SS. Most who have run out of money are women over 95---there are 4 of them currently living there who pay nothing each month, husbands have long since died. 2 are still in independent living, the other 2 are in assisted living.

If you plan well it can happen---my parents are not wealthy. But made it happen.

Do you have any numbers to share? Which CCRCs are you talking about? What's the entrance fee? monthly cost? etc.

I'm not the PP you quoted, but I posted earlier, naming Collington in Bowie and Riderwood in Silver Spring.

There's a chart on this page with some sample pricing for Collington: https://collington.kendal.org/living-options/pricing-information/

They don't detail the "entrance fee." And you don't get all of that back. So, the monthly fee looks low because it isn't including a portion for the entrance fee.

Also, I noticed that the service level for "memory care" does not include assistance for daily grooming and toileting. That doesn't count as an amenity until you are in long term nursing care. The details on the website are lacking and of course they want you to think it's a good deal...to get you in the door.

If it diunds too good to be true, it probably is.

The entrance fees are on that chart.

My mom is currently in independent living there, so I don't yet have firsthand experience with the assisted living areas, but so far we are really happy with it. She wasn't to the point of needing help every day, but she would have recurring incidents (for instance, a UTI causing momentary dementia) that were hard for me to keep tabs on alone. Collington does things like wellness checks if you haven't opened your front door in 24 hours. Not to mention she's made tons of friends, who check in on her as well. The residents are well-educated (former) professionals for the most part, and there are tons of seminars and concerts and activities to keep people engaged. Very happy with it so far.

If you have two parents sharing a 2bd, for example, would you have to pay just one entry fee for the unit and two service packages? Or two entry fees even though sharing a unit?

That's a good question, and I'm sorry, I don't know the answer.

For my parents (not in DCUM, but a bit outside), they paid one entry fee ($450K) plus the 2nd person add on ($85K). Then there is the monthly rent (~4500) for first person plus the 2nd person addition (~$1500). For a 2bed/2bath, ~1200 sq ft. The entry fee "value back" declines by 2% each month for the first 49 months (4 years)---so if you die/no longer live there, you get an amount refunded accordingly during that time. After the 4 years, you get nothing returned.

If one person goes to nursing care, assisted living, or dementia care within the CCRC, the prices do not change drastically for the couple and the other gets to remain in the same 2 bed/2 bath. If one person dies, the other gets to remain for just the $4.5K monthly rent, but can choose to downsize to a smaller unit to save $$ if desired. The only price increase is for 3 meals/day cost that are provided in assisted living/nursing/dementia care, as in independent living you have $360/month per person which gives you easily dinner everyday and another 2-4 meals per week, possibly more depending which restaurant you choose to dine in. So you likely will pay an extra $200-300/month for meals and that is it. The added care levels is included in the entrance fee you paid (the $450K+ for the couple).

You are paying $9000/month ON TOP OF THE MONTHLY FEE (ie. the $9000/mo. is the 2% of the entry fee you don't get refunded each month that you are there). That's on top of the $4500/mo rental fee. So, those of you claiming there are places that cost "only" $3500-5000, are not being honest with the math. You are paying $13,500 PER MONTH.

You have to include your pro-rata entrance fees in your monthly prices!

So, again ... where are these places that cost just $3500-$5000 for full-service, full-care including grooming and toileting for a person with full-blown Alzheimers (i.e. non-verbal, doesn't recognize anyone, not capable of taking care of their personal or hygeine needs). Where are these places?

[Anonymous]

People who have questions really should talk directly to various retirement and continuing care communities. There are always different pricing levels and programs involved. It can be complex, which is why straight from the mouth is better than relying on an internet forum. For example, some communities offer a lower entry fee that becomes a declining balance, while they also offer a much higher entry fee but in that case the estate gets most of it back when the unit is sold following a death. And the monthly fees also vary in both cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My plan for when I hit retirement is to buy a small unit with lifetime continuing care in a retirement complex and a second house or condo somewhere either for winters (six months in Florida) or coastal New England (five months in spring to fall). When the time comes, I can sell the second property and upgrade the unit to a bigger 2-bedroom and live there full time. But I will have a foot in the door so they can't kick me out if I suddenly start declining, physically or cognitively. I am single, will always be single so no spouse to help take care of me. I want the guarantee of lifetime care no matter what happens. Yes, expensive, but I can make it happen. This plan is based on what good friends of my parents have done.

CCRCs are the way to go---good goal to be able to get in. If you can afford one, it's the best way to know you will be well taken care of. Paid entry fee to get my parents in (they have enough to qualify minus the entry fee). Best thing we ever did. They are a distance from us and refused to move closer. This way they are well taken care of and should they need more than independent living, it will seamlessly happen, and will not cost them (or us) a penny more---that's what the huge entry fee is for. Best part is, even if they "run out of money", the CCRC will still continue service---you are guaranteed to live your life there and they do NOT touch your monthly SS. Most who have run out of money are women over 95---there are 4 of them currently living there who pay nothing each month, husbands have long since died. 2 are still in independent living, the other 2 are in assisted living.

If you plan well it can happen---my parents are not wealthy. But made it happen.

Do you have any numbers to share? Which CCRCs are you talking about? What's the entrance fee? monthly cost? etc.

I'm not the PP you quoted, but I posted earlier, naming Collington in Bowie and Riderwood in Silver Spring.

There's a chart on this page with some sample pricing for Collington: https://collington.kendal.org/living-options/pricing-information/

They don't detail the "entrance fee." And you don't get all of that back. So, the monthly fee looks low because it isn't including a portion for the entrance fee.

Also, I noticed that the service level for "memory care" does not include assistance for daily grooming and toileting. That doesn't count as an amenity until you are in long term nursing care. The details on the website are lacking and of course they want you to think it's a good deal...to get you in the door.

If it diunds too good to be true, it probably is.

The entrance fees are on that chart.

My mom is currently in independent living there, so I don't yet have firsthand experience with the assisted living areas, but so far we are really happy with it. She wasn't to the point of needing help every day, but she would have recurring incidents (for instance, a UTI causing momentary dementia) that were hard for me to keep tabs on alone. Collington does things like wellness checks if you haven't opened your front door in 24 hours. Not to mention she's made tons of friends, who check in on her as well. The residents are well-educated (former) professionals for the most part, and there are tons of seminars and concerts and activities to keep people engaged. Very happy with it so far.

If you have two parents sharing a 2bd, for example, would you have to pay just one entry fee for the unit and two service packages? Or two entry fees even though sharing a unit?

That's a good question, and I'm sorry, I don't know the answer.

For my parents (not in DCUM, but a bit outside), they paid one entry fee ($450K) plus the 2nd person add on ($85K). Then there is the monthly rent (~4500) for first person plus the 2nd person addition (~$1500). For a 2bed/2bath, ~1200 sq ft. The entry fee "value back" declines by 2% each month for the first 49 months (4 years)---so if you die/no longer live there, you get an amount refunded accordingly during that time. After the 4 years, you get nothing returned.

If one person goes to nursing care, assisted living, or dementia care within the CCRC, the prices do not change drastically for the couple and the other gets to remain in the same 2 bed/2 bath. If one person dies, the other gets to remain for just the $4.5K monthly rent, but can choose to downsize to a smaller unit to save $$ if desired. The only price increase is for 3 meals/day cost that are provided in assisted living/nursing/dementia care, as in independent living you have $360/month per person which gives you easily dinner everyday and another 2-4 meals per week, possibly more depending which restaurant you choose to dine in. So you likely will pay an extra $200-300/month for meals and that is it. The added care levels is included in the entrance fee you paid (the $450K+ for the couple).

You are paying $9000/month ON TOP OF THE MONTHLY FEE (ie. the $9000/mo. is the 2% of the entry fee you don't get refunded each month that you are there). That's on top of the $4500/mo rental fee. So, those of you claiming there are places that cost "only" $3500-5000, are not being honest with the math. You are paying $13,500 PER MONTH.

You have to include your pro-rata entrance fees in your monthly prices!

[b]So, again ... where are these places that cost just $3500-$5000 for full-service, full-care including grooming and toileting for a person with full-blown Alzheimers (i.e. non-verbal, doesn't recognize anyone, not capable of taking care of their personal or hygeine needs). Where are these places?

Here you go. These are closer to 5k

https://www.avalonresidentialliving.com/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People who have questions really should talk directly to various retirement and continuing care communities. There are always different pricing levels and programs involved. It can be complex, which is why straight from the mouth is better than relying on an internet forum. For example, some communities offer a lower entry fee that becomes a declining balance, while they also offer a much higher entry fee but in that case the estate gets most of it back when the unit is sold following a death. And the monthly fees also vary in both cases.

I'm the poster whose mom is at Collington in Bowie (not the one who described her parents' situation in detail). It is, in fact, a Quaker-founded NONPROFIT community. And 90% of her entry fee will be RETURNED to her estate upon her death or if she moves.

I saw her today and confirmed that, for her 1-bdrm apartment, her entry fee was 250k and her monthly rent is 4800. That includes weekly housekeeping, 1 daily meal, a completely renovated apartment that we got to design prior to move-in, on-site gym, physical therapy, indoor pool, on-site clinic and primary care doc, and activities galore. As the other poster said, my mom's social life is incredible now (I'm envious!).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My plan for when I hit retirement is to buy a small unit with lifetime continuing care in a retirement complex and a second house or condo somewhere either for winters (six months in Florida) or coastal New England (five months in spring to fall). When the time comes, I can sell the second property and upgrade the unit to a bigger 2-bedroom and live there full time. But I will have a foot in the door so they can't kick me out if I suddenly start declining, physically or cognitively. I am single, will always be single so no spouse to help take care of me. I want the guarantee of lifetime care no matter what happens. Yes, expensive, but I can make it happen. This plan is based on what good friends of my parents have done.

CCRCs are the way to go---good goal to be able to get in. If you can afford one, it's the best way to know you will be well taken care of. Paid entry fee to get my parents in (they have enough to qualify minus the entry fee). Best thing we ever did. They are a distance from us and refused to move closer. This way they are well taken care of and should they need more than independent living, it will seamlessly happen, and will not cost them (or us) a penny more---that's what the huge entry fee is for. Best part is, even if they "run out of money", the CCRC will still continue service---you are guaranteed to live your life there and they do NOT touch your monthly SS. Most who have run out of money are women over 95---there are 4 of them currently living there who pay nothing each month, husbands have long since died. 2 are still in independent living, the other 2 are in assisted living.

If you plan well it can happen---my parents are not wealthy. But made it happen.

Do you have any numbers to share? Which CCRCs are you talking about? What's the entrance fee? monthly cost? etc.

I'm not the PP you quoted, but I posted earlier, naming Collington in Bowie and Riderwood in Silver Spring.

There's a chart on this page with some sample pricing for Collington: https://collington.kendal.org/living-options/pricing-information/

They don't detail the "entrance fee." And you don't get all of that back. So, the monthly fee looks low because it isn't including a portion for the entrance fee.

Also, I noticed that the service level for "memory care" does not include assistance for daily grooming and toileting. That doesn't count as an amenity until you are in long term nursing care. The details on the website are lacking and of course they want you to think it's a good deal...to get you in the door.

If it diunds too good to be true, it probably is.

The entrance fees are on that chart.

My mom is currently in independent living there, so I don't yet have firsthand experience with the assisted living areas, but so far we are really happy with it. She wasn't to the point of needing help every day, but she would have recurring incidents (for instance, a UTI causing momentary dementia) that were hard for me to keep tabs on alone. Collington does things like wellness checks if you haven't opened your front door in 24 hours. Not to mention she's made tons of friends, who check in on her as well. The residents are well-educated (former) professionals for the most part, and there are tons of seminars and concerts and activities to keep people engaged. Very happy with it so far.

If you have two parents sharing a 2bd, for example, would you have to pay just one entry fee for the unit and two service packages? Or two entry fees even though sharing a unit?

That's a good question, and I'm sorry, I don't know the answer.

For my parents (not in DCUM, but a bit outside), they paid one entry fee ($450K) plus the 2nd person add on ($85K). Then there is the monthly rent (~4500) for first person plus the 2nd person addition (~$1500). For a 2bed/2bath, ~1200 sq ft. The entry fee "value back" declines by 2% each month for the first 49 months (4 years)---so if you die/no longer live there, you get an amount refunded accordingly during that time. After the 4 years, you get nothing returned.

If one person goes to nursing care, assisted living, or dementia care within the CCRC, the prices do not change drastically for the couple and the other gets to remain in the same 2 bed/2 bath. If one person dies, the other gets to remain for just the $4.5K monthly rent, but can choose to downsize to a smaller unit to save $$ if desired. The only price increase is for 3 meals/day cost that are provided in assisted living/nursing/dementia care, as in independent living you have $360/month per person which gives you easily dinner everyday and another 2-4 meals per week, possibly more depending which restaurant you choose to dine in. So you likely will pay an extra $200-300/month for meals and that is it. The added care levels is included in the entrance fee you paid (the $450K+ for the couple).

With cost of capital factored in, their entrance fees is about $700K ($535+ interest). Amortized over 50 months, that's about $14K/month. Add their $6K/month, they are paying $20K/month for 50 months and $6K/month thereafter, assuming they are healthy. Forget the other costs to keep it simple. Question is what happens to the cost if one or both of them need additional care (dementia, parkinson's, mobility issues, etc.). How much do those costs go up? You talk about "running out of money" in another post? What does that mean? Are there any stipulations on drawing down of their other assets to pay for care?

Cost do not go up. If they need additional care they transfer to that area with no additional cost except for meals. No stipulations, if they have money the “rent is paid” but social security is not touched. So their assets they had entering is the only money used to pay—ss is not included. So ovbsiouslynif one lives to 90+ they may run out of money but then not required to pay anything. Obviously the ccrc makes money on most people, and looses on a few.
Yes it is a high fee but nice to know they are taken care of no matter what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why after age 65, I will not seek any life saving medical care.
I don't want to pay, nor have my relatives pay, tens of thousands of dollars for me to merely exist in a LTC facility.

My dad always said that too, now at 80 he doesn't anymore.

Most people don’t. But it’s super easy to make that claim when your in your 30s, 40s or 50s.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My plan for when I hit retirement is to buy a small unit with lifetime continuing care in a retirement complex and a second house or condo somewhere either for winters (six months in Florida) or coastal New England (five months in spring to fall). When the time comes, I can sell the second property and upgrade the unit to a bigger 2-bedroom and live there full time. But I will have a foot in the door so they can't kick me out if I suddenly start declining, physically or cognitively. I am single, will always be single so no spouse to help take care of me. I want the guarantee of lifetime care no matter what happens. Yes, expensive, but I can make it happen. This plan is based on what good friends of my parents have done.

CCRCs are the way to go---good goal to be able to get in. If you can afford one, it's the best way to know you will be well taken care of. Paid entry fee to get my parents in (they have enough to qualify minus the entry fee). Best thing we ever did. They are a distance from us and refused to move closer. This way they are well taken care of and should they need more than independent living, it will seamlessly happen, and will not cost them (or us) a penny more---that's what the huge entry fee is for. Best part is, even if they "run out of money", the CCRC will still continue service---you are guaranteed to live your life there and they do NOT touch your monthly SS. Most who have run out of money are women over 95---there are 4 of them currently living there who pay nothing each month, husbands have long since died. 2 are still in independent living, the other 2 are in assisted living.

If you plan well it can happen---my parents are not wealthy. But made it happen.

Do you have any numbers to share? Which CCRCs are you talking about? What's the entrance fee? monthly cost? etc.

I'm not the PP you quoted, but I posted earlier, naming Collington in Bowie and Riderwood in Silver Spring.

There's a chart on this page with some sample pricing for Collington: https://collington.kendal.org/living-options/pricing-information/

They don't detail the "entrance fee." And you don't get all of that back. So, the monthly fee looks low because it isn't including a portion for the entrance fee.

Also, I noticed that the service level for "memory care" does not include assistance for daily grooming and toileting. That doesn't count as an amenity until you are in long term nursing care. The details on the website are lacking and of course they want you to think it's a good deal...to get you in the door.

If it diunds too good to be true, it probably is.

The entrance fees are on that chart.

My mom is currently in independent living there, so I don't yet have firsthand experience with the assisted living areas, but so far we are really happy with it. She wasn't to the point of needing help every day, but she would have recurring incidents (for instance, a UTI causing momentary dementia) that were hard for me to keep tabs on alone. Collington does things like wellness checks if you haven't opened your front door in 24 hours. Not to mention she's made tons of friends, who check in on her as well. The residents are well-educated (former) professionals for the most part, and there are tons of seminars and concerts and activities to keep people engaged. Very happy with it so far.

If you have two parents sharing a 2bd, for example, would you have to pay just one entry fee for the unit and two service packages? Or two entry fees even though sharing a unit?

That's a good question, and I'm sorry, I don't know the answer.

For my parents (not in DCUM, but a bit outside), they paid one entry fee ($450K) plus the 2nd person add on ($85K). Then there is the monthly rent (~4500) for first person plus the 2nd person addition (~$1500). For a 2bed/2bath, ~1200 sq ft. The entry fee "value back" declines by 2% each month for the first 49 months (4 years)---so if you die/no longer live there, you get an amount refunded accordingly during that time. After the 4 years, you get nothing returned.

If one person goes to nursing care, assisted living, or dementia care within the CCRC, the prices do not change drastically for the couple and the other gets to remain in the same 2 bed/2 bath. If one person dies, the other gets to remain for just the $4.5K monthly rent, but can choose to downsize to a smaller unit to save $$ if desired. The only price increase is for 3 meals/day cost that are provided in assisted living/nursing/dementia care, as in independent living you have $360/month per person which gives you easily dinner everyday and another 2-4 meals per week, possibly more depending which restaurant you choose to dine in. So you likely will pay an extra $200-300/month for meals and that is it. The added care levels is included in the entrance fee you paid (the $450K+ for the couple).

You are paying $9000/month ON TOP OF THE MONTHLY FEE (ie. the $9000/mo. is the 2% of the entry fee you don't get refunded each month that you are there). That's on top of the $4500/mo rental fee. So, those of you claiming there are places that cost "only" $3500-5000, are not being honest with the math. You are paying $13,500 PER MONTH.

You have to include your pro-rata entrance fees in your monthly prices!

So, again ... where are these places that cost just $3500-$5000 for full-service, full-care including grooming and toileting for a person with full-blown Alzheimers (i.e. non-verbal, doesn't recognize anyone, not capable of taking care of their personal or hygeine needs). Where are these places?

Never said we we paying only 3500 per month. But for 2 people it’s a good deal—especially if they are there for 10+ years.
No it’s not cheap. But it’s great care where my parents can s visit the other should one end up I care and I can manage from CA/cross country. Quality of life matters if you can afford it

Should my parents end up in more care their LTC will kick in and they will collect after the delay of 90 days