Why does no one acknowledge how overworked teachers are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this video is an important reminder for parents and administrators

https://fb.watch/hcxdi1BUVj/?mibextid=0LFGlp

Largely because people in the private sector work far more hours.

The "extra hours for free" and "unpaid overtime" comments make me roll my eyes. Do teachers realize that other professionals are classified as "exempt" and do not get paid overtime? "Overtime" is a concept for non-exempt employees.

Oh, and summers? MCPS pays teachers for spending time on workshops, etc. Is that not "overtime"?

Back to add, and union protection? Other professionals do not have this.

That's because they don't need it. Only people with crappy jobs need unions.

You are really over the top. You really have no idea how other salaried professionals live and work.

I bet you have toilet paper and functioning bathrooms and soap. I bet you don’t have rodent and insect infestations in your workplace. I bet you have heating and a/c that works.

Do other professionals have to purchase their own office supplies, and supplies for others?

I just did a replenish on classroom supplies: paper, spare pens/pencils, dry erase markers, tissue, hand sanitizer, cleaning wipes. I dropped another $45 on my classroom. I’ll do it again in a couple months.

No, my high school does not allow us to ask parents.

Yes, they do. Lady, I had to buy my own laptop for my job. It cost more than $45.

Do teachers need like a teacher-only slack or something to talk about this stuff? These are just random job complaints. We all have them. I complain about them to my colleagues and my spouse.

Also, the amount of money I have spent on providing classroom supplies to my kids' schools over the years... it's a lot. I've bought art supplies and blocks and cleaning supplies and tissues and paper and pencils. I've helped by new rugs, contributed to funds for smart boards, paid for snacks. All of it. I get your HS apparently says you can't ask parents, which is weird, but most parents buy stuff like this for classrooms all the time. I got a note that there's a lot of runny noses in my kid's classroom this time a year and just grabbed a box of tissue and threw it in my kid's backpack this morning. My kid doesn't have a runny nose, but whatever I can do.

When I need supplies for work that my office won't pay for, no one just brings them to me! Ever.

DP. I agree with others that this shouldn't be a suffering Olympics. I also agree that all professions should be provided with the supplies they need to do their jobs. With that said, PP's point about how much money (and time) many parents put into providing supplies for schools never seems to be acknowledged.

It's difficult to have these conversations about improving the teaching profession when 1) many teachers have unions and most working professionals don't; 2) the union is responsible for negotiating contracts that should create favorable working conditions (but obviously don't); 3) Parents have less ability to improve teacher working conditions that any stakeholder in education. There is no other workplace where people volunteer time, money, and supplies as they do in education. Many of us are exhausted from being overworked in our own workplaces, while simultaneously supporting teachers and schools in general. Often, it feels like public schools are constant time and energy sucks that take away from what should be our primary job, parenting our children. And, like teachers, what parents do is never enough. It makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid’s teachers make more money than I do and get better benefits. I very much appreciate them, am always polite, do not try to take their time or make their lives harder. But this idea that I somehow inadequately appreciate teachers is weird to me. Or the idea that I owe them lots of gift cards or gifts. I always make a point of sending thank you cards and, if it is in budget, a target gift card. Beyond that I really don’t think anything else should be expected of me as a parent.

Just how appreciative do I need to be? I am honestly not that appreciated in my job.

+10

Teacher here, who posted above about AP workloads. I don’t need appreciation. I don’t expect it at holidays or at the end of the year. I do appreciate thank you letters when I write college recommendations, but I know not to expect them since they come about 2-5% of the time.

I’d be happy if I can just get some respect. That might look like not calling my job “easy” and telling me to appreciate my summers off. Those 4-5 weeks aren’t much of a trade-off for the grueling 60-70 hour weeks throughout the year.

Nobody does that. No one.

oh please-they do!!!

But dii ok you get that the jerks who say teachers jobs are easy or “enjoy your summers off” also put other people down for their jobs. I work in marketing, I make 85k a year, I work long hours for some people who are very full of themselves (lawyers). They all think my job is super easy and that anyone can do it, in part because they don’t understand that like 70% of my job is trying to make them happy which is impossible. I’ve heard any manner of snide comments from not just people I meet but people I actually work with about how my job is easy or is just sitting around resizing photos or something. I also do several client retreats a year and people act like this is done kind of relaxing vacation for me (“enjoy your vacation”) because they don’t understand that while the lawyers are out to dinner with clients I’m sitting in my hotel room until 1am collating handouts and finalizing the power point the partners will claim credit for in the morning. And while I’m on these “trips” my DH is pulling double duty at home and I miss my kids.

Is my job as important or necessary as a teacher’s? No, I realize that. But I work very hard, am not particularly well compensated, get treated not great by a bunch of people who make WAY more than me (and more even than the go consultants who do make dumb curriculum decisions that impact teachers) and regularly feel pretty underappreciated.

But no one ever asks “Why does no one acknowledge how overworked marketing professionals are?” And I wouldn’t ask that either, it’s silly. I chose this dumb profession and this dumb job, and while I fantasize about doing something else, the money isn’t horrible for someone with a BA and I get a good employee match on my 401k.

Work is work. Teachers are not uniquely beleaguered and they are NOT underappreciated. I appreciate my kids teachers everyday. Of course there are people who are going to put it down— the world is full of arrogant jerks who don’t think anyone making less than 500k/yr (and especially anyone in a female-dominated profession) is worthwhile. Welcome to the club.

There is a big difference between you and a teacher - you can move up, get more responsibility, get more prestige. Teachers can't - you live at the bottom of the barrel in the educational system, and it never gets any better no matter how hard you work or how good you get. I'm not suggesting teachers need more appreciation or even more money - they don't, actually. What they need is for people to recognize that the problem with the teacher shortage is not that we need we need better working conditions. We need respect from administration, we need some voice in the system. I found my experience as a teacher demeaning and generally bad for my self-esteem. I left for a job with one half the pay and was much happier.

Teachers can become principals, administrators, etc. they are definitely not stuck.

No, this is a misconception. First, administrator and principal is the same thing, but it's not a promotion from teaching. One has to get a whole new graduate degree. After getting the degree, a teacher can apply for Assistant Principal positions. If they get one, then they have to spend at least 5 years as AP before applying for a principal job. A lot of people never make it to principal. It's definitely not about being a good teacher, that's for sure, and not something you can get moved up to just by working hard and being good at your job.

Ok but I’m the marketing pro from earlier and do you understand the same career trajectory is also true for me? I work at a law firm. I’m never going to become a partner here. In theory I could become like a CMO, but I’d almost certainly have to get a masters, and in my experience many of the CMOs also have JDs. I could go work in a different industry but I’d lose the value if all my industry knowledge that way. There are lateral moves I can make, into business development maybe, but these don’t come with huge pay increases. There are firms that pay fir my role or where I could move into a slightly more senior position, but realistically the most I’m going to make in my career is around 140k, and that’s with a lot of seniority and probably towards the end of my career. A colleague of mine jokes that eventually they just keep changing your title but you never get raises beyond COLA and it’s not untrue.

I think the person upthread who said some teachers overestimate the pay and other rewards in professional jobs requiring a BA, outside of teaching, was right. Most people I know who make more that 150k and work reasonable hours have graduate degrees. It’s really not that common. I also know lots of people who make this much but still work very long hours.

I see what us challenging about being a teacher and I don’t know if I could do it. Being on your feet all day, the lack of breaks, being responsible for that many kids at once, having so much of your curriculum dictated by others, the way teachers are evaluated. I get it— it’s a hard job and as I said, I really appreciate what teachers do. I also have done actual sense of the job, since I have kids in school, plus I once was a kid in school.

I guarantee you none of my kid’s teachers have any clue what my job is or what is hard about it or how I am treated. I’m sure it looks cushy from the outside because I do get to WFH sometimes (though that is definitely a new phenomenon since Covid and is very curtailed since return to office). My point is: it’s not. I’m not making 150k to just sit around and have two meetings and write 10 emails a day. I don’t get treated great by my mosses and I don’t feel appreciated by society at all.

And I think my experience is pretty average for parents. There are some who have it worse and some who have it better. I don’t think teachers are uniquely underappreciated or disrespected, and in some ways you are much more appreciated and respected than many of the parents of the kids you teach.

DP; you just seem to really hate your job and want to make this thread about you

That's the point though. This thread is actually just about teachers who hate their jobs and want to complain about them, but in the guise of "parents don't appreciate us enough." Like there are teachers on this thread who are acting like teaching is the WORST POSSIBLE JOB when it very clearly is not.

This thread is just a laundry list of things teachers find annoying about their jobs and some are valid and some less so. I don't get what the point is, really.

I think the point is that on any given day on social media, in the news, and most relevantly here, on this forum, you can find multiple threads questioning teachers, criticizing teachers, blaming teachers, etc. let me know when your job is under a constant spotlight by people who have no connection to your work. Not from your rude coworkers.

You could say this about a lot of things. Doctors, pediatricians, therapists, mothers, women in general…. Maybe I don’t read enough DCUM, but I don’t see this plethora of posts questioning teachers and putting them under a constant spotlight.

Okay

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this video is an important reminder for parents and administrators

https://fb.watch/hcxdi1BUVj/?mibextid=0LFGlp

Largely because people in the private sector work far more hours.

The "extra hours for free" and "unpaid overtime" comments make me roll my eyes. Do teachers realize that other professionals are classified as "exempt" and do not get paid overtime? "Overtime" is a concept for non-exempt employees.

Oh, and summers? MCPS pays teachers for spending time on workshops, etc. Is that not "overtime"?

Back to add, and union protection? Other professionals do not have this.

That's because they don't need it. Only people with crappy jobs need unions.

You are really over the top. You really have no idea how other salaried professionals live and work.

I bet you have toilet paper and functioning bathrooms and soap. I bet you don’t have rodent and insect infestations in your workplace. I bet you have heating and a/c that works.

Do other professionals have to purchase their own office supplies, and supplies for others?

I just did a replenish on classroom supplies: paper, spare pens/pencils, dry erase markers, tissue, hand sanitizer, cleaning wipes. I dropped another $45 on my classroom. I’ll do it again in a couple months.

No, my high school does not allow us to ask parents.

Yes, they do. Lady, I had to buy my own laptop for my job. It cost more than $45.

Do teachers need like a teacher-only slack or something to talk about this stuff? These are just random job complaints. We all have them. I complain about them to my colleagues and my spouse.

Also, the amount of money I have spent on providing classroom supplies to my kids' schools over the years... it's a lot. I've bought art supplies and blocks and cleaning supplies and tissues and paper and pencils. I've helped by new rugs, contributed to funds for smart boards, paid for snacks. All of it. I get your HS apparently says you can't ask parents, which is weird, but most parents buy stuff like this for classrooms all the time. I got a note that there's a lot of runny noses in my kid's classroom this time a year and just grabbed a box of tissue and threw it in my kid's backpack this morning. My kid doesn't have a runny nose, but whatever I can do.

When I need supplies for work that my office won't pay for, no one just brings them to me! Ever.

DP. I agree with others that this shouldn't be a suffering Olympics. I also agree that all professions should be provided with the supplies they need to do their jobs. With that said, PP's point about how much money (and time) many parents put into providing supplies for schools never seems to be acknowledged.

It's difficult to have these conversations about improving the teaching profession when 1) many teachers have unions and most working professionals don't; 2) the union is responsible for negotiating contracts that should create favorable working conditions (but obviously don't); 3) Parents have less ability to improve teacher working conditions that any stakeholder in education. There is no other workplace where people volunteer time, money, and supplies as they do in education. Many of us are exhausted from being overworked in our own workplaces, while simultaneously supporting teachers and schools in general. Often, it feels like public schools are constant time and energy sucks that take away from what should be our primary job, parenting our children. And, like teachers, what parents do is never enough. It makes no sense.

It’s a suck, because it’s dysfunctional. Have you ever tried to schedule a play date with a parental set that refuse to communicate? And just watch the passive agressive messages fly? Or make the mistake of hiring a poor manager? And it creates 3x the amount of work as just doing that person’s job? Schools in America become everything from a solution to childhood hunger to social issues to adult anxieties. Some of this is deliberately done by people who want to tear down public school systems, knowing they will buckle. The solution is either to find a well-run private school or work at fixing the underlying dysfunction starting with stopping the finger pointing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this video is an important reminder for parents and administrators

https://fb.watch/hcxdi1BUVj/?mibextid=0LFGlp

Largely because people in the private sector work far more hours.

The "extra hours for free" and "unpaid overtime" comments make me roll my eyes. Do teachers realize that other professionals are classified as "exempt" and do not get paid overtime? "Overtime" is a concept for non-exempt employees.

Oh, and summers? MCPS pays teachers for spending time on workshops, etc. Is that not "overtime"?

Back to add, and union protection? Other professionals do not have this.

That's because they don't need it. Only people with crappy jobs need unions.

You are really over the top. You really have no idea how other salaried professionals live and work.

I bet you have toilet paper and functioning bathrooms and soap. I bet you don’t have rodent and insect infestations in your workplace. I bet you have heating and a/c that works.

Do other professionals have to purchase their own office supplies, and supplies for others?

I just did a replenish on classroom supplies: paper, spare pens/pencils, dry erase markers, tissue, hand sanitizer, cleaning wipes. I dropped another $45 on my classroom. I’ll do it again in a couple months.

No, my high school does not allow us to ask parents.

Yes, they do. Lady, I had to buy my own laptop for my job. It cost more than $45.

Do teachers need like a teacher-only slack or something to talk about this stuff? These are just random job complaints. We all have them. I complain about them to my colleagues and my spouse.

Also, the amount of money I have spent on providing classroom supplies to my kids' schools over the years... it's a lot. I've bought art supplies and blocks and cleaning supplies and tissues and paper and pencils. I've helped by new rugs, contributed to funds for smart boards, paid for snacks. All of it. I get your HS apparently says you can't ask parents, which is weird, but most parents buy stuff like this for classrooms all the time. I got a note that there's a lot of runny noses in my kid's classroom this time a year and just grabbed a box of tissue and threw it in my kid's backpack this morning. My kid doesn't have a runny nose, but whatever I can do.

When I need supplies for work that my office won't pay for, no one just brings them to me! Ever.

DP. I agree with others that this shouldn't be a suffering Olympics. I also agree that all professions should be provided with the supplies they need to do their jobs. With that said, PP's point about how much money (and time) many parents put into providing supplies for schools never seems to be acknowledged.

It's difficult to have these conversations about improving the teaching profession when 1) many teachers have unions and most working professionals don't; 2) the union is responsible for negotiating contracts that should create favorable working conditions (but obviously don't); 3) Parents have less ability to improve teacher working conditions that any stakeholder in education. There is no other workplace where people volunteer time, money, and supplies as they do in education. Many of us are exhausted from being overworked in our own workplaces, while simultaneously supporting teachers and schools in general. Often, it feels like public schools are constant time and energy sucks that take away from what should be our primary job, parenting our children. And, like teachers, what parents do is never enough. It makes no sense.

It’s a suck, because it’s dysfunctional. Have you ever tried to schedule a play date with a parental set that refuse to communicate? And just watch the passive agressive messages fly? Or make the mistake of hiring a poor manager? And it creates 3x the amount of work as just doing that person’s job? Schools in America become everything from a solution to childhood hunger to social issues to adult anxieties. Some of this is deliberately done by people who want to tear down public school systems, knowing they will buckle. The solution is either to find a well-run private school or work at fixing the underlying dysfunction starting with stopping the finger pointing

Agreed, which is why an entire thread this is just "why won't anyone acknowledge how overworked teacher are" is not very productive because lots of us can acknowledge how overworked teachers are, while also pointing out that we are also overworked.

I felt this way through the first two years of the pandemic during the debate over school closures, but I am baffled as to why teachers unions don't work to organize more with parent groups. It's an obvious alliance. Teachers' working conditions are kids' learning conditions. Most parents I know want teachers who are well-compensated, have time to prepare, have adequate coverage for sick days, etc. Parents want quality facilities and good supplies. I don't know any parents who are like "I hope my kids teacher is buried in random administrative duties for an extra 6 hours a day and also has to purchase all the classroom supplies herself and can't take a sick day because of the sub shortage." No parent wants that.

But so often parents are seen and talked about as the enemy. We're really not. The actual enemy are policymakers who refuse to value or fund education, central office administrators who cater to the whims of politicians and consultants, those consultants who suck up education funds that could go to actual educators, and government oversight that is weak at best, actively oppositional at worst.

What if teachers and parents worked together to combat the actual enemy. What if instead of a million threads on here about how "parents don't respect what I do" or "teachers complain to much" or whatever, we worked together to actually deal with these problems. Just a suggestion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think teachers are overworked. The actual work isn’t hard. What’s hard is unruly kids and I think as a society we need to have a larger discussion about what to do about them. There’s an unwillingness to have them in separate classrooms

My work isn’t hard?

Please prepare and deliver 25 hours of presentations next week. (You will also be held responsible for the outcome of those presentations, so make sure your audience fully understands and can demonstrate that understanding.)

Please leave comments on 320 pages of AP essays. You’ll need to read them thoroughly, of course, but you’ll also have to leave feedback that is clear AND provides next-steps for the following essay. Make sure you track these comments so you can follow up on each individual one when you read the next 320 pages… in two weeks.

Please find time in your 30 available minutes each day to respond to 25-30 student / parent emails. You’ll likely have to eat your lunch at the same time.

Please remember to update 20-25 student IEP plans. The head of the SpEd department (and the law) require you to provide altered tests for some, oral instructions for others, and for two of them make sure you find time after school to read the entire test orally, transcribing student responses. You probably don’t have any of the altered tests ready, so find some time to get that done.

You have a new unit on Cold War fiction starting in two weeks. It’s been a while since you’ve covered that, so you better reread all of your novels and notes. It’s probably a good idea to look for some better criticism. What you used last year didn’t really help the students as much as you would have liked. Better yet… do that AND prepare a lesson demonstrating how students can find their own criticism.

Your correct. It’s an absolute walk in the park.

You're.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid’s teachers make more money than I do and get better benefits. I very much appreciate them, am always polite, do not try to take their time or make their lives harder. But this idea that I somehow inadequately appreciate teachers is weird to me. Or the idea that I owe them lots of gift cards or gifts. I always make a point of sending thank you cards and, if it is in budget, a target gift card. Beyond that I really don’t think anything else should be expected of me as a parent.

Just how appreciative do I need to be? I am honestly not that appreciated in my job.

+10

Teacher here, who posted above about AP workloads. I don’t need appreciation. I don’t expect it at holidays or at the end of the year. I do appreciate thank you letters when I write college recommendations, but I know not to expect them since they come about 2-5% of the time.

I’d be happy if I can just get some respect. That might look like not calling my job “easy” and telling me to appreciate my summers off. Those 4-5 weeks aren’t much of a trade-off for the grueling 60-70 hour weeks throughout the year.

Nobody does that. No one.

oh please-they do!!!

But dii ok you get that the jerks who say teachers jobs are easy or “enjoy your summers off” also put other people down for their jobs. I work in marketing, I make 85k a year, I work long hours for some people who are very full of themselves (lawyers). They all think my job is super easy and that anyone can do it, in part because they don’t understand that like 70% of my job is trying to make them happy which is impossible. I’ve heard any manner of snide comments from not just people I meet but people I actually work with about how my job is easy or is just sitting around resizing photos or something. I also do several client retreats a year and people act like this is done kind of relaxing vacation for me (“enjoy your vacation”) because they don’t understand that while the lawyers are out to dinner with clients I’m sitting in my hotel room until 1am collating handouts and finalizing the power point the partners will claim credit for in the morning. And while I’m on these “trips” my DH is pulling double duty at home and I miss my kids.

Is my job as important or necessary as a teacher’s? No, I realize that. But I work very hard, am not particularly well compensated, get treated not great by a bunch of people who make WAY more than me (and more even than the go consultants who do make dumb curriculum decisions that impact teachers) and regularly feel pretty underappreciated.

But no one ever asks “Why does no one acknowledge how overworked marketing professionals are?” And I wouldn’t ask that either, it’s silly. I chose this dumb profession and this dumb job, and while I fantasize about doing something else, the money isn’t horrible for someone with a BA and I get a good employee match on my 401k.

Work is work. Teachers are not uniquely beleaguered and they are NOT underappreciated. I appreciate my kids teachers everyday. Of course there are people who are going to put it down— the world is full of arrogant jerks who don’t think anyone making less than 500k/yr (and especially anyone in a female-dominated profession) is worthwhile. Welcome to the club.

There is a big difference between you and a teacher - you can move up, get more responsibility, get more prestige. Teachers can't - you live at the bottom of the barrel in the educational system, and it never gets any better no matter how hard you work or how good you get. I'm not suggesting teachers need more appreciation or even more money - they don't, actually. What they need is for people to recognize that the problem with the teacher shortage is not that we need we need better working conditions. We need respect from administration, we need some voice in the system. I found my experience as a teacher demeaning and generally bad for my self-esteem. I left for a job with one half the pay and was much happier.

Teachers can become principals, administrators, etc. they are definitely not stuck.

No, this is a misconception. First, administrator and principal is the same thing, but it's not a promotion from teaching. One has to get a whole new graduate degree. After getting the degree, a teacher can apply for Assistant Principal positions. If they get one, then they have to spend at least 5 years as AP before applying for a principal job. A lot of people never make it to principal. It's definitely not about being a good teacher, that's for sure, and not something you can get moved up to just by working hard and being good at your job.

ummm.... what you described is true in very many professions. Nurses don't magically become NPs because they're good nurses. Engineers don't magically become CEOs because they're good engineers.
Further education, getting a slightly different job, and being deputies/assistants/etc are how you move up. Everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this video is an important reminder for parents and administrators

https://fb.watch/hcxdi1BUVj/?mibextid=0LFGlp

Largely because people in the private sector work far more hours.

The "extra hours for free" and "unpaid overtime" comments make me roll my eyes. Do teachers realize that other professionals are classified as "exempt" and do not get paid overtime? "Overtime" is a concept for non-exempt employees.

Oh, and summers? MCPS pays teachers for spending time on workshops, etc. Is that not "overtime"?

Back to add, and union protection? Other professionals do not have this.

That's because they don't need it. Only people with crappy jobs need unions.

You are really over the top. You really have no idea how other salaried professionals live and work.

I bet you have toilet paper and functioning bathrooms and soap. I bet you don’t have rodent and insect infestations in your workplace. I bet you have heating and a/c that works.

This hasn't always been the case for me. We had mice in our office building and AC that couldn't keep the room below 80°. One small office I worked in had roaches and the heating sucked so bad I had to drink hot water all day long so my fingers wouldn't go numb.

Yes, schools should be stocked, functioning, and comfortable. But don't act like even white collar people don't have discomforts. I think you should try complaining to a construction worker about your issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this video is an important reminder for parents and administrators

https://fb.watch/hcxdi1BUVj/?mibextid=0LFGlp

Largely because people in the private sector work far more hours.

The "extra hours for free" and "unpaid overtime" comments make me roll my eyes. Do teachers realize that other professionals are classified as "exempt" and do not get paid overtime? "Overtime" is a concept for non-exempt employees.

Oh, and summers? MCPS pays teachers for spending time on workshops, etc. Is that not "overtime"?

Back to add, and union protection? Other professionals do not have this.

That's because they don't need it. Only people with crappy jobs need unions.

You are really over the top. You really have no idea how other salaried professionals live and work.

I bet you have toilet paper and functioning bathrooms and soap. I bet you don’t have rodent and insect infestations in your workplace. I bet you have heating and a/c that works.

LOL - Fed here who spent Monday morning cleaning up the mouse droppings on my desk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid’s teachers make more money than I do and get better benefits. I very much appreciate them, am always polite, do not try to take their time or make their lives harder. But this idea that I somehow inadequately appreciate teachers is weird to me. Or the idea that I owe them lots of gift cards or gifts. I always make a point of sending thank you cards and, if it is in budget, a target gift card. Beyond that I really don’t think anything else should be expected of me as a parent.

Just how appreciative do I need to be? I am honestly not that appreciated in my job.

+10

Teacher here, who posted above about AP workloads. I don’t need appreciation. I don’t expect it at holidays or at the end of the year. I do appreciate thank you letters when I write college recommendations, but I know not to expect them since they come about 2-5% of the time.

I’d be happy if I can just get some respect. That might look like not calling my job “easy” and telling me to appreciate my summers off. Those 4-5 weeks aren’t much of a trade-off for the grueling 60-70 hour weeks throughout the year.

Nobody does that. No one.

oh please-they do!!!

But dii ok you get that the jerks who say teachers jobs are easy or “enjoy your summers off” also put other people down for their jobs. I work in marketing, I make 85k a year, I work long hours for some people who are very full of themselves (lawyers). They all think my job is super easy and that anyone can do it, in part because they don’t understand that like 70% of my job is trying to make them happy which is impossible. I’ve heard any manner of snide comments from not just people I meet but people I actually work with about how my job is easy or is just sitting around resizing photos or something. I also do several client retreats a year and people act like this is done kind of relaxing vacation for me (“enjoy your vacation”) because they don’t understand that while the lawyers are out to dinner with clients I’m sitting in my hotel room until 1am collating handouts and finalizing the power point the partners will claim credit for in the morning. And while I’m on these “trips” my DH is pulling double duty at home and I miss my kids.

Is my job as important or necessary as a teacher’s? No, I realize that. But I work very hard, am not particularly well compensated, get treated not great by a bunch of people who make WAY more than me (and more even than the go consultants who do make dumb curriculum decisions that impact teachers) and regularly feel pretty underappreciated.

But no one ever asks “Why does no one acknowledge how overworked marketing professionals are?” And I wouldn’t ask that either, it’s silly. I chose this dumb profession and this dumb job, and while I fantasize about doing something else, the money isn’t horrible for someone with a BA and I get a good employee match on my 401k.

Work is work. Teachers are not uniquely beleaguered and they are NOT underappreciated. I appreciate my kids teachers everyday. Of course there are people who are going to put it down— the world is full of arrogant jerks who don’t think anyone making less than 500k/yr (and especially anyone in a female-dominated profession) is worthwhile. Welcome to the club.

There is a big difference between you and a teacher - you can move up, get more responsibility, get more prestige. Teachers can't - you live at the bottom of the barrel in the educational system, and it never gets any better no matter how hard you work or how good you get. I'm not suggesting teachers need more appreciation or even more money - they don't, actually. What they need is for people to recognize that the problem with the teacher shortage is not that we need we need better working conditions. We need respect from administration, we need some voice in the system. I found my experience as a teacher demeaning and generally bad for my self-esteem. I left for a job with one half the pay and was much happier.

Teachers can become principals, administrators, etc. they are definitely not stuck.

No, this is a misconception. First, administrator and principal is the same thing, but it's not a promotion from teaching. One has to get a whole new graduate degree. After getting the degree, a teacher can apply for Assistant Principal positions. If they get one, then they have to spend at least 5 years as AP before applying for a principal job. A lot of people never make it to principal. It's definitely not about being a good teacher, that's for sure, and not something you can get moved up to just by working hard and being good at your job.

ummm.... what you described is true in very many professions. Nurses don't magically become NPs because they're good nurses. Engineers don't magically become CEOs because they're good engineers.
Further education, getting a slightly different job, and being deputies/assistants/etc are how you move up. Everywhere.

This. This is why this stuff is coming off as tone deaf. Some of the teachers on this thread sound very naive about how jobs and careers work in other fields. A lot of what is being complained about is just how it is with most professional jobs.

I do think teachers are often disrespected because (1) they work with kids, and our culture devalues any kind of child-centered work, and (2) it's a female-dominated profession and our culture devalues jobs that are predominantly done by women. I think these are important and valid complaints and we should talk about it as a society.

But it actually undermines the point when you argue that this happens to teachers but somehow not to people in other professions because of stuff like "well we have limited promotional potential" or "often I'm expected to buy my own supplies." Yes, these things are true of many middle class jobs. We live in a super capitalist country and there are structural barriers to advancement in many fields, including stuff like requiring lots of extra education or credentials in order to move into management, or requiring people to fund a lot of their work-related supply costs. These are broad complaints that can apply to many people in many industries, and it's myopic to act like these are unique to teachers.

I would be curious to know how many teachers know what the parents of the kids in their classes do for a living and what the biggest challenges of those jobs are. Or how much they pay. I understand why resentment might exist at public schools in wealthy districts where I'm sure many of the parents are high paid professionals or SAHPs married to high paid professionals. But at schools where most parents are in the same general middle class band as teachers, I don't get the resentment or antagonism. We're kind of in it together, even if some of the details of our lives or our jobs are different.

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Anonymous wrote:My kid’s teachers make more money than I do and get better benefits. I very much appreciate them, am always polite, do not try to take their time or make their lives harder. But this idea that I somehow inadequately appreciate teachers is weird to me. Or the idea that I owe them lots of gift cards or gifts. I always make a point of sending thank you cards and, if it is in budget, a target gift card. Beyond that I really don’t think anything else should be expected of me as a parent.

Just how appreciative do I need to be? I am honestly not that appreciated in my job.

+10

Teacher here, who posted above about AP workloads. I don’t need appreciation. I don’t expect it at holidays or at the end of the year. I do appreciate thank you letters when I write college recommendations, but I know not to expect them since they come about 2-5% of the time.

I’d be happy if I can just get some respect. That might look like not calling my job “easy” and telling me to appreciate my summers off. Those 4-5 weeks aren’t much of a trade-off for the grueling 60-70 hour weeks throughout the year.

Nobody does that. No one.

oh please-they do!!!

But dii ok you get that the jerks who say teachers jobs are easy or “enjoy your summers off” also put other people down for their jobs. I work in marketing, I make 85k a year, I work long hours for some people who are very full of themselves (lawyers). They all think my job is super easy and that anyone can do it, in part because they don’t understand that like 70% of my job is trying to make them happy which is impossible. I’ve heard any manner of snide comments from not just people I meet but people I actually work with about how my job is easy or is just sitting around resizing photos or something. I also do several client retreats a year and people act like this is done kind of relaxing vacation for me (“enjoy your vacation”) because they don’t understand that while the lawyers are out to dinner with clients I’m sitting in my hotel room until 1am collating handouts and finalizing the power point the partners will claim credit for in the morning. And while I’m on these “trips” my DH is pulling double duty at home and I miss my kids.

Is my job as important or necessary as a teacher’s? No, I realize that. But I work very hard, am not particularly well compensated, get treated not great by a bunch of people who make WAY more than me (and more even than the go consultants who do make dumb curriculum decisions that impact teachers) and regularly feel pretty underappreciated.

But no one ever asks “Why does no one acknowledge how overworked marketing professionals are?” And I wouldn’t ask that either, it’s silly. I chose this dumb profession and this dumb job, and while I fantasize about doing something else, the money isn’t horrible for someone with a BA and I get a good employee match on my 401k.

Work is work. Teachers are not uniquely beleaguered and they are NOT underappreciated. I appreciate my kids teachers everyday. Of course there are people who are going to put it down— the world is full of arrogant jerks who don’t think anyone making less than 500k/yr (and especially anyone in a female-dominated profession) is worthwhile. Welcome to the club.

There is a big difference between you and a teacher - you can move up, get more responsibility, get more prestige. Teachers can't - you live at the bottom of the barrel in the educational system, and it never gets any better no matter how hard you work or how good you get. I'm not suggesting teachers need more appreciation or even more money - they don't, actually. What they need is for people to recognize that the problem with the teacher shortage is not that we need we need better working conditions. We need respect from administration, we need some voice in the system. I found my experience as a teacher demeaning and generally bad for my self-esteem. I left for a job with one half the pay and was much happier.

Teachers can become principals, administrators, etc. they are definitely not stuck.

No, this is a misconception. First, administrator and principal is the same thing, but it's not a promotion from teaching. One has to get a whole new graduate degree. After getting the degree, a teacher can apply for Assistant Principal positions. If they get one, then they have to spend at least 5 years as AP before applying for a principal job. A lot of people never make it to principal. It's definitely not about being a good teacher, that's for sure, and not something you can get moved up to just by working hard and being good at your job.

Ok but I’m the marketing pro from earlier and do you understand the same career trajectory is also true for me? I work at a law firm. I’m never going to become a partner here. In theory I could become like a CMO, but I’d almost certainly have to get a masters, and in my experience many of the CMOs also have JDs. I could go work in a different industry but I’d lose the value if all my industry knowledge that way. There are lateral moves I can make, into business development maybe, but these don’t come with huge pay increases. There are firms that pay fir my role or where I could move into a slightly more senior position, but realistically the most I’m going to make in my career is around 140k, and that’s with a lot of seniority and probably towards the end of my career. A colleague of mine jokes that eventually they just keep changing your title but you never get raises beyond COLA and it’s not untrue.

I think the person upthread who said some teachers overestimate the pay and other rewards in professional jobs requiring a BA, outside of teaching, was right. Most people I know who make more that 150k and work reasonable hours have graduate degrees. It’s really not that common. I also know lots of people who make this much but still work very long hours.

I see what us challenging about being a teacher and I don’t know if I could do it. Being on your feet all day, the lack of breaks, being responsible for that many kids at once, having so much of your curriculum dictated by others, the way teachers are evaluated. I get it— it’s a hard job and as I said, I really appreciate what teachers do. I also have done actual sense of the job, since I have kids in school, plus I once was a kid in school.

I guarantee you none of my kid’s teachers have any clue what my job is or what is hard about it or how I am treated. I’m sure it looks cushy from the outside because I do get to WFH sometimes (though that is definitely a new phenomenon since Covid and is very curtailed since return to office). My point is: it’s not. I’m not making 150k to just sit around and have two meetings and write 10 emails a day. I don’t get treated great by my mosses and I don’t feel appreciated by society at all.

And I think my experience is pretty average for parents. There are some who have it worse and some who have it better. I don’t think teachers are uniquely underappreciated or disrespected, and in some ways you are much more appreciated and respected than many of the parents of the kids you teach.

DP; you just seem to really hate your job and want to make this thread about you

That's the point though. This thread is actually just about teachers who hate their jobs and want to complain about them, but in the guise of "parents don't appreciate us enough." Like there are teachers on this thread who are acting like teaching is the WORST POSSIBLE JOB when it very clearly is not.

This thread is just a laundry list of things teachers find annoying about their jobs and some are valid and some less so. I don't get what the point is, really.

Take a look at the entirety of this thread. Teachers are trying to illustrate what the job is like, and posters simply respond with either “it’s actually an easy job” or “others have it harder.” Few posters have said “we see what you’re saying and get it.”

You want solidarity? Then accept that we can have it hard, too. That’s it.

As for complaining, I have posted on this thread several times and not once have I complained. As for “worst job possible” (I refuse to use your caps), nobody has said that. Nobody. Let’s not exaggerate. Teachers HAVE tried to get people to understand exactly how hard it is, a point many have refused to accept.

OK, but why? Why do teachers feel a unique need for the rest of the world to validate that their job is hard? I believe you. I'm sure it is hard. So what? Lots of jobs are hard. (For example, there is no amount of money in the world that could get me to be a hospital nurse! I can't even imagine how challenging that job is.)

I do what I can - I send in supplies and have even spoken at school board meetings in support of smaller class sizes and better teacher pay. I contribute to the class gift and volunteer at the book fair and participated in all the fundraisers.
When there is something teachers ask the public to do to improve public education most people I know are happy to do it.
When teachers just complain about how hard their job is, it's just.... confusing. And it also concerns me that these are the people who I hope are teaching my kid how to have perseverance and put in hard work and do their best all the time.

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Anonymous wrote:I’m a former teacher. My perspective is 1) teachers underestimate how overworked everyone else is. They think they’re uniquely working unpaid overtime when just about anyone in a salaried role is feeling the same pressure, especially if they want to be regarded as good as their job. Same as teachers. 2) A ton of this, teachers bring on themselves. Take decorating rooms. No one is making them do that. You choose to go blow $200 at Michaels and then spend a weekend taping kitschy crap to the walls.

Thank you for this. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone in this forum recognize this reality for other salaried workers, especially non-federal government employees. We earn low wages compared to the private sector and routinely work hours for which we are not compensated.

Right. Teachers, in my experience, tend to compare themselves to more cushy public sector jobs instead of the private sector with a similar education level. There is no pot of gold for someone with a BA (or easy masters plus BA). That said, I think the non teaching public can’t understand how exhausting instruction can be. I find the public speaking aspect so draining that in many ways my next career in biglaw was less exhausting despite being many more hours.

That's a fair point, as it the issue of not being able to go to the bathroom.

As to "cushy public sector jobs" I'm not sure there are any anymore. Outside of the federal government, employees in state and local employment routinely work more than 50-60 hours per week for low pay doing important work. Ask anyone working in public health these last three years about being overworked and underpaid. Teachers seem to not understand that.

Skip the fed-bashing, okay? Feds jobs just like the other public sector jobs. A mixed bag -- some slacker/low requirement and many working just like those ones that you describe above. Teachers seem not to understand that they're not the only ones not respected and under pressure to do more with less.

Truly. I have teacher friends that are appalled at the lack of work and effort by some of their teacher colleagues. Every profession has those people who can somehow get by with doing very little.

I have fed friends who work 60+ hours a week and can make 2.5x more in the private sector, but that 60+ hours a weeks is a "better work-life balance."

Honestly, this is me (fed lawyer). The last week I've been up until 1am every night as I have a big deadline looming next week. But it would be worse in the private sector!

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Teachers are really overworked! I said it OP. A lot of people in other jobs are overworked too. But teaching is an incredibly important job and I wish you were better compensated for what you do.

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I volunteer in my kids classroom once a week. I think we ask much more of teachers than historically, and overcrowd the classrooms. Teachers should have an aide that helps with admin stuff like grade entry for every single assignment in PowerSchool that we now require them to do, or fielding patent emails about why larlo hasn’t gotten their spirit prize this week. If we are going to cram 28 kids into a classroom they need more admin support.

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Anonymous wrote:I volunteer in my kids classroom once a week. I think we ask much more of teachers than historically, and overcrowd the classrooms. Teachers should have an aide that helps with admin stuff like grade entry for every single assignment in PowerSchool that we now require them to do, or fielding patent emails about why larlo hasn’t gotten their spirit prize this week. If we are going to cram 28 kids into a classroom they need more admin support.

I am definitely in favor of smaller classrooms and more classroom support. Hear hear.

But I'd also like to see us actually fix some of the dumb expectations put on teachers that necessitate needing to delegate some of it to an aide. For example, the idea that an elementary school teacher (presuming elementary because you volunteer in the classroom) needs to enter individual grades for every "assignment" is bonkers. You know that's not being done for the benefit of the teacher, the kid, or the kid's parents. Grades in elementary school don't matter and what those three groups care about is that the child is actually acquiring necessary foundational skills for later in their education.

Nope, that was a decision made at the administrative level, likely to satisfy some kind of "Moneyball"-esque type statistics around learning in the school system. You know who loves data like that? Politicians and consultants. Politicians because they can manipulate the data to argue in favor of electing them, and consultants because they can charge you to analyze it. A third grader does not need an entered grade on every freaking thing they do. It's dumb. It's happening because people are meddling in the classroom who shouldn't be. We should kick them out.

And the stuff about parent emails -- schools need clear policies about when and how to contact teachers, and what constitutes an appropriate contact. And teacher's should honestly be empowered to just ignore stuff like that too.

Again, I'm not saying this in lieu of smaller classrooms or more aides -- I'd love that. I'd just like it because it's a better environment for everyone, not because I want the aide to spend the day doing dumb busywork admin and responding to entitled parents. Let's address the busywork and the entitled parents as the policy problems they are and let teachers teach the kids.

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Anonymous wrote:So now you want teachers to have even less education. Get an AA degree like the other trades?

I don’t think that’s a bad idea, at least for the younger ages. Were you being sarcastic?

You mean like when they learn to read? Develop math and reasoning skills? When some of the first signs of learning disabilities and processing disorders are apparent?

We invest so little in the first 5 to 10 years of a kid's life as a country that it's despicable.

In those other countries that DCUM aspire to be like with well paid and educated teachers and kids starting formal school at 7 (like Finland for example), the kids all start school being fluent readers. Their parents teach them at home in the early years. And parents could have even less than AA degrees. They care about their kids though and make sure to teach them to read and whatever else is expected before school starts.

The despicable thing in the US is how bad the parenting is and how little people care about their own kids.

Do you know any Finnish people? I do, and none of them independently taught their kids to read. Their kids attended high quality, subsidized daycares where reading basics are incorporated into the mostly play-based curriculum, and parents supported at home by reading to their kids and reinforcing reading concepts. All the Finnish families I know are dual income and rely heavily on the substantial support they and their children receive before their kids start school. This includes: extensive parental leave for both parents, which allows one parent or the other to be home with babies during the first year of life, subsidized childcare, excellent post natal care for babies and mothers including home visits to make sure everyone has what the need, monthly stipends for each child to cover costs like clothes and food, which Finnish families receive regardless of income.

Parents in Finland do not care more about their kids than American parents. They receive support from the government that allows them to channel their energy into quality time with kids and supporting them emotionally, socially, and yes, sometimes academically. In the US where parents are expected to return to work almost immediately after their kids are born, find quality childcare in a system that is not designed to provide it (and definitely not affordable), absorb the costs of children with no state support, and navigate a healthcare system where standards of care are based on your income and location and there are few guaranteed benefits.

Honestly, teachers in Finland could make considerably less than in the US and have much higher quality of life because they don’t have to spend all their income on procuring basic social services like healthcare or childcare, like we do in the US.

The bolded part I think is key. In the US, schools (especially in lower-income areas) have defaulted to be the social services provider to kids (and their families, to a lesser extent). In a place like Finland, where a robust publicly funded social services safety net exists, kids don't come to school hungry or without access to healthcare. A teacher in Finland can focus on what their job actually is, rather than having to deal with issues that our teachers need to cover because of our spotty social safety net.