The only solution is to automate quiz grades, grade stuff very quickly for completion (or spot check) and I grade major assessments quickly. I can do a paper in 5 minutes. It also helps to work in a private school with a lighter student load.
I work about 40 hours, sometimes a bit more, sometimes just 35. The pressure to do more is always there but I’ve quiet quit on the admin lol. Kids and parents are happy with my classes and I teach AP (with great scores).
Anonymous wrote:I am floored by teachers who think late grading is defensible. It's a fundamental requirement of the job.
You haven't been paying attention. There are now 130% fundamental requirements of the job. If a person is only willing to give 110-120% of their contracted time to the job, what gives? It's easier to take a pass on things like entering grades into the on-line portal than to skip mandatory meetings, skip state mandated testing requirements, skip state and federal disability management (like meetings for IEPs, 504s), and so on.
There are only so many hours in a week and at a certain point, teachers give up. I know many who work 60 hour work weeks and have to stop so that they can take care of their own families or their own health. I know one teacher who had a chronic health issue, went to the ER, was admitted on a Friday night. On Sunday after getting discharged, instead of going home to rest as she was instructed, she drove to school so that she could work on lesson plans for Monday. She was given a form from the hospital that said she was excused from work for 3 days to recover, but she ignored it because there was no sub lined up and no sub available for Monday. So she drove to school, did her lesson plans and caught up on state mandated training that had to be completed by Monday and finally late at night Sunday, drove home to eat a quick microwave dinner and collapse into bed for 6 hours so that she could get up and get to school on time.
So, what parts of state and district mandated work do you want the teacher to give up to be able to spend 1 hour entering grades into Canvas for parents to see? My friend graded things and handed the papers back to the kids, but she just didn't enter the results into Canvas.
She sounds like an idiot without a backbone to be honest. If they can’t find a sub, that’s the school’s problem. The teacher is not expected to come in if no sub picks up the job. That has never been the case. Also, it’s very possible they could have found someone the next am. If not, they will often divide the kids up and send them to different rooms for the day. How would she know on Sunday night whether or not the job would or wouldn’t be filled come Monday AM? Furthermore, teachers are told to have emergency sub plans on hand that any idiot can follow. There was no need for her to actually go to the school to make the lesson plans if she already had emergency plans created like she was supposed to. I guess she didn’t have them created. And seriously, plans can be emailed to a colleague from home anyway. And why was she waiting until the last possible weekend to complete a state mandated training? I’m sure she could have gotten an extension given her visit to the ER. This so called teacher is trying to be a martyr. Nobody forced her to come in.
To be honest this whole story sounds made up. Schools are not even open on Sundays.
It's not made up. She has been a friend of mine for over 20 years and she was teaching in MCPS when I met her (1998). She is devoted to her students and their well-being. The school is closed, but there are teachers will access to the buildings outside of school hours; she has access to her school. The reason she went in last Spring was that several of her coworkers had tested positive for Covid. There were 3+ teachers (she only mentioned 3, so not sure if there were more) that were out the week prior. There were NO substitutes available that week, so several teachers were doubling up. She knew several classes that had 40 children in them because of missing teachers with no subs available and no staff to fill in. Since the Covid+ teachers were still going to be out on Monday (at the time, they had a 10 day isolation policy), she knew that there would be no subs. And why didn't she have lesson plans? Because like the other teacher, she had been working 60 hour weeks just keeping up with the current lesson plans and the grading and the other mandatory work. Like the other teacher, she had 30 hours of work for 3.5 hours of planning each week for the several weeks prior. She had emergency lesson plans for early in the school year, but when 3rd quarter rolled around, they were no longer applicable and she had never had enough time to create new ones for the 3rd quarter. You say "I'm sure she could have gotten an extension to given her visit to the ER." but MCPS said otherwise.
So, based on your responses, you have never worked in the public sector or schools and you make assumptions about what other people can do in their jobs based on your white collar professional jobs where there is a lot more leniency given and applied. And you hold teachers to a different double standard over what they should do and make assumptions about what they are required to do. You are one of the toxic parents that are chasing teachers out of the profession.
Sweetie, I’m a retired FCPS teacher. I most definitely know what I’m talking about. I’ve had to write plans while sick many times. I never went into the school to do that. Emergency sub plans are applicable for the whole year. It was up to her to have those ready to go. Emergency sub plans include things like writing prompts, mindless packets of busy work or review and periods of time in the day for “reading silently.” They don’t expire just because it’s the “3rd quarter.” They really aren’t hard. And there is no need to go into the actual school to make lesson plans. Everything is digital now. You can write them up at home and email them to someone. As someone who’s taught 20 years, you’d think she would know how to do his stuff in her sleep. Things are recycled every year.
And why did she wait until the last possible weekend to complete her training?
Different poster (not the one with the anecdote) here.
Teachers who are condescending and rude to their fellow teachers really are among the worst humans. This anecdote was about a teacher who cared and felt trapped. She was sick and STILL wanted to leave meaningful plans. You say that sub plans should be "mindless packets of busy work." Parents on this thread, the very ones who are screaming that teachers should work all day on Sundays, would NOT be satisfied with your "mindless packets." I'm a teacher who doesn't give "mindless packets." Instead, I leave sub plans that are relevant to recent lessons and reinforce what is currently being taught. Yes, that takes extra work. Being a good teacher takes a TON of extra work. That anecdote shows the lengths one teacher felt she had to go to perform her job properly. For you to come in with your "recycled" plans that can be regurgitated "in... sleep" is not helpful.
- A sick teacher on leave today STILL working 8-10 hours
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
You went into the field knowing the salaries. That's not our fault.
(Though I agree you should be paid more).
You sound ignorant and your "I agree you should get paid more" doesn't help the overall ignorance.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
You went into the field knowing the salaries. That's not our fault.
(Though I agree you should be paid more).
Teachers knew the salary scale when they started, but they probably didn’t know that they are expected to work nights and weekends. Several PPs ago argued that teachers should shut up and do the extra work because that’s what is expected of professionals, and then she listed those fields as a comparison. The post above is simply arguing that you can’t hold teachers down with considerably less pay and no professional respect while simultaneously demanding they hold 60+ hour weeks like people in those listed fields.
Something has to give. Right now, teachers are walking away from the job. They have better options. Eventually, working conditions and pay will have to improve to get these teachers back.
Then they should go. And I mean that seriously. Not because I -want- them too. That's how change is affected.
But, to be clear, the arguments being made on this thread are not helping or persuasive to a lot of people. We all are expected to work when we are expected to work. And the fact is, teachers have important jobs: they are teaching our kids, our future citizens. So just saying "I'm not going to do it." or "I'm not taking the time to do that", which giving timely reports/feedback is, is not doing that. It's also being said that it's up to parents to a) fill the gaps in teaching, b) advocate for YOUR jobs, all the while c) handling our own jobs and personal lives. You need better talking points or arguments or strategy. These are not going to fly with a lot of parents who are drowning in their own personal situations. And that includes the non-crazy non-Youngkin supporter types.
Well they are going, aren't they? The market is speaking and yet people still need additional information to be persuaded, which is interesting since I thought the majority of this area had at least a bachelor's degree and therefore basic economics classes...
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
You went into the field knowing the salaries. That's not our fault.
(Though I agree you should be paid more).
Teachers knew the salary scale when they started, but they probably didn’t know that they are expected to work nights and weekends. Several PPs ago argued that teachers should shut up and do the extra work because that’s what is expected of professionals, and then she listed those fields as a comparison. The post above is simply arguing that you can’t hold teachers down with considerably less pay and no professional respect while simultaneously demanding they hold 60+ hour weeks like people in those listed fields.
Something has to give. Right now, teachers are walking away from the job. They have better options. Eventually, working conditions and pay will have to improve to get these teachers back.
Then they should go. And I mean that seriously. Not because I -want- them too. That's how change is affected.
But, to be clear, the arguments being made on this thread are not helping or persuasive to a lot of people. We all are expected to work when we are expected to work. And the fact is, teachers have important jobs: they are teaching our kids, our future citizens. So just saying "I'm not going to do it." or "I'm not taking the time to do that", which giving timely reports/feedback is, is not doing that. It's also being said that it's up to parents to a) fill the gaps in teaching, b) advocate for YOUR jobs, all the while c) handling our own jobs and personal lives. You need better talking points or arguments or strategy. These are not going to fly with a lot of parents who are drowning in their own personal situations. And that includes the non-crazy non-Youngkin supporter types.
This argument is going in circles. If you think teachers are as irresponsible and uncaring as this thread is trying to make them out to be.....GO PRIVATE. Teachers are just like you we are balancing jobs and our own children and lives. So we do what we can with the hours we have in our work day. I am at school from 8-5 and it still does not all get done-my day is packed with unnecessary tasks and meetings. At 5 I go home and take care of my own family and personal life. WE DO NOT work around the clock and you are NOT our boss....PERIOD!
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
You went into the field knowing the salaries. That's not our fault.
(Though I agree you should be paid more).
Teachers knew the salary scale when they started, but they probably didn’t know that they are expected to work nights and weekends. Several PPs ago argued that teachers should shut up and do the extra work because that’s what is expected of professionals, and then she listed those fields as a comparison. The post above is simply arguing that you can’t hold teachers down with considerably less pay and no professional respect while simultaneously demanding they hold 60+ hour weeks like people in those listed fields.
Something has to give. Right now, teachers are walking away from the job. They have better options. Eventually, working conditions and pay will have to improve to get these teachers back.
Then they should go. And I mean that seriously. Not because I -want- them too. That's how change is affected.
But, to be clear, the arguments being made on this thread are not helping or persuasive to a lot of people. We all are expected to work when we are expected to work. And the fact is, teachers have important jobs: they are teaching our kids, our future citizens. So just saying "I'm not going to do it." or "I'm not taking the time to do that", which giving timely reports/feedback is, is not doing that. It's also being said that it's up to parents to a) fill the gaps in teaching, b) advocate for YOUR jobs, all the while c) handling our own jobs and personal lives. You need better talking points or arguments or strategy. These are not going to fly with a lot of parents who are drowning in their own personal situations. And that includes the non-crazy non-Youngkin supporter types.
This argument is going in circles. If you think teachers are as irresponsible and uncaring as this thread is trying to make them out to be.....GO PRIVATE. Teachers are just like you we are balancing jobs and our own children and lives. So we do what we can with the hours we have in our work day. I am at school from 8-5 and it still does not all get done-my day is packed with unnecessary tasks and meetings. At 5 I go home and take care of my own family and personal life. WE DO NOT work around the clock and you are NOT our boss....PERIOD!
+1 and also wanted to visit this PP
"I don't understand It's also being said that it's up to parents to a) fill the gaps in teaching, b) advocate for YOUR jobs, all the while c) handling our own jobs and personal lives."
You can skip point B bc I don't really care whether or not you advocate for me, I'll do my job either way. But yes, A and C are part of your responsibility as parents. Of course you will have gaps to fill in your child's education, they are in school 7.5 - 8 hrs per day. The rest is up to families as it has been since the beginning of time.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
You went into the field knowing the salaries. That's not our fault.
(Though I agree you should be paid more).
Teachers knew the salary scale when they started, but they probably didn’t know that they are expected to work nights and weekends. Several PPs ago argued that teachers should shut up and do the extra work because that’s what is expected of professionals, and then she listed those fields as a comparison. The post above is simply arguing that you can’t hold teachers down with considerably less pay and no professional respect while simultaneously demanding they hold 60+ hour weeks like people in those listed fields.
Something has to give. Right now, teachers are walking away from the job. They have better options. Eventually, working conditions and pay will have to improve to get these teachers back.
Correct - we do see the salary scale when we accept the job, however, my salary has been frozen on the same step extremely frequently. So, what is initially a low salary remains low if you happen to experience this. Also - teaching isn't a job where you can gain promotions and higher pay (unless you want to do ANOTHER master's degree and go into admin), so either the initial salary has to increase or the school board should be bound to adhere to the salary step scale.
Many people are in this same boat across many professions. These are systematic failings.
What should we do about that to fix this for you? SInce that seems to be what you're asking us to do?
DP: (Parent, not a teacher) A key difference is that many professions don't have all the parents thinking they are your boss (if they are jerks) or just feeling stressed because their children's well-being and development depends on the teacher's well-being. Most jobs with systemic failings don't involve a group of people giving that which is most precious to them to a person to nurture and grow for most days of the week--and being a person with that responsibility knowing that your actions have an impact on each child's lifelong well-being.
People go into teaching because they care about children and they are finding that they are not able to do their jobs well because of the demands which add psychological stress on to it. We should all be invested in helping teachers do their most central work well, not scoring points about which profession is harder or whatever. We might (or might not) 'win' any particular battle of getting a stressed teacher to get our kids grades in faster or whatever we're insisting on, but at the expense of what matters most.
These are all valid and I'm not unsympathetic. But what you are asking of parent is not reasonable.
I'm so glad that I only have a couple more years of public school left . . .
I'm sorry that it isn't reasonable, welcome to our lives as teachers
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
You went into the field knowing the salaries. That's not our fault.
(Though I agree you should be paid more).
Teachers knew the salary scale when they started, but they probably didn’t know that they are expected to work nights and weekends. Several PPs ago argued that teachers should shut up and do the extra work because that’s what is expected of professionals, and then she listed those fields as a comparison. The post above is simply arguing that you can’t hold teachers down with considerably less pay and no professional respect while simultaneously demanding they hold 60+ hour weeks like people in those listed fields.
Something has to give. Right now, teachers are walking away from the job. They have better options. Eventually, working conditions and pay will have to improve to get these teachers back.
Then they should go. And I mean that seriously. Not because I -want- them too. That's how change is affected.
But, to be clear, the arguments being made on this thread are not helping or persuasive to a lot of people. We all are expected to work when we are expected to work. And the fact is, teachers have important jobs: they are teaching our kids, our future citizens. So just saying "I'm not going to do it." or "I'm not taking the time to do that", which giving timely reports/feedback is, is not doing that. It's also being said that it's up to parents to a) fill the gaps in teaching, b) advocate for YOUR jobs, all the while c) handling our own jobs and personal lives. You need better talking points or arguments or strategy. These are not going to fly with a lot of parents who are drowning in their own personal situations. And that includes the non-crazy non-Youngkin supporter types.
This argument is going in circles. If you think teachers are as irresponsible and uncaring as this thread is trying to make them out to be.....GO PRIVATE. Teachers are just like you we are balancing jobs and our own children and lives. So we do what we can with the hours we have in our work day. I am at school from 8-5 and it still does not all get done-my day is packed with unnecessary tasks and meetings. At 5 I go home and take care of my own family and personal life. WE DO NOT work around the clock and you are NOT our boss....PERIOD!
+1 and also wanted to visit this PP
"I don't understand It's also being said that it's up to parents to a) fill the gaps in teaching, b) advocate for YOUR jobs, all the while c) handling our own jobs and personal lives."
You can skip point B bc I don't really care whether or not you advocate for me, I'll do my job either way. But yes, A and C are part of your responsibility as parents. Of course you will have gaps to fill in your child's education, they are in school 7.5 - 8 hrs per day. The rest is up to families as it has been since the beginning of time.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
You blowhard. You are SO VERY much less important than you think you are.
Ok, please tell me why it wouldn't be waste fraud or abuse, and why it would be appropriate for an admin to ignore it.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
Well this is just incorrect information. We have contracted work hours. Any work we do after hours is eligible for admin premium (DCPS)
-same admin here, and I’ve got some buy one get one coupons for appletinis if you wanna swing by my office
Congrats that you get admin premium time in DCPS, but that has nothing to do with the fact pattern presented.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
Thats nice, other professionals don't get that level of time off to complete their continuing/professional education unless they are on a sabbatical of some sort which is why compensation is structured the way it is for each profession.
Grading should be timely with no excuses. Salaried professionals are compensated the way they are entirely because they don't work a 40 hour week.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
Thats nice, other professionals don't get that level of time off to complete their continuing/professional education unless they are on a sabbatical of some sort which is why compensation is structured the way it is for each profession.
Grading should be timely with no excuses. Salaried professionals are compensated the way they are entirely because they don't work a 40 hour week.
Well maybe teachers should grade during the class time and then your children can watch an educational video. Options options....something else for you to shout about!!
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
Thats nice, other professionals don't get that level of time off to complete their continuing/professional education unless they are on a sabbatical of some sort which is why compensation is structured the way it is for each profession.
Grading should be timely with no excuses. Salaried professionals are compensated the way they are entirely because they don't work a 40 hour week.
Well maybe teachers should grade during the class time and then your children can watch an educational video. Options options....something else for you to shout about!!
Bingo! PP who wants absolutely no excuses from teachers, this question is for you:
Are you comfortable with me showing videos and giving tons of individual reading time in class? If so, you can have your timely feedback. If you want me to provide meaningful, engaging lessons that help your child love the process of learning, then you will need to wait for the feedback. I’ll happily go either way. Your choice.
What I won’t do is give up my entire weekends. I have my own family and I have my own responsibilities. They deserve my time, too.
So let me know what works best! I’ll get right on it.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
Thats nice, other professionals don't get that level of time off to complete their continuing/professional education unless they are on a sabbatical of some sort which is why compensation is structured the way it is for each profession.
Grading should be timely with no excuses. Salaried professionals are compensated the way they are entirely because they don't work a 40 hour week.
Wrong again. Are those professions required to accumulate credits and degrees like teachers are? Do their places of employment pay for them if they do? I haven’t successfully gotten reimbursed for any class my entire career. I don’t see how you are using continuing education as a valid excuse for keeping teacher pay low. Strange argument.
Anonymous wrote:I used to think that MCPS parents were the worst, but I see that I just haven't been paying enough attention to FCPS parents. This thread is full of some of the most entitled, arrogant parents I've seen in a long time. And you wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and that some of you are complaining about having subs, long-term subs and random school staff babysitting your children and not teaching them. Well, congratulations, you've shown that your children are paying the price for your arrogance and entitlement. Don't be surprised if more teachers leave and some leave mid-year from some of you and your children end up with more untrained subs and school staff babysitting your children instead of teaching them.
Only an arrogant and entitled person would view parents wanting teachers to do their job and GRADE THE KIDS' WORK in a timely manner is arrogant or entitled. LOL.
You are only contributing to the problem. The problem right now is that the school administration and school board have pushed so many administrative tasks onto the teachers that they have less time per child. In addition, as teachers leave the profession, the class sizes are rising, which again decreases time per child. The teachers are overwhelmed. Adding in parent teacher meetings will only exacerbate the problem by taking more and more time away from the teacher's ability to address anything for the bulk of children.
Your entire attitude will make the problem worse. Parents like you are one of the primary reasons that teachers are leaving the profession. Will you be happy if you decide to browbeat and harass the teacher and they decide to leave the profession and you get a long-term or short-term sub with no teaching credentials, no curriculum and no lesson plans to just make up busy work for your child for an entire quarter while they try to find someone to replace the teacher you helped to chase out? Will you be happy if because of the harassment, that your child is no longer given homework at all just to allow the teacher to cut back to a 10 hour work day and a 55 hour work week?
Parents should be advocating with the school board to reduce administrative overhead tasks from teachers. The teachers need to get many of those administrative tasks removed from their schedules so that they have more time in their schedules to address student issues. Harassing and browbeating teachers is not going to improve your child's education. But getting teacher's away from administrative tasks and back to teaching will. Devote that aggression and energy into helping to improve teacher work conditions and you'll find it will have a bigger effect on improving your child's education than just piling on to the overwhelming schedule and tasks of your child's teacher.
Parents like me have been your biggest supporter over the last 2 years- so your assumption made me laugh out loud just now. But, parents like me also expect that if I have a legitimate question and concern with my child's learning, and how DC is getting feedback, you will hear about it. If "parents like me" piss you off for doing that (and to be clear, I have not not had to do this thus far but would not hesitate) so be it.
Your admin burdens are not my problem. I will support you and all teachers to the maximum until you stop doing your job to effectively teach my kid. I don't care what you think about me, whether I"m a problem, etc.
Just to clarify, I am not a teacher nor have I ever been a teacher. I am a parent that gets along well with my children's teachers and I am as supportive as possible wherever and however I can be. I do not DEMAND actions from my children's teachers, but I highlight issues and ask them to help me solve them. I get answers because I act nicely and ask rather than demand. And I am also more patient. You seem to expect answers quickly and your imperious tone is very abrasive. But go ahead, say you are a big supporter while treating them like a servant.
Yes....kindness goes a long way. I'm not a servant and parents who behave that way will quickly know I am not their servant. Parents with this attitude are the ones who have kids who think they are the only one in my class....meanwhile I have 35 others in each class. It's an entitled attitude. To the parents who respect teachers and what they do thank you-we know who you are!
And just to clarify, if you can read, I have not NEEDED to do this with my kids' teachers yet. I am responding to the teacher or whoever it was that seemed to think they had no obligation to meet with parents, timely grade and provide feedback, and thinks that would fly with a lot of parents (including me). Yes, I do expect answers and in a timely manner - that is not unreasonable. My abrasive tone is on here and, so far, has not been needed with any teacher in FCPS. It is reserved her for the folks like you that seem to be making excuses for those that cannot seem to do their job. And think that is ok. It's not and I don't care what you think of my tone.
For two years, teachers have told parents that they are our "partners" in education and it was our job to get our kids through COVID - and I agree. And I did that. But being a "partner" requires teachers to do their part and no chance I'd accept anything less than timely grading and feedback, voluntarily if I can get it but with more involvement from admin if that wasn't working. And yes, we are "entitled" to that.
I also don't need your validation of whether or not I am a supporter of teachers or not. I know the truth and what I have supported and advocated for and for whom in the last few years. I can be both a supporter of teachers while advocating for my child. Sorry you don't get that but that matters not even a little to me.
Wrong. And many teachers have competent admin who will laugh off your entitlement when you “escalate” to them. Oh well.
That's what numbers are for.
Bring 20 parents with you and they can't laugh it off.
admin here. I’d laugh and provide you my superiors contact info. As well as the best places around my school for happy hour that can accommodate a group of 20
Laughing off the concerns of 20 parents with a flippant response? That is entirely unprofessional and entirely unfit for a public servant.
This is why parents no longer have respect for educators.
Can you imagine the media response to that one?
Fcps teachers refuse to grade timely. left and right would go nuts over that story.
Might even work too because teachers can complain they're overworked and get responsibilites pulled back.
That is such a boring non-story that no media outlet would publish/cover it.
I'd say fraud, waste and abuse is a pretty big story.
Abuse of what? Teachers? I agree.
FCPS defines abuse as "injurious to FCPS or its interests; and (ii) excessive, deficient or improper when compared with the conduct that a prudent person would consider reasonable and necessary governmental practice in light of the facts and circumstances known at the time. Abuse also includes misuse of FCPS
resources, authority or position which results, or could be expected to result, in injury to the school division, including reputational injury, whether such misuse is for personal interests or not. Acts of fraud could result in a tangible or intangible benefit to others, or could cause injury to FCPS or its interests, or both. Waste also includes
incurring unnecessary costs as a result of inefficient or ineffective practices, systems, or controls.
If you are a teacher or administrator, I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the terms. I would assume that you would receive training on it, and would recognize that you are required by FCPS policy to immediately report it to your supervisor.
We have a scenario where teachers are failing to perform their assigned functions, and are receiving compensation. Per the FCPS definitions this corresponds to waste, fraud and abuse.
Then an administrator, when informed by a large number of parents that such an incident has occurred, refuses to report to their supervisor, as required, and instead dismisses the concern of 20 parents by telling them to meet at a restaurant.
If you don't see this as a problem with regards to being an injury to the school division, including reputational injury, along with misuse of resources, incurring unnecessary costs and financial gains to public employees for not completing tasks and don't think that the media would find it newsworthy, then don't be surprised in what results should parents push the issue.
Let's take a look at this "injury" and "abuse" and "fraud," especially your allegation that employees are not "completing tasks."
I'm a high school teacher. I get 42 minutes a day to complete ALL of my work. That's 3.5 hours a week to do all of my planning and grading. Let's say I assign an essay to my 120 students. It will take me 10 minutes an essay to provide thorough feedback, which equals 20 hours of grading for that assignment alone. I'm supposed to give two "meaningful" assignments a week. Let's say the other assignment takes only 2 minutes to grade. Even so, that's an additional 4 hours of grading. I now have 24 hours of grading to complete that week and 3.5 hours during my work week to do it in. I also have to plan all of my lessons, which have to be updated every year. Assume that takes me an additonal 4 hours a week. I have to respond to emails, update data in student records, correspond with SPED about IEPs and 504s, complete mandatory trainings, etc. Assume that's another 5 hours of work a week. I now have 33 hours of work to complete that week and 3.5 work hours to do it in.
So, when we want to talk about "injury" and "abuse," this is it. This is why teachers are leaving. For a parent to come here and argue that teachers are committing fraud? Wow. That parent has some serious nerve. To the parents who understand and are sympathetic, THANK YOU! I'll continue to do this with your support and I'll just ignore the unreasonable, entitled demands of others.
You're a professional, not an hourly worker. You don't have "only" 3.5 hours to get your job done. That means you work extra hours until the work is done in a timely manner. We wouldn't expect any less from any other profession, such as CPAs, MDs, lawyers and engineers, all of whom are expected to work until the job is done at the sacrifice of their free time for no extra compensation. If you don't see teaching as a professional career, then don't be expected to be treated with the respect that a profession is due by members of the community.
If I characterize your argument correctly, you are alleging your workload is unreasonable. I expect my kids work to be graded timely and to receive a high quality education from professional educators. If that means like a professional, you work a considerable number of "unpaid" hours, that comes with the job and should be a surprise to no one.
If you aren't completing the work in a timely manner, then yes by FCPS's own definitions you are indeed committing waste fraud and abuse.
I'm the PP. Here's where your argument falls apart. Yes, other salaried professions have to work over contracted hours. I am not buying that they regularly have this many extra hours to complete. I'm also guessing they have time AT WORK during which they can actually get work done. They are not delivering the equivalent of 30 hours of presentations a week, which is what a teacher does. Those 30 hours of presentations also EXHAUST us, leaving us with very little energy to do the 30+ hours of other tasks. I am also guessing they are much better compensated than a teacher is, which makes those extra hours more palatable.
I'm actually fascinated by how much you're doubling down. I tell you I have to work 65-70 hour weeks to be "timely," and your responses is, "so what?" Well, the "so what" is the fact teachers are leaving. You may think this is a reasonble workload, but we do not. Continue to make these entitled and delusional statements, and we will continue to leave the field. This does not help your child, which is what you initially claimed you are doing. If you want to help your child, then you need to help the teacher. Instead of all your "waste, fraud, and abuse" threats, try calling the district about unreasonable work demands that are keeping your teachers from getting things done in a timely manner. Work WITH us instead of being a thorn in our sides.
I'll add:
Median salaries -
CPAs $84K
MDs $198K
Lawyers $128K
Engineers: $88K
I actually went with the LOWEST median salary I could find for any of these fields in the OOH. There's a wide variety based on type (civil vs aerospace engineers, etc.). Let's also remember that all of the fields you mention have the potential for growth. A teacher doesn't have a ton of upward mobility in title or in salary.
By contrast?
Teachers $62K
Before you make some "but you get summers off" argument, know that I got 2 weeks this year. I spent my time taking classes for recertification and writing curriculum. I didn't get paid for either. As a salaried professional, ahem, I just did the work required of me over the summer for no pay.
It's great you compared teaching to those professional fields. I'll take my boost in pay now.
Thats nice, other professionals don't get that level of time off to complete their continuing/professional education unless they are on a sabbatical of some sort which is why compensation is structured the way it is for each profession.
Grading should be timely with no excuses. Salaried professionals are compensated the way they are entirely because they don't work a 40 hour week.
Well maybe teachers should grade during the class time and then your children can watch an educational video. Options options....something else for you to shout about!!
Bingo! PP who wants absolutely no excuses from teachers, this question is for you:
Are you comfortable with me showing videos and giving tons of individual reading time in class? If so, you can have your timely feedback. If you want me to provide meaningful, engaging lessons that help your child love the process of learning, then you will need to wait for the feedback. I’ll happily go either way. Your choice.
What I won’t do is give up my entire weekends. I have my own family and I have my own responsibilities. They deserve my time, too.
So let me know what works best! I’ll get right on it.
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