CES letters?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grizzled veteran of the MCPS Magnet Hunger Games here and people absolutely prep, even if they don't call it that. Sure, they may just call it tutoring, but when you are paying for access to above-grade-level instruction, that's prepping. Particularly when admission is based solely on a test that measures exposure to materials.

It's slightly less of an issue at the level of CES admissions than MS and HS magnet admissions, though.

The first day of my kids CES class a few years ago the teacher asked the students how many of you had practiced taking the CogAT ahead of time. He said 75% of the kids raised their hands.

1) That might depend on the CES
2) Practice, in at least some cases, might be a parent looking up a few sample questions so their kids know what the test will be like
3) I don't think kids practice for the MAP in the same way

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Our kid scored a 234 on Reading. Lexile level 1245L–1395LL. Our home is in bounds for a Title 1 school, but he's been attending a small private. Excellent student. He was not even selected for the CES lottery, and we are shocked. 99th percentile in reading, 98th in math. He's white, though it seems from this thread that's not a factor. We suppose and imagine the county assumes he's doing fine in private, but private doesn't equal accelerated. I wish I better understood the logic and wasn't simply guessing.

This seems wrong. It's really unethical and disgusting MCPS isn't releasing more information. It's possible they normed the private school kids against each other.
I know in Fairfax they did something in the way they admit that reduced the number of private school admissions to the TJ magnet really dramatically. I don't recall what but my guess is applicants from private are overwhelmingly white/Asian and higher income which is what they do not want.

Oh FFS. While public schools are set up to serve all children in their area, I don't think it rises to the level of discrimination to assume that kids already attending privates would most likely continue at those privates if not admitted to a PS special program, and to admit accordingly. And that's discrimination against private school students-- not white and Asian students. I mean, really.

I agree.

I'm not opposed to the policy in general. I just think the school districts should be transparent about it which I think Fairfax was but MCPS is not.
The other thing is that in Fairfax it was done with clear racial motivations according to text messages and other documents by the people making those policies so that's wrong.

I'm not clear on that at all. I know some people may want to believe that but I think it was done to give everyone a fair chance not just people willing to game the system by dumping tens of thousands into prep classees.

Am I that naive that I am shocked by this / don’t fully believe it? People prep their kids for MAP tests? We didn’t even know what they were when he entered school and aren’t even that aware of when they’re given. Often they’ll tell us like the day before. Is this a myth? Does anyone know a kid who was actually in MAP prep?

Also, I have to say I’m humbled by some of these scores. My son was 227 at 98th%ile. Prior to this last test he has been straight 99%ile in both math and reading. I have been very curious to know how many others like him are out there. It’s very helpful to know he will be in CES with kids who are just as or more capable as he is. While it’s reported as only a percentile difference, the difference between 227 and 240 seems significant to me!

I'm the parent of a child with 230+ MAP-R score and and a seat at CES. DC never prepped and has always scored in 99 percentile for both reading and math. I'm also skeptical that lots of kids are prepping and that "tens of thousands" are being spent doing it. If they were prepping in such large numbers, I'd expect to see a greater discrepancy in MAP scores between MCPS and national than the one point or so difference shown in the lastest report.

I also wonder how many kids there are out there like ours, and how many of them were accepted into CES.

I'm not that PP, but are you asking how many kids are consistently ~99th percentile across the board, didn't prep and did get into CES? My kid is one of those as well. I'm sure there are at least as many who are the same but just didn't get selected from the pool.

Maybe I'm naive or just live in a more laid back neighborhood, but it would be surprising to me if too many people prepped for the test with outside tutors, even in a very uptight area.

IDK, but I feel like it's actually hard to prep to that level, though there are surely some kids who 1) do get lots of outside tutoring as a supplement and 2) get 99s across the board. But that doesn't mean there's causation at work and they wouldn't have scored in the 99th regardless of prep. It's one thing to get your kid from an 85 to a 90 or maybe even 95 with test prep. I don't know how successful you'd be trying to get your kid from a 95 to a 99, or even 97 to 99, even if it should be just as easy or easier, in theory.

Maybe because 99th is actually broad, and if you have a kid consistently in 99th, they're probably very firmly in 99th, not just barely. And if they're actually more like 99.5 or 99.95 (you can see for some tests online, even if they don't share decimals in the report), well...

A 99.5 kid is a 1 in 200 kid and a 99.95 kid is a 1 in 2000 kid-- not just a 1 in 100 kid (99).

I just don't think you can prep to that in most cases, if you started out as a 1 in 20 kid (95).

Separately, I'd assume that about 2-3% in MCPS consistently score around 99th (nationally) across the board.

My youngest also wasn't selected they were 20-25 points over the 99th%. At this age I wouldn't call what they do prep per see, but they are an avid reader and we enjoy solving math problems together.

I know prep goes on especially in some areas. I'd heard that one prep center is so popular at one ES that there's an afterschool bus for kids that go there. I'm not sure this is a real problem at least not at this age.

Do you mean 20-25 points over 99th in MAP-Math? MCPS is looking specifically at MAP-R. If you did mean MAP-R, your child likely has hyperlexia, which most often comes with its own issues.

If PP had a kid with hyperlexia, they'd probably know it, so what's your point? Sounds like unfounded insecurity and sour grapes.

Just curious?

The reason you wrote "If your kid scored that high, they probably have a burdensome neurological difference" is that you were... just curious?

Yes, I have a relative with hyperlexia so it was a guess. You see more of what you're familiar with, I guess.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our kid scored a 234 on Reading. Lexile level 1245L–1395LL. Our home is in bounds for a Title 1 school, but he's been attending a small private. Excellent student. He was not even selected for the CES lottery, and we are shocked. 99th percentile in reading, 98th in math. He's white, though it seems from this thread that's not a factor. We suppose and imagine the county assumes he's doing fine in private, but private doesn't equal accelerated. I wish I better understood the logic and wasn't simply guessing.

This seems wrong. It's really unethical and disgusting MCPS isn't releasing more information. It's possible they normed the private school kids against each other.
I know in Fairfax they did something in the way they admit that reduced the number of private school admissions to the TJ magnet really dramatically. I don't recall what but my guess is applicants from private are overwhelmingly white/Asian and higher income which is what they do not want.

Oh FFS. While public schools are set up to serve all children in their area, I don't think it rises to the level of discrimination to assume that kids already attending privates would most likely continue at those privates if not admitted to a PS special program, and to admit accordingly. And that's discrimination against private school students-- not white and Asian students. I mean, really.

I agree.

I'm not opposed to the policy in general. I just think the school districts should be transparent about it which I think Fairfax was but MCPS is not.
The other thing is that in Fairfax it was done with clear racial motivations according to text messages and other documents by the people making those policies so that's wrong.

I'm not clear on that at all. I know some people may want to believe that but I think it was done to give everyone a fair chance not just people willing to game the system by dumping tens of thousands into prep classees.

Am I that naive that I am shocked by this / don’t fully believe it? People prep their kids for MAP tests? We didn’t even know what they were when he entered school and aren’t even that aware of when they’re given. Often they’ll tell us like the day before. Is this a myth? Does anyone know a kid who was actually in MAP prep?

Also, I have to say I’m humbled by some of these scores. My son was 227 at 98th%ile. Prior to this last test he has been straight 99%ile in both math and reading. I have been very curious to know how many others like him are out there. It’s very helpful to know he will be in CES with kids who are just as or more capable as he is. While it’s reported as only a percentile difference, the difference between 227 and 240 seems significant to me!

I'm the parent of a child with 230+ MAP-R score and and a seat at CES. DC never prepped and has always scored in 99 percentile for both reading and math. I'm also skeptical that lots of kids are prepping and that "tens of thousands" are being spent doing it. If they were prepping in such large numbers, I'd expect to see a greater discrepancy in MAP scores between MCPS and national than the one point or so difference shown in the lastest report.

I also wonder how many kids there are out there like ours, and how many of them were accepted into CES.

I'm not that PP, but are you asking how many kids are consistently ~99th percentile across the board, didn't prep and did get into CES? My kid is one of those as well. I'm sure there are at least as many who are the same but just didn't get selected from the pool.

Maybe I'm naive or just live in a more laid back neighborhood, but it would be surprising to me if too many people prepped for the test with outside tutors, even in a very uptight area.

IDK, but I feel like it's actually hard to prep to that level, though there are surely some kids who 1) do get lots of outside tutoring as a supplement and 2) get 99s across the board. But that doesn't mean there's causation at work and they wouldn't have scored in the 99th regardless of prep. It's one thing to get your kid from an 85 to a 90 or maybe even 95 with test prep. I don't know how successful you'd be trying to get your kid from a 95 to a 99, or even 97 to 99, even if it should be just as easy or easier, in theory.

Maybe because 99th is actually broad, and if you have a kid consistently in 99th, they're probably very firmly in 99th, not just barely. And if they're actually more like 99.5 or 99.95 (you can see for some tests online, even if they don't share decimals in the report), well...

A 99.5 kid is a 1 in 200 kid and a 99.95 kid is a 1 in 2000 kid-- not just a 1 in 100 kid (99).

I just don't think you can prep to that in most cases, if you started out as a 1 in 20 kid (95).

Separately, I'd assume that about 2-3% in MCPS consistently score around 99th (nationally) across the board.

My youngest also wasn't selected they were 20-25 points over the 99th%. At this age I wouldn't call what they do prep per see, but they are an avid reader and we enjoy solving math problems together.

I know prep goes on especially in some areas. I'd heard that one prep center is so popular at one ES that there's an afterschool bus for kids that go there. I'm not sure this is a real problem at least not at this age.

Do you mean 20-25 points over 99th in MAP-Math? MCPS is looking specifically at MAP-R. If you did mean MAP-R, your child likely has hyperlexia, which most often comes with its own issues.

If PP had a kid with hyperlexia, they'd probably know it, so what's your point? Sounds like unfounded insecurity and sour grapes.

Just curious?

The reason you wrote "If your kid scored that high, they probably have a burdensome neurological difference" is that you were... just curious?

Yes, I have a relative with hyperlexia so it was a guess. You see more of what you're familiar with, I guess.

But you can understand how a statement like that could come off poorly?

[Anonymous]

I'm the one who wrote about my kid with high scores in private. There were several incorrect assumptions about how we help our kid or the advantages he's had. His school was closed just as long as MCPS during COVID, which is one reason we'd like to leave. Another is prepping for the test, which we did not do (ever. any. period.). We really don't know if private school kids are compared to others in private or if his nontraditional report card (which has no grades) was the issue. We are simply confused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the one who wrote about my kid with high scores in private. There were several incorrect assumptions about how we help our kid or the advantages he's had. His school was closed just as long as MCPS during COVID, which is one reason we'd like to leave. Another is prepping for the test, which we did not do (ever. any. period.). We really don't know if private school kids are compared to others in private or if his nontraditional report card (which has no grades) was the issue. We are simply confused.

MCPS has no future. Stay in private school.

[Anonymous]

No, 2e giftedness is VERY common. You on the other hand need to get that chip off your shoulder. Your child is or isn't. Your reaction to it is much more telling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the one who wrote about my kid with high scores in private. There were several incorrect assumptions about how we help our kid or the advantages he's had. His school was closed just as long as MCPS during COVID, which is one reason we'd like to leave. Another is prepping for the test, which we did not do (ever. any. period.). We really don't know if private school kids are compared to others in private or if his nontraditional report card (which has no grades) was the issue. We are simply confused.

I think his nontraditional report card without grades is probably to blame.

13) How will students who have missing data or private/homeschooled students be reviewed?
Parents/guardians of students in these groups will be able to upload any documents helpful to the review using the form available here. Parents can visit this link for more information. Students with missing data and private/home schooled students will be reviewed by an expert panel to determine if students demonstrate a need for enriched and accelerated instruction. If they demonstrate a need, they will be placed in the lottery pool. Once all students identified for needing enrichment have been entered into the lottery pool, placement into the regional or local CES will be conducted through a lottery. Students remaining in the lottery pool will receive enrichment at their local elementary school through the Enriched Literacy Curriculum or Benchmark Advance with enrichment. Documents must be uploaded by March 1, 2022 to be part of the central review and initial lottery.

-- from CES FAQ

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grizzled veteran of the MCPS Magnet Hunger Games here and people absolutely prep, even if they don't call it that. Sure, they may just call it tutoring, but when you are paying for access to above-grade-level instruction, that's prepping. Particularly when admission is based solely on a test that measures exposure to materials.

It's slightly less of an issue at the level of CES admissions than MS and HS magnet admissions, though.

The first day of my kids CES class a few years ago the teacher asked the students how many of you had practiced taking the CogAT ahead of time. He said 75% of the kids raised their hands.

1) That might depend on the CES
2) Practice, in at least some cases, might be a parent looking up a few sample questions so their kids know what the test will be like
3) I don't think kids practice for the MAP in the same way

I think there's no question parents used to have their kids practice for the CogAT. The same probably holds true now for MAP exams. MCPS appears to have tried to correct for that by setting the required MAP-R score to qualify for the lottery pool a lot higher for low FARMS schools where most of this kind of prep work goes on (i.e. "local norming"). It's a way to even the playing field a bit and allow kids from schools without those additional resources at home to have a better shot at the CES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son (who is Black) was in the 95th percentile on MAP-R at a "focus" school, was placed in the lottery, did not get in the regional CES. Not sure how or if this matches the anecdotes already gathered in this thread.

I'll admit to a little pang because I was in "GT" classes when I was a kid and I have a love/hate relationship with that label. But staying in his home school is probably a better move for him, and I feel confident that his needs will be met.

You should appeal this decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son (who is Black) was in the 95th percentile on MAP-R at a "focus" school, was placed in the lottery, did not get in the regional CES. Not sure how or if this matches the anecdotes already gathered in this thread.

I'll admit to a little pang because I was in "GT" classes when I was a kid and I have a love/hate relationship with that label. But staying in his home school is probably a better move for him, and I feel confident that his needs will be met.

You should appeal this decision.

WHY. Why should this parent appeal?

I'm a flaming progressive that would be happy to have race be a consideration, but it's not.

So what is there to appeal? A 95th percentile kid WAS put in the lottery pool, but then wasn't randomly selected? Just like tons of other 90th, 95th and 99th percentile kids, because there are more of them than slots available?

Thus...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son (who is Black) was in the 95th percentile on MAP-R at a "focus" school, was placed in the lottery, did not get in the regional CES. Not sure how or if this matches the anecdotes already gathered in this thread.

I'll admit to a little pang because I was in "GT" classes when I was a kid and I have a love/hate relationship with that label. But staying in his home school is probably a better move for him, and I feel confident that his needs will be met.

You should appeal this decision.

WHY. Why should this parent appeal?

I'm a flaming progressive that would be happy to have race be a consideration, but it's not.

So what is there to appeal? A 95th percentile kid WAS put in the lottery pool, but then wasn't randomly selected? Just like tons of other 90th, 95th and 99th percentile kids, because there are more of them than slots available?

Thus...?

I would like to believe it is an absolutely fair lottery game. Your case support it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son (who is Black) was in the 95th percentile on MAP-R at a "focus" school, was placed in the lottery, did not get in the regional CES. Not sure how or if this matches the anecdotes already gathered in this thread.

I'll admit to a little pang because I was in "GT" classes when I was a kid and I have a love/hate relationship with that label. But staying in his home school is probably a better move for him, and I feel confident that his needs will be met.

You should appeal this decision.

You can only appeal not being in-lottery. You cannot appeal random lottery luck. Not only would it be dumb, there's literally no protocol for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son (who is Black) was in the 95th percentile on MAP-R at a "focus" school, was placed in the lottery, did not get in the regional CES. Not sure how or if this matches the anecdotes already gathered in this thread.

I'll admit to a little pang because I was in "GT" classes when I was a kid and I have a love/hate relationship with that label. But staying in his home school is probably a better move for him, and I feel confident that his needs will be met.

You should appeal this decision.

WHY. Why should this parent appeal?

I'm a flaming progressive that would be happy to have race be a consideration, but it's not.

So what is there to appeal? A 95th percentile kid WAS put in the lottery pool, but then wasn't randomly selected? Just like tons of other 90th, 95th and 99th percentile kids, because there are more of them than slots available?

Thus...?

I would like to believe it is an absolutely fair lottery game. Your case support it.

There is a race consideration, it's just not explicit because that would be unlawful. By locally norming students' scores, MCPS made it easier for kids at high FARMS schools to qualify for the pool than kids from low FARMS schools. Because FARMS rates correlate so closely with how many underrepresented minority students attend a school, it was the best MCPS could do under the law to make the pool more racially diverse and less white. Was about time, especially in light of the prior conversations above about how many (mostly white/asian) parents used to game the system by paying for tutors and prep classes to make sure their kids score high on the entrance tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son (who is Black) was in the 95th percentile on MAP-R at a "focus" school, was placed in the lottery, did not get in the regional CES. Not sure how or if this matches the anecdotes already gathered in this thread.

I'll admit to a little pang because I was in "GT" classes when I was a kid and I have a love/hate relationship with that label. But staying in his home school is probably a better move for him, and I feel confident that his needs will be met.

You should appeal this decision.

WHY. Why should this parent appeal?

I'm a flaming progressive that would be happy to have race be a consideration, but it's not.

So what is there to appeal? A 95th percentile kid WAS put in the lottery pool, but then wasn't randomly selected? Just like tons of other 90th, 95th and 99th percentile kids, because there are more of them than slots available?

Thus...?

I would like to believe it is an absolutely fair lottery game. Your case support it.

There is a race consideration, it's just not explicit because that would be unlawful. By locally norming students' scores, MCPS made it easier for kids at high FARMS schools to qualify for the pool than kids from low FARMS schools. Because FARMS rates correlate so closely with how many underrepresented minority students attend a school, it was the best MCPS could do under the law to make the pool more racially diverse and less white. Was about time, especially in light of the prior conversations above about how many (mostly white/asian) parents used to game the system by paying for tutors and prep classes to make sure their kids score high on the entrance tests.

My mixed race (Blatino/White) kid at a Title I school make the pool but did not get into the CES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son (who is Black) was in the 95th percentile on MAP-R at a "focus" school, was placed in the lottery, did not get in the regional CES. Not sure how or if this matches the anecdotes already gathered in this thread.

I'll admit to a little pang because I was in "GT" classes when I was a kid and I have a love/hate relationship with that label. But staying in his home school is probably a better move for him, and I feel confident that his needs will be met.

You should appeal this decision.

WHY. Why should this parent appeal?

I'm a flaming progressive that would be happy to have race be a consideration, but it's not.

So what is there to appeal? A 95th percentile kid WAS put in the lottery pool, but then wasn't randomly selected? Just like tons of other 90th, 95th and 99th percentile kids, because there are more of them than slots available?

Thus...?

I would like to believe it is an absolutely fair lottery game. Your case support it.

There is a race consideration, it's just not explicit because that would be unlawful. By locally norming students' scores, MCPS made it easier for kids at high FARMS schools to qualify for the pool than kids from low FARMS schools. Because FARMS rates correlate so closely with how many underrepresented minority students attend a school, it was the best MCPS could do under the law to make the pool more racially diverse and less white. Was about time, especially in light of the prior conversations above about how many (mostly white/asian) parents used to game the system by paying for tutors and prep classes to make sure their kids score high on the entrance tests.

My mixed race (Blatino/White) kid at a Title I school make the pool but did not get into the CES.

The lottery itself is race-blind, so it doesn't matter at all what race your kid was. The point is that in determining how to make up the pool of kids eligible for the lottery in the first place, MCPS normalized scores to try to make sure more diverse kids qualified for the pool. The individual race of students is entirely irrelevant - what matters is the FARMS rate of the school you attend. If you attend a school with a high FARMS rate, it was easier to qualify for the lottery because the standards were lower. But once in the pool, it's a random lottery that pays no attention at all to race.