Majoring in English—why so much disrespect?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

I completely disagree with your assessment; English majors are absolutely employable. In fact, among the degrees that develop critical thinking and writing skills, I’d argue English is the strongest.

In my own career, I actively hire for those exact abilities: critical thinking, reading comprehension, and clear writing. English majors consistently excel in these areas and make excellent employees. The same goes for history majors and lawyers, even though my field has nothing to do with history. While many majors encourage analytical thinking, strong reading and writing skills are surprisingly rare.

DH is an engineer and it's a skill most of his employees are sorely lacking.

Personally, I’ve never once been unemployed as an English major. I earn a strong salary (currently $170k) and enjoy an excellent work/life balance

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

I completely disagree with your assessment; English majors are absolutely employable. In fact, among the degrees that develop critical thinking and writing skills, I’d argue English is the strongest.

In my own career, I actively hire for those exact abilities: critical thinking, reading comprehension, and clear writing. English majors consistently excel in these areas and make excellent employees. The same goes for history majors and lawyers, even though my field has nothing to do with history. While many majors encourage analytical thinking, strong reading and writing skills are surprisingly rare.

DH is an engineer and it's a skill most of his employees are sorely lacking.

Personally, I’ve never once been unemployed as an English major. I earn a strong salary (currently $170k) and enjoy an excellent work/life balance

The market doesn't care about your opinion and limited experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

I completely disagree with your assessment; English majors are absolutely employable. In fact, among the degrees that develop critical thinking and writing skills, I’d argue English is the strongest.

In my own career, I actively hire for those exact abilities: critical thinking, reading comprehension, and clear writing. English majors consistently excel in these areas and make excellent employees. The same goes for history majors and lawyers, even though my field has nothing to do with history. While many majors encourage analytical thinking, strong reading and writing skills are surprisingly rare.

DH is an engineer and it's a skill most of his employees are sorely lacking.

Personally, I’ve never once been unemployed as an English major. I earn a strong salary (currently $170k) and enjoy an excellent work/life balance

The market doesn't care about your opinion and limited experience.

Good thing that you also aren’t the market.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

I completely disagree with your assessment; English majors are absolutely employable. In fact, among the degrees that develop critical thinking and writing skills, I’d argue English is the strongest.

In my own career, I actively hire for those exact abilities: critical thinking, reading comprehension, and clear writing. English majors consistently excel in these areas and make excellent employees. The same goes for history majors and lawyers, even though my field has nothing to do with history. While many majors encourage analytical thinking, strong reading and writing skills are surprisingly rare.

DH is an engineer and it's a skill most of his employees are sorely lacking.

Personally, I’ve never once been unemployed as an English major. I earn a strong salary (currently $170k) and enjoy an excellent work/life balance

A government job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

I completely disagree with your assessment; English majors are absolutely employable. In fact, among the degrees that develop critical thinking and writing skills, I’d argue English is the strongest.

In my own career, I actively hire for those exact abilities: critical thinking, reading comprehension, and clear writing. English majors consistently excel in these areas and make excellent employees. The same goes for history majors and lawyers, even though my field has nothing to do with history. While many majors encourage analytical thinking, strong reading and writing skills are surprisingly rare.

DH is an engineer and it's a skill most of his employees are sorely lacking.

Personally, I’ve never once been unemployed as an English major. I earn a strong salary (currently $170k) and enjoy an excellent work/life balance

The market doesn't care about your opinion and limited experience.

Good thing that you also aren’t the market.

We live in the 21st century and data is available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:History and English were considered respectable majors in the past. I know many who went on to law school or medical school. They’re generally thought to have good writing and analytical skills. Now, people scoff when you saying you’re majoring in English or history. I know there’s AI to worry about, but isn’t that true for CS and accounting too?

It's because English is the epitome of the sort of liberal arts degree that committed hara-kiri and now is a brainless zombie shuffling through the graveyard of academe. English majors at mid-tier colleges are unable to read anything difficult, because their degree doesn't prepare them for it. English majors at higher end colleges might be better able to read difficult texts -- rigorous data is not available, but see here for concerns ( https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-elite-college-students-who-cant-read-books/679945/ ) -- but don't have the need to do so to make their way through the major.

Allow me to shamelessly plagiarize my post, from here: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1275855.page

This recently published paper looked at the reading ability of English majors at two colleges in the middle tier. Not particularly selective, but also not open enrollment. Average reading ACT score of the participants was 22.4, around the 74th percentile. Perhaps a 550 in SAT English terms, ie a group of students which should have a substantial portion of 'college material'.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/922346

"This paper analyzes the results from a think-aloud reading study designed to test the reading comprehension skills of 85 English majors from two regional Kansas universities. From January to April of 2015, subjects participated in a recorded, twenty-minute reading session in which they were asked to read the first seven paragraphs of Charles Dickens’ Bleak House out loud to a facilitator and then translate each sentence into plain English. Before subjects started the reading tests, they were given access to online resources and dictionaries and advised that they could also use their own cell phones as a resource. The facilitators also assured the subjects that were free to go at their own pace and did not have to finish reading all seven paragraphs by the end of the exam. As part of the study, each subject filled out a survey collecting personal data (class rank, G.P.A., etc.) and took a national literacy exam (the Degrees of Reading Power Test 10A). After the 85 taped reading tests were completed, the results were transcribed and coded."

As can be expected, the results are horrendous.

"Beyond their reading tactics, problematic readers were continually challenged by the figures of speech that are woven into the novel’s descriptions. 57 percent of the subjects would ignore a figure of speech altogether and try to translate the literal meanings around it while 41 percent would interpret at least one figure of speech literally, even if it made no sense in the context of the sentence. One subject even imagined dinosaurs lumbering around London:

Original Text:

As much mud in the streets, as if the waters had but newly retired from the face of the earth, and it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill.
Subject:

[Pause.] [Laughs.] So it’s like, um, [Pause.] the mud was all in the streets, and we were, no . . . [Pause.] so everything’s been like kind of washed around and we might find Megalosaurus bones but he’s says they’re waddling, um, all up the hill.

The subject cannot make the leap to figurative language. She first guesses that the dinosaur is just “bones” and then is stuck stating that the bones are “waddling, um, all up the hill” because she can see that Dickens has the dinosaur moving. Because she cannot logically tie the ideas together, she just leaves her interpretation as is and goes on to the next sentence. "

This next one is an attempt by someone described as a 'competent reader'

"Original Text:

LONDON. Michaelmas Term lately over, and the Lord Chancellor sitting in Lincoln’s Inn Hall. Implacable November weather. As much mud in the streets, as if the waters had but newly retired from the face of the earth, and it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill. Smoke lowering down . . .
Facilitator:

Before you go on, I’m going to ask you to kind of explain.
Subject:

Oh, O.K.
Facilitator:

what you read so far, so.
Subject:

O.K. Two characters it’s pointed out this Michaelmas and Lord Chancellor described as sitting in Lincoln’s Inn Hall.
Facilitator:

O.K.
Subject:

Um, talk about the November weather. Uh, mud in the streets. And, uh, I do probably need to look up “Megolasaurus”— “meet a Megolasaurus, forty feet long or so,” so it’s probably some kind of an animal or something or another that it is talking about encountering in the streets. And “wandering like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill.” So, yup, I think we’ve encountered some kind of an animal these, these characters have, have met in the street. yup, I think we’ve encountered some kind of an animal these, these characters have, have met in the street."


To add to the horror, this study is based on data collected in *2015*. However bad things were then, they are much worse now.

I will add: if the liberal arts had not destroyed themselves, these kids could very well have done better. Abandonment of the slow process of scaffolding kids through more and more difficult texts through elementary and then high school has helped breed rampant failures by English departments in colleges.

If anything, this points to the need for more and better English education in high school and in college. We can't abandon the liberal arts in college because clearly students aren't learning what they need. I bet a similar study of historical analysis/understanding would be just as dim.

If we accept as true DCUM belief that AI is taking over everything, the skills that these students lack will be even more important.

I agree that better would be valuable. But there are few colleges that even offer a course of study that reaches the mark, and fewer that ensure their students have reached it, and even fewer where the degree is actually in "English". Off the top of my head, in fact, I can't think of any -- St. John's, Zaytuna, New Franklin and others of that ilk graduate their students with degrees titled as variations on the Liberal Arts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

I completely disagree with your assessment; English majors are absolutely employable. In fact, among the degrees that develop critical thinking and writing skills, I’d argue English is the strongest.

In my own career, I actively hire for those exact abilities: critical thinking, reading comprehension, and clear writing. English majors consistently excel in these areas and make excellent employees. The same goes for history majors and lawyers, even though my field has nothing to do with history. While many majors encourage analytical thinking, strong reading and writing skills are surprisingly rare.

DH is an engineer and it's a skill most of his employees are sorely lacking.

Personally, I’ve never once been unemployed as an English major. I earn a strong salary (currently $170k) and enjoy an excellent work/life balance

What’s the job? Nobody is saying there aren’t jobs well-suited for an English major. Just that are far fewer than STEM and other quantitiive-heavy backgrounds.

A friend of mine works at McKinsey helping publish research reports and they hire only humanities majors. The group is small…only 20 people. Even the vast majority of McKinsey consultants come from quantitative backgrounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

I completely disagree with your assessment; English majors are absolutely employable. In fact, among the degrees that develop critical thinking and writing skills, I’d argue English is the strongest.

In my own career, I actively hire for those exact abilities: critical thinking, reading comprehension, and clear writing. English majors consistently excel in these areas and make excellent employees. The same goes for history majors and lawyers, even though my field has nothing to do with history. While many majors encourage analytical thinking, strong reading and writing skills are surprisingly rare.

DH is an engineer and it's a skill most of his employees are sorely lacking.

Personally, I’ve never once been unemployed as an English major. I earn a strong salary (currently $170k) and enjoy an excellent work/life balance

What’s the job? Nobody is saying there aren’t jobs well-suited for an English major. Just that are far fewer than STEM and other quantitiive-heavy backgrounds.

A friend of mine works at McKinsey helping publish research reports and they hire only humanities majors. The group is small…only 20 people. Even the vast majority of McKinsey consultants come from quantitative backgrounds.

Impressive that you know the educational background of a friend's employer. I've worked for the same company for 11 years. I probably know where maybe 10 colleagues went to school and even fewer their field of study.

[Anonymous]

It’s very weird how combative some posters are to others who are just expressing an affinity for the major/subject. No one said YOU had to foot the bill. Let people do whatever they want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s very weird how combative some posters are to others who are just expressing an affinity for the major/subject. No one said YOU had to foot the bill. Let people do whatever they want.

Super weird. I'm not an English major myself, but I have two relatives who were, both are/were successful in their careers. One went on to a professional school, the other did not. And I have a kid majoring in English, not worried at all about it.

[Anonymous]

It must be resentment. There are some weirdly angry people here. And yes, obviously a bunch are just trolling to get a rise out of people, but some of these people mean what they write.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many people think its easy - I speak English, how difficult can it be? They don't understand (or don't want to understand) what the major entails. The breadth and type of literature that is read is not easy. Just try reading Chaucer's work in its original Middle English with a deep understanding followed by critical analysis and writing. I understand it's difficult to get a high paying job like in finance which is why many English majors do go on to grad school.

l

GMU English grad here again. No, it was really really easy. They even had movie classes, movies! And I skipped the hard books. Just pay attention in class and take some notes, I never read a single Faulkner book.

Well, that's GMU for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:History and English were considered respectable majors in the past. I know many who went on to law school or medical school. They’re generally thought to have good writing and analytical skills. Now, people scoff when you saying you’re majoring in English or history. I know there’s AI to worry about, but isn’t that true for CS and accounting too?

It's because English is the epitome of the sort of liberal arts degree that committed hara-kiri and now is a brainless zombie shuffling through the graveyard of academe. English majors at mid-tier colleges are unable to read anything difficult, because their degree doesn't prepare them for it. English majors at higher end colleges might be better able to read difficult texts -- rigorous data is not available, but see here for concerns ( https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-elite-college-students-who-cant-read-books/679945/ ) -- but don't have the need to do so to make their way through the major.

Allow me to shamelessly plagiarize my post, from here: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1275855.page

This recently published paper looked at the reading ability of English majors at two colleges in the middle tier. Not particularly selective, but also not open enrollment. Average reading ACT score of the participants was 22.4, around the 74th percentile. Perhaps a 550 in SAT English terms, ie a group of students which should have a substantial portion of 'college material'.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/922346

"This paper analyzes the results from a think-aloud reading study designed to test the reading comprehension skills of 85 English majors from two regional Kansas universities. From January to April of 2015, subjects participated in a recorded, twenty-minute reading session in which they were asked to read the first seven paragraphs of Charles Dickens’ Bleak House out loud to a facilitator and then translate each sentence into plain English. Before subjects started the reading tests, they were given access to online resources and dictionaries and advised that they could also use their own cell phones as a resource. The facilitators also assured the subjects that were free to go at their own pace and did not have to finish reading all seven paragraphs by the end of the exam. As part of the study, each subject filled out a survey collecting personal data (class rank, G.P.A., etc.) and took a national literacy exam (the Degrees of Reading Power Test 10A). After the 85 taped reading tests were completed, the results were transcribed and coded."

As can be expected, the results are horrendous.

"Beyond their reading tactics, problematic readers were continually challenged by the figures of speech that are woven into the novel’s descriptions. 57 percent of the subjects would ignore a figure of speech altogether and try to translate the literal meanings around it while 41 percent would interpret at least one figure of speech literally, even if it made no sense in the context of the sentence. One subject even imagined dinosaurs lumbering around London:

Original Text:

As much mud in the streets, as if the waters had but newly retired from the face of the earth, and it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill.
Subject:

[Pause.] [Laughs.] So it’s like, um, [Pause.] the mud was all in the streets, and we were, no . . . [Pause.] so everything’s been like kind of washed around and we might find Megalosaurus bones but he’s says they’re waddling, um, all up the hill.

The subject cannot make the leap to figurative language. She first guesses that the dinosaur is just “bones” and then is stuck stating that the bones are “waddling, um, all up the hill” because she can see that Dickens has the dinosaur moving. Because she cannot logically tie the ideas together, she just leaves her interpretation as is and goes on to the next sentence. "

This next one is an attempt by someone described as a 'competent reader'

"Original Text:

LONDON. Michaelmas Term lately over, and the Lord Chancellor sitting in Lincoln’s Inn Hall. Implacable November weather. As much mud in the streets, as if the waters had but newly retired from the face of the earth, and it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill. Smoke lowering down . . .
Facilitator:

Before you go on, I’m going to ask you to kind of explain.
Subject:

Oh, O.K.
Facilitator:

what you read so far, so.
Subject:

O.K. Two characters it’s pointed out this Michaelmas and Lord Chancellor described as sitting in Lincoln’s Inn Hall.
Facilitator:

O.K.
Subject:

Um, talk about the November weather. Uh, mud in the streets. And, uh, I do probably need to look up “Megolasaurus”— “meet a Megolasaurus, forty feet long or so,” so it’s probably some kind of an animal or something or another that it is talking about encountering in the streets. And “wandering like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill.” So, yup, I think we’ve encountered some kind of an animal these, these characters have, have met in the street. yup, I think we’ve encountered some kind of an animal these, these characters have, have met in the street."


To add to the horror, this study is based on data collected in *2015*. However bad things were then, they are much worse now.

I will add: if the liberal arts had not destroyed themselves, these kids could very well have done better. Abandonment of the slow process of scaffolding kids through more and more difficult texts through elementary and then high school has helped breed rampant failures by English departments in colleges.

If anything, this points to the need for more and better English education in high school and in college. We can't abandon the liberal arts in college because clearly students aren't learning what they need. I bet a similar study of historical analysis/understanding would be just as dim.

If we accept as true DCUM belief that AI is taking over everything, the skills that these students lack will be even more important.

Parents are begging for better educations for their kids, stronger programs and more challenging work. It's not going to happen. Plenty of people graduate high school never having read a single chapter book in their lives. High schools goal has shifted away from educating kids to making sure that every kid passes. They aren't the same thing. Schools have learned that if you water everything down, everyone passes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Current English major and although I do get bored with Victorian novels I can’t imagine studying anything else. I have a plan of what I want to do and I’m happy. My major has set me back pre-professionally (no good internships), but I love writing and that’s what I want to work on. I also want to work on my critical thinking skills. I’m going into debt, but at least I’ve learned things I never thought I’d learn. Would I prefer a major that was better suited to my career? Maybe! But, I won’t have this level of learning and exploring again so I’ll use college for that.

How do you expect to pay your debts off? Hoping for another D potus who will have taxpayers pay off your debt?

Also, there are many many majors you can study that teach critical thinking skills, and where you will be able to get a decent paying job and not expect taxpayers to foot your bill.

Why do you assume the student won’t pay off their own loans?

They must be thinking about all the tax loopholes and tax breaks for the uberwealthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It must be resentment. There are some weirdly angry people here. And yes, obviously a bunch are just trolling to get a rise out of people, but some of these people mean what they write.

Yes, I'm angry that we taxpayers had to foot your bill. So were millions of others.