DC CAS popular schools summary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:schools-grossly_b_1638663.html - There's a lot more going to schools like Oyster than what the budget figure shows. Either that, or there is nearly $20,000 per student just completely vanishing into a black hole at DCPS central office. Per outside sources there's far more money going into DCPS schools. And before anyone makes any accusations about the accuracy or reliability of those sources of information, those spending numbers are also reflected in official Census Bureau statistics http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/10f33pub.pdf

For the love of God, why can’t you seem to grasp the fact that the $30-$35k amount is the AVERAGE amount, per pupil, spent across DCPS? You do understand what average means, right? DCPS has to educate special needs students, and they tend to ship the more serious cases off to very expensive private schools that can cost upwards of $40 or $50k. That amount RAISES the average amount spent per pupil. Got it?


There are roughly 1200 DCPS kids placed in private schools, and roughly 40,000 kids in DCPS. At $35k per student the DCPS budget is roughly $1.4 billion. Let's say every kid in a private placement costs $50,000 per year. That's $15K more than the DCPS average, but it's only an extra $18 million out of $1.4 billion. You take that out and the per pupil remaining is $34,550.

Let's go even further and say it costs $100K per student for the private placements. That would be $78 million extra. That still leaves $33+K per student.

Anonymous wrote: Either that, or there is nearly $20,000 per student just completely vanishing into a black hole at DCPS central office. Per outside sources there's far more money going into DCPS schools.

The only thing I would disagree with is the modifier "nearly." I might say "over" instead.

[Anonymous]

Let's walk through the math to see if it's actually special needs that's jacking the average up to $30k per student from the $11k being claimed...

DCPS overall budget numbers indicate that they are spending around $2.9 million for every 100 students in the system.

The argument in this thread has been that it only costs $11k per student, but the average is higher because of special needs.

Based on NCES data, typically around 13% of a student body will be special needs students. So for every 100, typically 13 will be special needs, 87 will not.

If it's supposedly $11k per student normally, that means that with 87 non-special-needs students out of every 100 students that would entail a cost of $957,000 for 87 out of the $2.9 million being spent for 100, so presumably that means $1,943,000 is the cost of educating the remaining 13 special needs kids - which works out to be an average cost of $149,460 per special needs student.

Is that really the argument folks are making when they defend the $11k per student figure and point to the remainder of the cost as being because of special needs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's walk through the math to see if it's actually special needs that's jacking the average up to $30k per student from the $11k being claimed...

DCPS overall budget numbers indicate that they are spending around $2.9 million for every 100 students in the system.

The argument in this thread has been that it only costs $11k per student, but the average is higher because of special needs.

Based on NCES data, typically around 13% of a student body will be special needs students. So for every 100, typically 13 will be special needs, 87 will not.

If it's supposedly $11k per student normally, that means that with 87 non-special-needs students out of every 100 students that would entail a cost of $957,000 for 87 out of the $2.9 million being spent for 100, so presumably that means $1,943,000 is the cost of educating the remaining 13 special needs kids - which works out to be an average cost of $149,460 per special needs student.

Is that really the argument folks are making when they defend the $11k per student figure and point to the remainder of the cost as being because of special needs?

Good math. Very poor reading comprehension. Lack of analysis.for example, where are DCPS overhead costs?

[Anonymous]

Guy Brandenburg has done phenomenal work in the past analyzing dccas results. His latest comments are quite interesting.
Brandenburg: " supposedly, this year’s DC-CAS was modeled on the Common Core, since the DCPS curriculum this past year was Common Core, as opposed to the Massachusetts-based curriculum we used for the previous 8 years or so.
If that is the case, then it’s a brand-new test, and only by the utmost chance would the scores really be comparable.
Reply
On August 1, 2013 at 8:58 pm gfbrandenburg said:

PPS: I have put in several phone calls to the DC OSSE data office; no response yet at all."

It is interesting that many schools experienced a significant bump in reading and mathematics although the System has done nothing different. System-wide PD in both subject areas is still virtually non-existent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Guy Brandenburg has done phenomenal work in the past analyzing dccas results. His latest comments are quite interesting.
Brandenburg: " supposedly, this year’s DC-CAS was modeled on the Common Core, since the DCPS curriculum this past year was Common Core, as opposed to the Massachusetts-based curriculum we used for the previous 8 years or so.
If that is the case, then it’s a brand-new test, and only by the utmost chance would the scores really be comparable.
Reply
On August 1, 2013 at 8:58 pm gfbrandenburg said:

PPS: I have put in several phone calls to the DC OSSE data office; no response yet at all."

It is interesting that many schools experienced a significant bump in reading and mathematics although the System has done nothing different. System-wide PD in both subject areas is still virtually non-existent.

True. Also, we had PIAs this year and got rid of DC BAS, the PIAs were aligned with common core and as anyone who has been around a while knows the DC BAS was not aligned with anything. The other thing to consider is that all focus is now on the CAS to the detriment of everything else, so I'm sure in reality students did not work as hard in music, PE, and other electives as these were the classes the students were often pulled from. It is what it is, and depends what your goal is for your child's education. DC CAS scores may have gone up, but who knows what it really means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why can't most Capitol Hill Montessori kids do grade level math when so few are FARMs?

CHM@L is, pound for pound, the worst performer on this list. There is no excuse for a school with those demographics (FARMs %) to score that poorly.

The elementary program did have a huge challenge this year because the lead teacher was on sick leave for essentially the entire year, but the even before that the math scores were nothing to write home about.

Is it possible that CHM did a great job of providing high-quality educational opportunities that are not measured by the DC CAS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really makes me wonder why more kids don't attempt Banneker.

Probably for the same reasons people don't send their kids to McKinley or Howard U or DC Prep.

I considered Banneker for my son. The whole focus was on assessment. The faculty that I spoke with never talked about the quality of the educational opportunities offered. It was a big turn-off. I considered McKinley, but the principal was unable to clearly explain to me what McKinley's mission was. All he could talk about was the WiFi. Another big turn-off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is pretty depressing, Barnard is tanking while their SES is rising, and I have no idea what they are doing differently to cause the decline, except that they extended the school to include 5th grade?

That would do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCPS spends 35k per student system wide not only at Oyster but at Amidon too. However, that includes money spent on sp Ed and all the admins at headquarters and facilities costs. 19k for charters includes their sp Ed costs, facilities, etc. too. Yes, charters have sp ed kids which they have to provide FAPE just like DCPS but have to do it with less money.

Despite the inherent unfairness in funding, charters are doing well including Kipp.

I looked it up. Oyster has $11,391 per student - this data point comes straight from the budget:
http://dc.gov/DCPS/Files/downloads/ABOUT%20DCPS/Budget%20-%20Finance/FY13%20documents/Final%20School%20Allocations-FY13/DCPS-OYSTERADAMS-Allocation-FY13.pdf

That factsheet appears to only list key staff funding. Note the absence of all of the other things that Oyster Adams is provided via DCPS, such things like textbooks and materials, the building, utilities and other infrastructure (huge expenses). Charters have to provide and pay for all those things on their own. The cost shown in the factsheet is just a small percentage of the overall cost of Oyster Adams.

Many of you are laboring under the wrong impression that Oyster is the recipient of endless DCPS cash. The school has to maintain two buildings with the funding it receives for only one building. The two teachers per class? Gone for most grades due to budget cuts. Oyster has to do a lot with a little, just like many other urban schools. Although there is always room for improvement, Oyster does a fantastic job, and that should be applauded. I'm not trying to dump on charters, but many of you never miss an opportunity to denigrate DCPS when it's in the charters' favor. Oyster is a shining example of a DCPS success, despite the many people who have tried to destroy it (both within and without) over the years. Just acknowledge its accomplishments without trying to explain it away with false statements (I.e., ...but it receives more funding...but it has complete control over admissions...but its been around longer and you know older means better...but, but, but).

The point is that Oyster gets much more funding and has more resources than any of the immersion charters. Plus they are allowed to give preferences (for Spanish speakers) and are in-bounds in a high SES area. It's the only EoP equivalent to the JKLMM schools. Oyster has higher DC CAS scores than any of the immersion charters. So.... Oyster should have high scores considering all the advantages they have.

No Oyster doesn't get much more funding (read the link above). It just produces better results with it's resources. Oyster has no control over the large influx of English speakers in k, which throws its balance off and makes it harder to teach the target language. Plus, Oyster isn't full immersion in PK and k like most charters. Btw, LAMB is notorious for providing an admissions preference for Spanish speakers--they just do it from the waitlist. And one more thing, Oyster is WoP, Adams is east--get your geography straight.

Really? Oyster doesn't have double the number of teachers, two teachers per class to provide bilingual education?

[Anonymous]

Speaking of comparing apples to oranges, this was the first year that the DC-CAS tested Common Core Math Standards. At least at the grade level I teach, many of the skills were pushed down from higher grade levels. This was also the first year that Common Core Math standards were taught. Common Core Math Standards were implemented in one year at all grade levels. It was not phased in a grade level at a time. Additionally, DCPS did not provide new, Common Core-aligned textbooks to DCPS teachers. Some schools purchased Common Core Aligned textbooks from their building-level budgets.

If you compare DC CAS math scores from last year with this year, it's apples to oranges.

If you consider that DCPS did not provide Common Core aligned textbooks, it's apples to oranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's walk through the math to see if it's actually special needs that's jacking the average up to $30k per student from the $11k being claimed...

DCPS overall budget numbers indicate that they are spending around $2.9 million for every 100 students in the system.

The argument in this thread has been that it only costs $11k per student, but the average is higher because of special needs.

Based on NCES data, typically around 13% of a student body will be special needs students. So for every 100, typically 13 will be special needs, 87 will not.

If it's supposedly $11k per student normally, that means that with 87 non-special-needs students out of every 100 students that would entail a cost of $957,000 for 87 out of the $2.9 million being spent for 100, so presumably that means $1,943,000 is the cost of educating the remaining 13 special needs kids - which works out to be an average cost of $149,460 per special needs student.

Is that really the argument folks are making when they defend the $11k per student figure and point to the remainder of the cost as being because of special needs?

Good math. Very poor reading comprehension. Lack of analysis.for example, where are DCPS overhead costs?

Bingo! It wasn't poor reading comprehension, I intentionally laid a trap there by demonstrating that it would have to take a whole lot more than just special needs kids to arrive at the average of $30k being spent per student in the DCPS system. Yes, special needs kids contribute some additional cost but it's nowhere near enough to raise the average cost to $30k per student, so the argument that it's all because of special needs kids simply does not hold water.

So now we are back to my original point - as I said before, the DCPS school budget fact sheets showing $11k are grossly underreporting, as they do not include facility costs, overhead, textbooks, school lunches or any of the other additional costs incurred at each school - and many of those are big ticket items - whereas for charters, their budgets show EVERYTHING.

So, the attempt to compare cost per student based on an individual DCPS school budget sheet (in this case, $11k per student for Oyster) to cost per student based on a charter's budget (in this case, $18k per student for LAMB) is not valid - it's comparing apples to oranges - the more accurate comparison is the $30k per student for DCPS to the $18k per student for LAMB. I'd also point out that LAMB's spend per student is higher than most charters as per their budget sheet they got outside grant money - not all charters get that much in grant money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's walk through the math to see if it's actually special needs that's jacking the average up to $30k per student from the $11k being claimed...

DCPS overall budget numbers indicate that they are spending around $2.9 million for every 100 students in the system.

The argument in this thread has been that it only costs $11k per student, but the average is higher because of special needs.

Based on NCES data, typically around 13% of a student body will be special needs students. So for every 100, typically 13 will be special needs, 87 will not.

If it's supposedly $11k per student normally, that means that with 87 non-special-needs students out of every 100 students that would entail a cost of $957,000 for 87 out of the $2.9 million being spent for 100, so presumably that means $1,943,000 is the cost of educating the remaining 13 special needs kids - which works out to be an average cost of $149,460 per special needs student.

Is that really the argument folks are making when they defend the $11k per student figure and point to the remainder of the cost as being because of special needs?

Good math. Very poor reading comprehension. Lack of analysis.for example, where are DCPS overhead costs?

Bingo! It wasn't poor reading comprehension, I intentionally laid a trap there by demonstrating that it would have to take a whole lot more than just special needs kids to arrive at the average of $30k being spent per student in the DCPS system. Yes, special needs kids contribute some additional cost but it's nowhere near enough to raise the average cost to $30k per student, so the argument that it's all because of special needs kids simply does not hold water.

So now we are back to my original point - as I said before, the DCPS school budget fact sheets showing $11k are grossly underreporting, as they do not include facility costs, overhead, textbooks, school lunches or any of the other additional costs incurred at each school - and many of those are big ticket items - whereas for charters, their budgets show EVERYTHING.

So, the attempt to compare cost per student based on an individual DCPS school budget sheet (in this case, $11k per student for Oyster) to cost per student based on a charter's budget (in this case, $18k per student for LAMB) is not valid - it's comparing apples to oranges - the more accurate comparison is the $30k per student for DCPS to the $18k per student for LAMB. I'd also point out that LAMB's spend per student is higher than most charters as per their budget sheet they got outside grant money - not all charters get that much in grant money.

You are mixing direct and indirect costs. The real comparison would be expenses purely at the school level - you couldn't care less about Kaya Henderson $250k salary and the salaries of hundreds DCPS staff members who do nothing at the school level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's walk through the math to see if it's actually special needs that's jacking the average up to $30k per student from the $11k being claimed...

DCPS overall budget numbers indicate that they are spending around $2.9 million for every 100 students in the system.

The argument in this thread has been that it only costs $11k per student, but the average is higher because of special needs.

Based on NCES data, typically around 13% of a student body will be special needs students. So for every 100, typically 13 will be special needs, 87 will not.

If it's supposedly $11k per student normally, that means that with 87 non-special-needs students out of every 100 students that would entail a cost of $957,000 for 87 out of the $2.9 million being spent for 100, so presumably that means $1,943,000 is the cost of educating the remaining 13 special needs kids - which works out to be an average cost of $149,460 per special needs student.

Is that really the argument folks are making when they defend the $11k per student figure and point to the remainder of the cost as being because of special needs?

Good math. Very poor reading comprehension. Lack of analysis.for example, where are DCPS overhead costs?

Bingo! It wasn't poor reading comprehension, I intentionally laid a trap there by demonstrating that it would have to take a whole lot more than just special needs kids to arrive at the average of $30k being spent per student in the DCPS system. Yes, special needs kids contribute some additional cost but it's nowhere near enough to raise the average cost to $30k per student, so the argument that it's all because of special needs kids simply does not hold water.

So now we are back to my original point - as I said before, the DCPS school budget fact sheets showing $11k are grossly underreporting, as they do not include facility costs, overhead, textbooks, school lunches or any of the other additional costs incurred at each school - and many of those are big ticket items - whereas for charters, their budgets show EVERYTHING.

So, the attempt to compare cost per student based on an individual DCPS school budget sheet (in this case, $11k per student for Oyster) to cost per student based on a charter's budget (in this case, $18k per student for LAMB) is not valid - it's comparing apples to oranges - the more accurate comparison is the $30k per student for DCPS to the $18k per student for LAMB. I'd also point out that LAMB's spend per student is higher than most charters as per their budget sheet they got outside grant money - not all charters get that much in grant money.

You are mixing direct and indirect costs. The real comparison would be expenses purely at the school level - you couldn't care less about Kaya Henderson $250k salary and the salaries of hundreds DCPS staff members who do nothing at the school level.

Incorrect, as charters also have indirect costs at the administrative level. Charter schools' indirect costs are included in the budget figures, whereas they are omitted from the DCPS budget figures.

On the other hand, if it's your intent to be saying that indirect costs shouldn't count because DCPS administrative staff serve no function at the DCPS school level and do absolutely nothing of value for DCPS schools then why do we have all that administrative staff, and couldn't we save millions by getting rid of them if they truly serve no purpose?

Regardless, it still points to how schools are able to run in a much more lean and efficient fashion in the charter model as opposed to having a huge amount of administrative bloat which nearly triples the cost in the DCPS model.

[Anonymous]

Have you considered the cost of implementing IMPACT?

[Anonymous]

The cost of implementing IMPACT comes nowhere near what the differential is.