Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No, many Christians do what is pleasing to God by obeying his commandments. Has nothing to do with prayer, Bible study, etc. Just obeying his commandments. Which are really the same "laws" dictated by society.

So, they are not the same. The bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". But we don't kill witches.
Similarly:
Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee. - Leviticus 19:19
or:
When a woman has a discharge of blood, which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening

You see, there is some stuff from the bible we follow, and some we reject. Many of our laws have no basis in religion at all.

FYI: Most Christians follow the New Testament. Many things mandated in the Old Testament were done away with with Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. He made the "ultimate sacrifice" and, as such, we are no longer bound by OT laws. Jewish people, who don't believe in Jesus, follow the OT.

And this is the part that is every bit as much human interpretation as an atheist consulting their own moral sense of right v wrong.

Can you explain? I'm having trouble following.

Sure! You said you're not reliant on your own sense of morality. You just follow the Ten Commandments. Because that is God's Word. But it was pointed out to you that the OT has a long list of pre- and proscriptions. So why not follow them as we'll. to which you replied, essentially, because the Bible says we don't have to follow those anymore. But many others read the bible and come to a different interpretation. So you're no longer making a strict appeal to the word of god, but rather your interpretation of the word of god (or worse yet, a professional interpreter's translation of the word of god, that has been interpreted by some religious authority figure).

So your absolute morality is nothing more than a flawed human attempt at interpreting a holy document and deriving moral laws therefrom.

I'm sorry, still not totally following, but I'll give it a shot:

I never said I'm not reliant on my own sense of morality. But, what I will say is that my morality is shaped by my (Christian) upbringing and I've found it to be a great foundation upon which to build and live my life.

Yes, I follow God's commandments. re: OT/NT...a lot of the distinctions have to do with sacrifices and, with Jesus's death, the need for sacrifices was no more. Whether folks choose to continue following them is their personal choice.

And in that sense you're doing the same thing atheists do. PP responded to this by saying there was no human interpretation going on; she just followed God's Word. My point was that "God's Word" is a human construct. Whether it's which part of the Bible to adhere to, or which to ignore. There's tradition, there's authority figures, there's "revelation" which is essentially your internal moral compass.

Actually, what I find more accurate is that atheists follow religious principles (usually taught in their upbringing), yet reject the authoritative figure who governs the principle.

You understand that "religion" did not begin at a specific point in time, and then we just all somehow magically adopted those recently-bestowed-upon principals? All religions borrowed from their predecessors - Christianity from Judaism, from Sumerian and Mesopotamian religions, from smaller tribes and local band customs, etc etc etc. All religions basically built upon what was already there, but took a new twist. It's like a historical game of telephone, in a way.

[Anonymous]

To answer the op:

I govern how I live. My decisions are based on values and morals from upbringing (sense of right and wrong, if you will), experiences that have worked or not worked, influences from science, education or anecdotal information that changes the way I decide to operate.

Second question is too general to answer; not sure what you are asking. I could say a standard of working hard, being kind, being/teaching self responsibility but I'm not sure if that's what you are asking.

Recklessness is a human trait: though not one I'd ascribe in any great quantity to anyone other than those with no hope, such as Somali pirates (where good or bad actions don't serve to change their lot in life). Being an atheist doesn't mean I have no hope, so I don't see myself as reckless more than any other human.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No, many Christians do what is pleasing to God by obeying his commandments. Has nothing to do with prayer, Bible study, etc. Just obeying his commandments. Which are really the same "laws" dictated by society.

So, they are not the same. The bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". But we don't kill witches.
Similarly:
Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee. - Leviticus 19:19
or:
When a woman has a discharge of blood, which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening

You see, there is some stuff from the bible we follow, and some we reject. Many of our laws have no basis in religion at all.

FYI: Most Christians follow the New Testament. Many things mandated in the Old Testament were done away with with Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. He made the "ultimate sacrifice" and, as such, we are no longer bound by OT laws. Jewish people, who don't believe in Jesus, follow the OT.

And this is the part that is every bit as much human interpretation as an atheist consulting their own moral sense of right v wrong.

Can you explain? I'm having trouble following.

Sure! You said you're not reliant on your own sense of morality. You just follow the Ten Commandments. Because that is God's Word. But it was pointed out to you that the OT has a long list of pre- and proscriptions. So why not follow them as we'll. to which you replied, essentially, because the Bible says we don't have to follow those anymore. But many others read the bible and come to a different interpretation. So you're no longer making a strict appeal to the word of god, but rather your interpretation of the word of god (or worse yet, a professional interpreter's translation of the word of god, that has been interpreted by some religious authority figure).

So your absolute morality is nothing more than a flawed human attempt at interpreting a holy document and deriving moral laws therefrom.

I'm sorry, still not totally following, but I'll give it a shot:

I never said I'm not reliant on my own sense of morality. But, what I will say is that my morality is shaped by my (Christian) upbringing and I've found it to be a great foundation upon which to build and live my life.

Yes, I follow God's commandments. re: OT/NT...a lot of the distinctions have to do with sacrifices and, with Jesus's death, the need for sacrifices was no more. Whether folks choose to continue following them is their personal choice.

And in that sense you're doing the same thing atheists do. PP responded to this by saying there was no human interpretation going on; she just followed God's Word. My point was that "God's Word" is a human construct. Whether it's which part of the Bible to adhere to, or which to ignore. There's tradition, there's authority figures, there's "revelation" which is essentially your internal moral compass.

Actually, what I find more accurate is that atheists follow religious principles (usually taught in their upbringing), yet reject the authoritative figure who governs the principle.

You understand that "religion" did not begin at a specific point in time, and then we just all somehow magically adopted those recently-bestowed-upon principals? All religions borrowed from their predecessors - Christianity from Judaism, from Sumerian and Mesopotamian religions, from smaller tribes and local band customs, etc etc etc. All religions basically built upon what was already there, but took a new twist. It's like a historical game of telephone, in a way.

I'm not seeing how this information changes my statement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer the op:

I govern how I live. My decisions are based on values and morals from upbringing (sense of right and wrong, if you will), experiences that have worked or not worked, influences from science, education or anecdotal information that changes the way I decide to operate.

Second question is too general to answer; not sure what you are asking. I could say a standard of working hard, being kind, being/teaching self responsibility but I'm not sure if that's what you are asking.

Recklessness is a human trait: though not one I'd ascribe in any great quantity to anyone other than those with no hope, such as Somali pirates (where good or bad actions don't serve to change their lot in life). Being an atheist doesn't mean I have no hope, so I don't see myself as reckless more than any other human.

Interesting...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.

Since we're rational atheists (and because it sounds like the kind of stuff we see from our religious cousins on Facebook all the time) we're going to need a cite on this one.

The atheist blogger who converted:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2012/06/this-is-my-last-post-for-the-patheos-atheist-portal.html

The argument from conscience:

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/conscience.htm

Every culture has deviants - even atheists

I find it curious that none of these people ever seem to explain why they choose their particular god of choice. Of all the thousands and thousands of gods, and thousands of morality codes those gods have bestowed, why that one?

Can you provide any evidence of "other gods" proving their word/existence either through action or deed?

No religion can do that, because their only way of verifying or proving "existence" comes only from those within (and they all do that)

For Christians who believe in the Bible, there were acts of miracles and the evidence of God's existence.

Does this sort of proof exist among other religions?

Um. You need to get out more, or take a basic comparative theology course. ALL religions say they're right, and ALL religions have their own "miracles" or internal proof.

I understand other religions and what they believe. Not really sure why you find it necessary to be rude.

Come now. You tried to sneak in the assertion that Christianity had some sort of privileged place among world religions because of "miracles". I'm not the PP, but I agree that was a rather silly (or disingenuous) point. Any other believers who fail to see that distinction?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No, many Christians do what is pleasing to God by obeying his commandments. Has nothing to do with prayer, Bible study, etc. Just obeying his commandments. Which are really the same "laws" dictated by society.

So, they are not the same. The bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". But we don't kill witches.
Similarly:
Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee. - Leviticus 19:19
or:
When a woman has a discharge of blood, which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening

You see, there is some stuff from the bible we follow, and some we reject. Many of our laws have no basis in religion at all.

FYI: Most Christians follow the New Testament. Many things mandated in the Old Testament were done away with with Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. He made the "ultimate sacrifice" and, as such, we are no longer bound by OT laws. Jewish people, who don't believe in Jesus, follow the OT.

And this is the part that is every bit as much human interpretation as an atheist consulting their own moral sense of right v wrong.

Can you explain? I'm having trouble following.

Sure! You said you're not reliant on your own sense of morality. You just follow the Ten Commandments. Because that is God's Word. But it was pointed out to you that the OT has a long list of pre- and proscriptions. So why not follow them as we'll. to which you replied, essentially, because the Bible says we don't have to follow those anymore. But many others read the bible and come to a different interpretation. So you're no longer making a strict appeal to the word of god, but rather your interpretation of the word of god (or worse yet, a professional interpreter's translation of the word of god, that has been interpreted by some religious authority figure).

So your absolute morality is nothing more than a flawed human attempt at interpreting a holy document and deriving moral laws therefrom.

I'm sorry, still not totally following, but I'll give it a shot:

I never said I'm not reliant on my own sense of morality. But, what I will say is that my morality is shaped by my (Christian) upbringing and I've found it to be a great foundation upon which to build and live my life.

Yes, I follow God's commandments. re: OT/NT...a lot of the distinctions have to do with sacrifices and, with Jesus's death, the need for sacrifices was no more. Whether folks choose to continue following them is their personal choice.

And in that sense you're doing the same thing atheists do. PP responded to this by saying there was no human interpretation going on; she just followed God's Word. My point was that "God's Word" is a human construct. Whether it's which part of the Bible to adhere to, or which to ignore. There's tradition, there's authority figures, there's "revelation" which is essentially your internal moral compass.

Actually, what I find more accurate is that atheists follow religious principles (usually taught in their upbringing), yet reject the authoritative figure who governs the principle.

You understand that "religion" did not begin at a specific point in time, and then we just all somehow magically adopted those recently-bestowed-upon principals? All religions borrowed from their predecessors - Christianity from Judaism, from Sumerian and Mesopotamian religions, from smaller tribes and local band customs, etc etc etc. All religions basically built upon what was already there, but took a new twist. It's like a historical game of telephone, in a way.

I'm not seeing how this information changes my statement.

Because those "religious principals" were not religious principals forever and ever since the beginning of time. They were principally social and cultural ways of ordering chaos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My humanity commands how I live my life. Treating people how I want to be treated.

I'm not looking for any reward. I'm not looking for "blessings," or heaven, or anything self-serving.

I do good, because my humanity is enough - even if I don't get anything in return. To me, if you really need some book to tell you how to be a decent human being, then your ethics must be very flimsy - because you're basically admitting that being decent is not innate within you.

NP and atheist here- ITA

[Anonymous]

Not the pp, but everything you just described speaks to man's actions. In everything you're saying, when has God's Word changed on the issue?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let me try to put it to you in another way.

Why is a formal religion the only way in which a human can hear "god's word"?

Can God speak directly to a human's heart? Whether the human BELIEVES, or not?

What you call "God's word", derived, apparently, from a formal religion, I call my innate sense of right and wrong.

I believe atheists are morally superior because many of us know the difference between right and wrong without having to be threatened or forced to believe. We don't need it spoon fed. "God" is in our hearts. How many roving bands of atheists do you see perpetuating St. Batholomew Day massacres?


I believe the PPs point was, If God's word is unchanging, and religion is the way to know God's word, why do so many religions, who articulate and interpret the word of God as God's authority on earth, get it wrong SO often?

Why are you confident that you NOW know and understand God's word? When religion and humans have gotten it wrong so many times before?

Why do you think that religion/faith/belief in God is a superior way in which to know God's word, when religion and humans have gotten it wrong so many times before?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.

Since we're rational atheists (and because it sounds like the kind of stuff we see from our religious cousins on Facebook all the time) we're going to need a cite on this one.

The atheist blogger who converted:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2012/06/this-is-my-last-post-for-the-patheos-atheist-portal.html

The argument from conscience:

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/conscience.htm

Every culture has deviants - even atheists

I find it curious that none of these people ever seem to explain why they choose their particular god of choice. Of all the thousands and thousands of gods, and thousands of morality codes those gods have bestowed, why that one?

Can you provide any evidence of "other gods" proving their word/existence either through action or deed?

No religion can do that, because their only way of verifying or proving "existence" comes only from those within (and they all do that)

For Christians who believe in the Bible, there were acts of miracles and the evidence of God's existence.

Does this sort of proof exist among other religions?

Um. You need to get out more, or take a basic comparative theology course. ALL religions say they're right, and ALL religions have their own "miracles" or internal proof.

I understand other religions and what they believe. Not really sure why you find it necessary to be rude.

No, it's clear you don't understand other religions and what they believe. Pointing this out to you is not rude. If you truly think that only YOUR religion has "proof" of it being "right," you clearly demonstrate a profound lack of objective thinking. Religions are religions because they believe them to be true - they all have their own personal "proof." If they didn't, then they'd just be opinions. You clearly are incapable of thinking beyond your own bubble of your specific faith.

I said nothing about being right, nor that my religions was "the only way". I merely was asking about evidence of miracles, existence, etc.

But again, your tone has turned from a basic debate to one of hostility so I'll choose to not respond to this particular sub-thread again.

You were trying to casually say "but other religions don't have proof of their truth, only mine does." I'm sorry, but I don't think you're that naive. And if you really are, it stands that you need get outside of your cornered niche and explore more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.

Since we're rational atheists (and because it sounds like the kind of stuff we see from our religious cousins on Facebook all the time) we're going to need a cite on this one.

The atheist blogger who converted:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2012/06/this-is-my-last-post-for-the-patheos-atheist-portal.html

The argument from conscience:

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/conscience.htm

Every culture has deviants - even atheists

I find it curious that none of these people ever seem to explain why they choose their particular god of choice. Of all the thousands and thousands of gods, and thousands of morality codes those gods have bestowed, why that one?

Can you provide any evidence of "other gods" proving their word/existence either through action or deed?

No religion can do that, because their only way of verifying or proving "existence" comes only from those within (and they all do that)

For Christians who believe in the Bible, there were acts of miracles and the evidence of God's existence.

Does this sort of proof exist among other religions?

Um. You need to get out more, or take a basic comparative theology course. ALL religions say they're right, and ALL religions have their own "miracles" or internal proof.

I understand other religions and what they believe. Not really sure why you find it necessary to be rude.

Come now. You tried to sneak in the assertion that Christianity had some sort of privileged place among world religions because of "miracles". I'm not the PP, but I agree that was a rather silly (or disingenuous) point. Any other believers who fail to see that distinction?

No, I was merely asking. I think you have that opinion of Christians (which is rightly justified in many cases), but that was not my intention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.

Since we're rational atheists (and because it sounds like the kind of stuff we see from our religious cousins on Facebook all the time) we're going to need a cite on this one.

The atheist blogger who converted:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2012/06/this-is-my-last-post-for-the-patheos-atheist-portal.html

The argument from conscience:

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/conscience.htm

Every culture has deviants - even atheists

I find it curious that none of these people ever seem to explain why they choose their particular god of choice. Of all the thousands and thousands of gods, and thousands of morality codes those gods have bestowed, why that one?

Can you provide any evidence of "other gods" proving their word/existence either through action or deed?

No religion can do that, because their only way of verifying or proving "existence" comes only from those within (and they all do that)

For Christians who believe in the Bible, there were acts of miracles and the evidence of God's existence.

Does this sort of proof exist among other religions?

Um. You need to get out more, or take a basic comparative theology course. ALL religions say they're right, and ALL religions have their own "miracles" or internal proof.

I understand other religions and what they believe. Not really sure why you find it necessary to be rude.

Come now. You tried to sneak in the assertion that Christianity had some sort of privileged place among world religions because of "miracles". I'm not the PP, but I agree that was a rather silly (or disingenuous) point. Any other believers who fail to see that distinction?

No, I was merely asking. I think you have that opinion of Christians (which is rightly justified in many cases), but that was not my intention.

This should provide you with some lengthy reading. Also check out the threaded/branched links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Not the pp, but everything you just described speaks to man's actions. In everything you're saying, when has God's Word changed on the issue?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let me try to put it to you in another way.

Why is a formal religion the only way in which a human can hear "god's word"?

I don't believe it is.

Can God speak directly to a human's heart? Whether the human BELIEVES, or not?

I believe He can and does.

What you call "God's word", derived, apparently, from a formal religion, I call my innate sense of right and wrong.

No, I think we both have the same right/wrong framework. Which just disagree on where we think this innate ability comes from.

I believe atheists are morally superior because many of us know the difference between right and wrong without having to be threatened or forced to believe. We don't need it spoon fed. "God" is in our hearts. How many roving bands of atheists do you see perpetuating St. Batholomew Day massacres?

God gives us free will, so nothing is spoon fed. But I do find it beautiful to know that you have God in your heart.


I believe the PPs point was, If God's word is unchanging, and religion is the way to know God's word, why do so many religions, who articulate and interpret the word of God as God's authority on earth, get it wrong SO often?

Because of free will. While the author of us, God doesn't write our story for us.

Why are you confident that you NOW know and understand God's word? When religion and humans have gotten it wrong so many times before?

I'm not. There is MUCH I don't know. No one knows all when it comes to religion and/or God. Humans have gotten it wrong because we're...human.

Why do you think that religion/faith/belief in God is a superior way in which to know God's word, when religion and humans have gotten it wrong so many times before?

I don't believe that at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.

Since we're rational atheists (and because it sounds like the kind of stuff we see from our religious cousins on Facebook all the time) we're going to need a cite on this one.

The atheist blogger who converted:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2012/06/this-is-my-last-post-for-the-patheos-atheist-portal.html

The argument from conscience:

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/conscience.htm

Every culture has deviants - even atheists

I find it curious that none of these people ever seem to explain why they choose their particular god of choice. Of all the thousands and thousands of gods, and thousands of morality codes those gods have bestowed, why that one?

Can you provide any evidence of "other gods" proving their word/existence either through action or deed?

No religion can do that, because their only way of verifying or proving "existence" comes only from those within (and they all do that)

For Christians who believe in the Bible, there were acts of miracles and the evidence of God's existence.

Does this sort of proof exist among other religions?

Um. You need to get out more, or take a basic comparative theology course. ALL religions say they're right, and ALL religions have their own "miracles" or internal proof.

I understand other religions and what they believe. Not really sure why you find it necessary to be rude.

No, it's clear you don't understand other religions and what they believe. Pointing this out to you is not rude. If you truly think that only YOUR religion has "proof" of it being "right," you clearly demonstrate a profound lack of objective thinking. Religions are religions because they believe them to be true - they all have their own personal "proof." If they didn't, then they'd just be opinions. You clearly are incapable of thinking beyond your own bubble of your specific faith.

I said nothing about being right, nor that my religions was "the only way". I merely was asking about evidence of miracles, existence, etc.

But again, your tone has turned from a basic debate to one of hostility so I'll choose to not respond to this particular sub-thread again.

You were trying to casually say "but other religions don't have proof of their truth, only mine does." I'm sorry, but I don't think you're that naive. And if you really are, it stands that you need get outside of your cornered niche and explore more.

Again, you are wrong. Whether you choose to accept it is your choice, but I'm telling you sincerely that that was not my intention, nor was it what I was saying.

[Anonymous]

Study on how religion helps criminals rationalize their actions. http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/03/08/faith_based_prison_programs_new_study_suggests_religion_may_help_criminals.html

[Anonymous]

Why do you think that religion/faith/belief in God is a superior way in which to know God's word, when religion and humans have gotten it wrong so many times before?

I don't believe that at all.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ok so why are you bothering with this thread? This thread is about, How can an atheist possibly have a moral compass???? Oh atheists, where or where can you possibly be obtaining moral guidance!!! Please help us understand! How can you possibly not eat little children in your big black cauldrons if you don't listen to Jesus???